2340 réponses à ce sujet

[erilben]

Silfren wrote...

Revered mothers don't have the right; it belongs either to the Grand Cleric or the Divine.  What Gaider confirmed is that in such a situation as Meredith was in, where the Grand Cleric was not available to grant the Right, and the Divine was far away, the Knight Commander has the right to determine that it is too serious an emergency to go through the normal process.  One would hope that investigative safeguards are in place to ensure that Knight Commanders don't simply use that clause to annul a Circle without adequate justification, but in any event, it's a rational provision to allow for circumstances that don't allow for the luxury of waiting through the time involved in requesting for authorization and receiving it

Meredith wasn't willing to go against the Grand Cleric because she could not legally do so without the Divine's consent.  That's what she didn't invoke the Right while Elthina was alive--I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.  She actually DID have the right to act on her own authority when Anders created the situation he did, but prior to that, she had no grounds to declare Annulment when the Grand Cleric refused it, and the Divine had not yet overruled the Grand Cleric's decision. 

There's the link above saying without Elthina and no sucessors, Meredith had authority. There's another quote somewhere about there being no "ranking revered mothers"

But if this isn't true that no other priests needed to be killed other than Elthina, Anders is even worse. He just needed to kill Elthina, and then Meredith could invoke her unjust Annulment. The Circles react over the Annulment, not because a Chantry blows up.

[Dessalines]

I killed him. It is not even a gray issue. If he did a bomb that killed Meredith, but still would have caused the remaining Templars to want to kill all the mages, then it might be a harder decision, but he didn't do that. He killed an old woman who choose not to run to safety, but stay to be a calming influence in her city. He had no qualms making you an accessory in his crimes. Yeah, he is in my top five Dragon Age characters I am glad my character killed.

[Wolfsee]

I have too. It was easy. I also let him live to the ire of some in my party.

[TEWR]

erilben wrote...

There's the link above saying without Elthina and no sucessors, Meredith had authority. There's another quote somewhere about there being no "ranking revered mothers"

But if this isn't true that no other priests needed to be killed other than Elthina, Anders is even worse. He just needed to kill Elthina, and then Meredith could invoke her unjust Annulment. The Circles react over the Annulment, not because a Chantry blows up.

I think there's a bit of confusion going on here between the various posters -- you, Silfren, Knight of Dane, any others.

Here's how it works:

The Grand Cleric is the only person with default authority on the RoA's necessity in a certain area. The only person who can have more authority then her on a matter is the Divine, and that's only if she's notified of problems in a Circle and says "Yes, based on what you've told me it sounds necessary".

Which poses its own problems unless the Divine visits, but meh.

Should the Grand Cleric die/be assassinated/fall off a cliff, I imagine that the Chantry she was Grand Cleric of would debate on who should succeed her among all of the Revered Mothers.

As such, whoever succeeds the Grand Cleric upon her death is the new Grand Cleric.

But, if all of the priests of a Chantry are eliminated, default authority on the necessity of an RoA goes to the Knight-Commander of the Circle, as he/she is the most noteworthy person in the Chantry line of command -- in the specific area, that is -- should such a thing occur

Anders' act was the last one. He eliminated the priests of the Chantry -- maybe barring any few that were outside in the city itself, assuming any were -- and as a result default legal authority passed to Meredith, wherein she called for the RoA.

The Divine still has more authority then her -- and as Gaider said, there is an argument to be made saying Meredith should've waited -- but legally, Meredith was within her rights. She was wrong though to call for such a thing on a moral, ethical, and mental level.

Essentially, here's how it works:

1) Divine has authority over all of the Circles' RoAs
2) Grand Cleric has authority over certain Circles' RoAs, depending on how many they oversee.
3) In the event of the Grand Cleric dying but other priests are around, someone succeeds the Grand Cleric and takes up the mantle of said role.
4) In the event that all priests in an area are killed/missing/whatever, default legal authority goes to the Knight-Commander. Said person should, on a moral level, await instructions from the Divine but can legally call for an RoA. Whether calling for it was right or not is something that would be discussed later, as Gaider said the Divine might do.

[thats1evildude]

There must be some special circumstances that allow the KC to call the Rite without the Grand Cleric's permission. If Elthina had been kidnapped by blood mages and held hostage in the Gallows, I can't imagine the templars glumly shrugging their shoulders and sitting on their hands.

[Urzon]

If the Grand Cleric has been kidnapped or missing, her heir/successor/highest ranking Mother would mostly like take over her duties until she is returned or declared dead. Once she has returned, she would most likely have to undergo an evaluation on whether she is able to return to duty or not. If she is declared dead, the Mothers and/or clergy would have to decide on a successor, if the Grand Cleric didn't appoint one. I sure the Divine could appoint one herself to the area, if she so desired as well.

If you was kidnapped, like you said, by blood mages, the decision to enact the RoA would most likely be up to the acting Grand Cleric, either her heir or highest ranking Mother. They would likely have to factor in the risk of said blood mages to the local population, risking the Grand Cleric's life, and whether those blood mages are actually apart of the Circle to call an RoA (the biggest factor).

Modifié par Urzon, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:52 .

[Knight of Dane]

Urzon wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Anders wouldn't call for allies if he worked the rebellion like this. He would have to slowly build a squad then into a unit and slowly spread influence and fame. He would have to sniff out the people he need to get it going and then eventually lead it to greater influence in the underworld.

He did, and it's called the Mage Underground. From their codex...



To Knight-Commander Meredith, re. the so-called "Mage Underground"
Every Circle in Thedas suffers from individual mages who rebel and attempt to flee. These apostates are usually found and returned to the Circle or mercifully killed if they have fallen to demonic temptation. Until now, I have never served anywhere that the populace does not fully cooperate in hunting these rebels.
Here in Kirkwall, citizens actually help rebel mages escape. Escaped apostates have survived their freedom long enough to form the "the mage underground," a network that feeds and shelters escapees and even transports apostates into remote areas of the Free Marches and beyond our easy reach.
As of late, the movement has grown bolder, sending raiding parties into the Gallows in an attempt to break out mages who lack the skills or willpower to escape on their own. This is a grave concern. My recommendation is to fight back, both physically and in turning the minds and hearts of their supporters against them.
—Knight-Captain Cullen

It helped mages, but not their situation persay. The people in Kirkwall helped the Underground because they had a mage relative, and they knew how the templars treated them. It didn't help that they were actually sending raiding parties into the Gallows. Which would only make the Mage/Templar conflict (for Kirkwall at least) worse for both parties. It showed that the mages were getting much more aggressive in their tactics, much like Anders was, and it makes the templars much more desperate to maintain control over the situation.

If anything, the underground in Ferelden had a much better method in mind, which was much more subtle.

Yes I know what Anders did, but his problem at this point was that he was already part of a team and he wasn't actually looking to start the rebellion this way, it was only a way to help every deserado get a run on.
If he wasn't with Hawke and was actually trying to build a small force he would have had a base of operation besides that obvious clinic of his.

[Knight of Dane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

The Warden ends the blight doing it like this, Shepard saves the Galaxy.
The idea was just in front of him and yet he keeps on writing that stupid memento as if anyone is going to read what a unknown apostate thinks about anything.

Considering The Warden can vary, depending on the player, there's no set model. My Surana Warden agreed with the Libertarians in the Magi Origin, helped the Mages' Collective protect apostates (even through violent means), asked for his people to be emancipated from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, and argued with Wynne in the City of Amaranthine that mages need to seek out their freedom even in the face of violence from the Chantry (which is Wynne's argument against breaking free from the Chantry, as she argues that the Chantry would rather kill all the mages rather than see them free), because they would never be liberated otherwise.

I know, I played the game 37 times Lobsel, and what I was talking about was not the way the warden build and army but that s/he did at all.

[LobselVith8]

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering The Warden can vary, depending on the player, there's no set model. My Surana Warden agreed with the Libertarians in the Magi Origin, helped the Mages' Collective protect apostates (even through violent means), asked for his people to be emancipated from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, and argued with Wynne in the City of Amaranthine that mages need to seek out their freedom even in the face of violence from the Chantry (which is Wynne's argument against breaking free from the Chantry, as she argues that the Chantry would rather kill all the mages rather than see them free), because they would never be liberated otherwise.

I know, I played the game 37 times Lobsel, and what I was talking about was not the way the warden build and army but that s/he did at all.

An army can be built on the premise that Anders and a pro-mage Hawke "showed that the templars could be defied." Anders even suggests that apostate Hawke is the leaders mages have been waiting centuries for. As we see, the Circles broke free from the Chantry, defying Chantry dominance over their lives.

[Knight of Dane]

Of course, I never said that Anders couldn't build and army as the ending is, just that I think it's an unecessary action blowing up that place, or at least with its people inside.

[mopotter]

In a couple of games, yes. Even one where I romanced him. Of course I also have a couple where we ran off together after the last fight.

[SirGladiator]

Its true that Meredith had no authority to declare the 'Right of Annulment', thats why she was asking for it earlier, from her superiors, because she didn't have that authority. She 'declared' it at the end to try to justify what she was doing, but it was like somebody simply 'declaring' they are now the King of England. What she was doing at the end of the game was simply attempting to murder mages, I guess because that idol, and Anders, had driven her crazy. But this thread is about Anders and his evil deeds. He was a terrorist and I always killed him in each playthrough. Even if his actions hadn't caused Meredith to lose whatever control she had left over her own mind, what he did was blow up a building and murder all the innocent people in it, He wanted more innocent people to die from Meredith's subsequent actions, and he got his wish for that as well, but he certainly wasn't around to see it during my games, he was put down like the rabid dog that he was. You can debate whether Anders would've done what he did without Justice, but his actions are the bottom line, and there's no way to justify letting him live, and no reason to want to.

[Renmiri1]

SirGladiator wrote...
 
his actions are the bottom line, and there's no way to justify letting him live, and no reason to want to.

Actually there are reasons...

He himself wants to escape the pain of seeing inocents die and avoid looking at the face of the friends he just betrayed with his actions. He wants to die. Does he want to be a martyr ? Perhaps.

My Hawke lets him live and forces him to see the chaos he created. And denies him the role of martyr for the mage cause.

[Wifflebottom]

I was screwing him and I needed a healer so nope didn't kill him.

[Silfren]

erilben wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Revered mothers don't have the right; it belongs either to the Grand Cleric or the Divine.  What Gaider confirmed is that in such a situation as Meredith was in, where the Grand Cleric was not available to grant the Right, and the Divine was far away, the Knight Commander has the right to determine that it is too serious an emergency to go through the normal process.  One would hope that investigative safeguards are in place to ensure that Knight Commanders don't simply use that clause to annul a Circle without adequate justification, but in any event, it's a rational provision to allow for circumstances that don't allow for the luxury of waiting through the time involved in requesting for authorization and receiving it

Meredith wasn't willing to go against the Grand Cleric because she could not legally do so without the Divine's consent.  That's what she didn't invoke the Right while Elthina was alive--I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.  She actually DID have the right to act on her own authority when Anders created the situation he did, but prior to that, she had no grounds to declare Annulment when the Grand Cleric refused it, and the Divine had not yet overruled the Grand Cleric's decision. 

There's the link above saying without Elthina and no sucessors, Meredith had authority. There's another quote somewhere about there being no "ranking revered mothers"

But if this isn't true that no other priests needed to be killed other than Elthina, Anders is even worse. He just needed to kill Elthina, and then Meredith could invoke her unjust Annulment. The Circles react over the Annulment, not because a Chantry blows up.

My only point was the right is not provided to revered mothers.  They are below Grand Clerics in rank.  The codex on the Right of Annulment states that the Divine who created the Right gave it to Grand Clerics.  Gaider's own quote also says NOTHING about revered mothers.  The right extends to Grand Clerics, the Divine, and, when the former two are unavailable or practically inaccessible, Knight Commanders.  I have no idea offhand what the process is for selecting a new Grand Cleric from among the revered mothers, whether it's a question of voting or if the Grand Cleric hand-picks one, or what.  But yes, Anders' action made that point entirely moot when he removed not only the Grand Cleric but all potential successors. 

The Grand Cleric was the specific target, sure, but I don't agree that other priests were somehow innocent even if they weren't part of a line of succession.  By nature of BEING priests of the Chantry, they are full participants in the Chantry's systemic oppression of mages, regardless of whether they hold rank and authority.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 septembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Renmiri1]

Indeed! Sister / Mother Petrice proves how "innocent" some of them werre

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Actually there are reasons...

He himself wants to escape the pain of seeing inocents die and avoid looking at the face of the friends he just betrayed with his actions. He wants to die. Does he want to be a martyr ? Perhaps.

My Hawke lets him live and forces him to see the chaos he created. And denies him the role of martyr for the mage cause.

What's interesting is that, for my apostate Hawke, Anders didn't seem to have that mindset. He seemed surprised that my apostate Hawke spared his life, thinking he wouldn't spare Anders when his back was against the wall. In fact, that's when Anders says at the Gallows, "I underestimated you, Hawke. I really thought, when it was put to the test, you'd have to kill me. You truly are the leader we've have been waiting centuries for."

Everyone sees this incident differently, but for Anders, he wants the world to change.

[Fallstar]

thats1evildude wrote...

There must be some special circumstances that allow the KC to call the Rite without the Grand Cleric's permission. If Elthina had been kidnapped by blood mages and held hostage in the Gallows, I can't imagine the templars glumly shrugging their shoulders and sitting on their hands.

Why would that require the rite of annulment? The rite of annulemt is the execution of every circle mage, not just the group who hypothetically kidnapped Elthina.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Actually there are reasons...

He himself wants to escape the pain of seeing inocents die and avoid looking at the face of the friends he just betrayed with his actions. He wants to die. Does he want to be a martyr ? Perhaps.

My Hawke lets him live and forces him to see the chaos he created. And denies him the role of martyr for the mage cause.

What's interesting is that, for my apostate Hawke, Anders didn't seem to have that mindset. He seemed surprised that my apostate Hawke spared his life, thinking he wouldn't spare Anders when his back was against the wall. In fact, that's when Anders says at the Gallows, "I underestimated you, Hawke. I really thought, when it was put to the test, you'd have to kill me. You truly are the leader we've have been waiting centuries for."

Everyone sees this incident differently, but for Anders, he wants the world to change.

Yeah woe to those who get sacrificed along the way but hey it's all for the "greater good" right?

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's interesting is that, for my apostate Hawke, Anders didn't seem to have that mindset. He seemed surprised that my apostate Hawke spared his life, thinking he wouldn't spare Anders when his back was against the wall. In fact, that's when Anders says at the Gallows, "I underestimated you, Hawke. I really thought, when it was put to the test, you'd have to kill me. You truly are the leader we've have been waiting centuries for."

Everyone sees this incident differently, but for Anders, he wants the world to change.

Y

eah woe to those who get sacrificed along the way but hey it's all for the "greater good" right?

If it ends the enslavement of millions of men, women, and children across Thedas from nearly a thousand years of brutal oppression, including a process that has their humanity stripped from them so they become "templar puppets."

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's interesting is that, for my apostate Hawke, Anders didn't seem to have that mindset. He seemed surprised that my apostate Hawke spared his life, thinking he wouldn't spare Anders when his back was against the wall. In fact, that's when Anders says at the Gallows, "I underestimated you, Hawke. I really thought, when it was put to the test, you'd have to kill me. You truly are the leader we've have been waiting centuries for."

Everyone sees this incident differently, but for Anders, he wants the world to change.

Y

eah woe to those who get sacrificed along the way but hey it's all for the "greater good" right?

If it ends the enslavement of millions of men, women, and children across Thedas from nearly a thousand years of brutal oppression, including a process that has their humanity stripped from them so they become "templar puppets."

Yeah real easy to say when YOU are'nt making the sacrifice isn't it?

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If it ends the enslavement of millions of men, women, and children across Thedas from nearly a thousand years of brutal oppression, including a process that has their humanity stripped from them so they become "templar puppets."

Yeah real easy to say when YOU are'nt making the sacrifice isn't it?

I tend not to join organizations that participate in slavery.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If it ends the enslavement of millions of men, women, and children across Thedas from nearly a thousand years of brutal oppression, including a process that has their humanity stripped from them so they become "templar puppets."

Yeah real easy to say when YOU are'nt making the sacrifice isn't it?

I tend not to join organizations that participate in slavery.

You must really hate the world you live in then.