2340 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I killed him because he just kept getting worse. He was an abomination who was losing more and more control with every passing year, becoming increasingly violent and unhinged with every passing "act" of the game. In act 1, fairly soon after his possession, he was still more or less Anders. But as time went on, Anders became less himself and more a vengeful fade creature. I mean, by the end he's blowing up buildings! That's after 10 years. What would another 5 years do to the guy if you spare him? Killing non-mages in the street, deciding that making a second Tevinter is a good idea and that keeping non-mage slaves is how it should be? For goodness sakes, he's already close to being like that as of act 3. Proof? If you give Fenris back to his master, Ander APPROVES of it, he even mocks Fenris as he gets taken and finds it funny. You think act 1 Anders would have done that? No, he wouldn't have. He needed to die because he's becoming a bigger threat to everyone, even other mages, with every passing year because Vengeance is taking more control as time goes on.

It needed to stop. I stopped his slope down to dangerous insanity before it went any further the only way I could... Death. It was a mercy kill, really. The old Anders would have been terrified of what he become like by the time of his death. Act 1 Anders would have begged me to kill his act 3 self. I like Anders. It's just a shame what Vengeance warped him into.

I do wonder if Vengeance is still out there somewhere, just left Anders' body when killed. Think the spirit (demon) will make a reappearance in DA3?

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 janvier 2013 - 05:11 .

[EChatty]

Wow, this has really been an interesting read (yes, I read the entire thread)

I wasn't that interested in the comparisons to RL situations since this is Ferelden/Kirkwall and they don't have the same structure as RL or modern times. However, the discussions and everyone's reasonings have been very interesting reads. I have my own reasons and opinions that I'd like to add, even though this is a pretty old thread.

LobselVith8 and Skadi_the_Evil_Elf both have posted things that I totally agree with. There are so many that I won't even try to quote them or even find them again.

The Chantry is absolutely NOT innocent, they are the organization that is directly responsible for imprisoning (enslaving) mages. They only let them out when they need them to fight for them, then they lock them up until they're needed again.

The Templars are the Chantry's military arm and they keep them under control by addicting them to lyrium. Remember, Alistair said that you don't need lyrium to learn the Templar talents, lyrium just makes them more effective, or so they say....maybe it doesn't even do that...

How do Templars track down runaway mages? Oh yeah, the mage's phylactery. They use lyrium to 'boost' their talents and use the mage's own blood to track them down...sounds awfully close to blood magic to me...hypocritical much?

The Chantry itself is highly hypocritical and not much different from the Qun in that, if a people refuse to allow them to bring Adrastianism in over their religion, well, they simply call an Exalted March. And don't anyone come in here and tell me about all the missionaries and Templars the Dalish killed that sparked it. They told the missionaries to get out, the Chantry then tried to force it by sending in Templars and the Dalish defended themselves. Only when the Chantry brought in the Exalted march and razed the Dales did they force, FORCE, the Dalish to either relent or wander around in small clans to avoid persecution. And the City Elves also have no rights-humans can enter Alienages and pull any Elf females they want to their castles and rape them and not get into trouble, but if said Elf defends herself against the attack, killing the jackass who raped her cousin and a bunch of guards on her way out of the castle then she's labeled a murderer? Yeah, definitely no rights.

Yeah, the Chantry is 'just' a church. NOT. Elthina, being over Meredith's head, could have reined her in. In fact, it wouldn't take much to do that. All she would have had to do was order her and her Templars to behave or she'd cut off their lyrium supply. I mean, the Chantry does control the lyrium supply, so therefore they control the Templars. Why else would they keep a tight fist on it if not to control their drug-addled military?

Elthina was innocent. NOT. She encouraged what Meredith and Alrik were doing with her inaction. Even when confronted with irrefutable evidence of what Alrik did, she, in her typically wimpy fashion, blew it off.

And the Chantry has imprisoned mages for nearly a thousand years....they aren't about to give them their freedom just because someone asks 'Please'. They deny mages basic human rights, the right to have a relationship, marriage, children or the right to walk around outside the Circle without an escort. To the ones who say that the Circle should at least let them have relations or marriages I can only snort in derision. The Chantry does not want mages reproducing, why else would they deny them relations? They rip mage-kids from their families and imprison them in the towers, they rip newborns from mages who become pregnant from either secretly having relations or being raped by Templars and take them to another Circle if they're found with magic, or the Chantry if not. They do nothing about Templars who rape mages, as we saw with Elthina.

In the Kirkwall case, yeah, Meredith couldn't have been unaware of the extra tranquiled mages shuffling around the Gallows mumbling "I belong to Ser Alrik", so her inaction allowed him to continue that even if she publicly forbade him.

Anyway, this long-winded post agrees with Lobsel when he says it's the Chantry who's enslaving the mages and it's why the Templars were created. And I also agree that the Chantry was the logical choice to blow up, whether I agree with it or not. (And I don't, I just agree it's the only choice if the mages are ever going to free themselves from the Chantry)

Another point of contention I have with the Chantry is the liberties they take with Andraste's chant. They removed the stanzas that spoke of Shartan and they interpret the rest of it to suit whatever they want to do. Especially the part that says that the Maker won't come back until the Chant is heard throughout the world. And what Skadi said (and I'm paraphrasing) "OMG, we need to take over the world or we're doomed!" just put a smile on my face.

Oh, and in my two playthroughs back a loooooooooong time ago, I let him live, both times. Of course I didn't have the Exiled Prince at the time so I didn't have to listen to Sebastian's empty threats about burning down Kirkwall (something that wouldn't break my heart anyway since by then I'd grown tired of that hole).

Therefore, when I finish playing through DAO and DAOA + DLC this time around, my next Hawke will side with the mages and tell Sebastian where to stick his threats when I allow Anders to live to see the consequences of his actions.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 01:09 .

[Lazy Jer]

EChatty wrote...

And the City Elves also have no rights-humans can enter Alienages and pull any Elf females they want to their castles and rape them and not get into trouble, but if said Elf defends herself against the attack, killing the jackass who raped her cousin and a bunch of guards on her way out of the castle then she's labeled a murderer? Yeah, definitely no rights.

Back up.  That's not something you can blame on the Chantry.  First of all, it is just as against the law for humans to rape elven women as it is for humans to rape human women.  It's a matter of selective procescution of the crime.  The city government is responsible for that, not the Chantry.  In fact in the scene you're referring to, the only human to stick up for the elves other than Duncan was a Chantry.  The Chantry did more for the elves in that scene then they city guards did.  In fact she did more to stop it at the time then Duncan did.

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

In fact she did more to stop it at the time then Duncan did.

Though I agree with your point that the Chantry cannot be blamed for the events of the CE origin, it should be said that Duncan did more to fix the situation then the Chantry did.

The Chantry's not blameless in how they handled the situation. If they're involved in the political actions of the realm on a huge level -- which they are -- I think that telling Vaughan if he persists with this course of action the Chantry will demand retribution/justice -- and get it.

The fault for the scenario does lie more with the city, but the Chantry's still got some blame on its shoulders.

[Lazy Jer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Though I agree with your point that the Chantry cannot be blamed for the events of the CE origin, it should be said that Duncan did more to fix the situation then the Chantry did.

The Chantry's not blameless in how they handled the situation. If they're involved in the political actions of the realm on a huge level -- which they are -- I think that telling Vaughan if he persists with this course of action the Chantry will demand retribution/justice -- and get it.

The fault for the scenario does lie more with the city, but the Chantry's still got some blame on its shoulders.

Duncan helped after the fact.  He lent his sword and his advice to the city elves.  But while Vaughn was getting ready to kidnap the women he didn't do anything.  He had his reasons, and I'm not pointing fingers and accusing him, but the fact is that the Chantry mother did step up.

In regards to Vaugn.  You do have to look at his character.  Vaugn was the kind of guy who was certain that because of who his daddy was he could get away with murder.  Threats from this Chantry sister would have just been scoffed at.

Furthermore, we also have to remember whatever political the Chantry would have taken became moot.  The CE Warden did not have the time to wait while people with power played chess.  Direct action needed to be taken and the Chantry couldn't do it.

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Vaugn was the kind of guy who was certain that because of who his daddy was he could get away with murder.

Yeah, but Urien is also described as a decent man -- even if he bears no love for the Grey Wardens -- by Duncan. Which tells me that he wouldn't stand for that, upon his return.

Lazy Jer wrote...

Threats from this Chantry sister would have just been scoffed at.

From a no-name lowly sister? More then likely. But I was referring more to someone of the station of Revered Mother, seeing as how the Grand Cleric of Ferelden is at Ostagar.

Lazy Jer wrote...

The CE Warden did not have the time to wait while people with power played chess

True.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 05:29 .

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
The Chantry itself is highly hypocritical and not much different from the Qun in that, if a people refuse to allow them to bring Adrastianism in over their religion, well, they simply call an Exalted March. And don't anyone come in here and tell me about all the missionaries and Templars the Dalish killed that sparked it. They told the missionaries to get out, the Chantry then tried to force it by sending in Templars and the Dalish defended themselves. Only when the Chantry brought in the Exalted march and razed the Dales did they force, FORCE, the Dalish to either relent or wander around in small clans to avoid persecution.

Ok, no.

You can dislike the Chantry all you want but let's at least even attempt to be historically factual and fair.
The Dales existed for 300 years, three centuries when Orlais and other human nations attempted to send missionaries yes, but also traders and diplomats. You know, peacekeeping tools. All of which the elves refused on the ground that humans are a pestilence that kills them just by being near.
Here is the thing, nations that share a border can't afford to ignore each other because border conflicts are common and not at all related to religious differences. Conflicts that could have easily been solved had the elves attempted to extablish diplomatic relations became irreconciliable differences.
I don't know for sure who started it. The elves claim the Chantry sent templars to the Dales. Maybe. The humans claim border conflicts escaled when elves attacked a peaceful human town and butchered the whole population. Less biased, more likely but we don't know for sure.

What we do know for sure is that the elves sacked the town of Red Crossing and then proceeded North to Val-Royeaux, which they eventually sacked, burning and pillaging along the way. Even if the Chantry sent Templars to the Dales, the proper response is to increase border patrol. Not destroy the neighboring nation.
The Chantry only called for an Exhalted March when the elves were nearing Val-Royeaux. These are all historical facts and certainly not "elven self-defense".

Do you know what the Chantry actually FORCED the humans to do? They forced human kingdoms to give refuge to the elves which is something they should be quite thankful for or I suspect the humans would have killed every elf they could get their hands on.

[EChatty]

Refuge. A tiny Alienage where they're all crammed in together and are nothing but second-class citizens which humans do little, if anything to help them. Even Elves who manage to make some coin aren't treated fairly, as the questline with Kelder shows. The system does little to nothing about crimes against Elves (even if it is illegal), but if an elf defends themself against a human and kills that human, plus the guards who try to stop her getting out of the castle, suddenly the City Guard is everywhere.

Also, if the priest actually wanted to help the CE, why didn't she go to the Revered Mother, and if she did, why didn't the Revered Mother do anything about it? Oh, that's right, it's just an elf, not a human.

I understand why Duncan didn't get involved, he explains that, but the Chantry has no excuse for not trying to help those Elves.

And it still doesn't absolve them of what they do to the mages every single day. They corral them in circles, don't allow them any contact with the outside world for the most part (unless they're supervised), don't allow them to marry, have relations or keep their babies if they manage to get pregnant. So tell me how the Chantry is blameless in this? Anders was right to blow up the Chantry, it represented everything that is wrong with Circles and sitting down and discussing it with them won't work, that was tried already and they refuse to discuss it at all. Just like they refuse to speak with you if you say anything contrary to their beliefs, it's just 'Talk to the hand, discussion ended.' instead of trying to convince you that their belief is right.

Oh, and if the Chantry is so concerned about Elves, why did they strike Shartan's chords from the Chant? Why do they  not allow Elven priests, only human? According to the Chantry, all are born under the Maker, so why do they not say anything about the treatment Elves get from humans?

And before you bring up Brother Burkel, why was he asking Hawke's help to start his Chantry instead of the Chantry itself?

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:16 .

[TEWR]

To be precise, according to the latest lore booklet the Chantry did demand the human lands give the Elves a home. The nations decided "Meh, cram them in the worst possible part".

Now, assuming this is to be taken as Word of God on what did happen as opposed to a restating of the beliefs held by people like Sister Petrine, that shows that the Chantry had no part in the Elves being crammed into the Alienages after the Fall of the Dales.

But allowing the Elves to have such a ****ty reputation and lifestyle, even going so far as to eliminate one of the few Elven heroes of note? Well, that is the Chantry's fault. They could do a lot to improve the lives of the Elves.

EChatty wrote...

Even Elves who manage to make some coin aren't treated fairly, as the questline with Kelder shows. The system does little to nothing about crimes against Elves (even if it is illegal), but if an elf defends themself against a human and kills that human, plus the guards who try to stop her getting out of the castle, suddenly the City Guard is everywhere.

Then take a look at how Aveline responds to Elves getting retribution for their sister's rape by a Guardsmen, when they had at first reported it to the Guard. This is the same woman who could've seen firsthand how the Elves don't get treated fairly -- the aforementioned Kelder quest.

The eyes of the law are not nearly so kind to the Elves as they are to humans, racist viewpoint or no.

Aveline's a ******-poor Guard-Captain if you ask me, but that quest isn't the reason that leads me to believe that. It's a whole assortment of other quests where the Guard repeatedly fails to do its job well enough for her to be "a capable leader of the Guard".

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...

Refuge. A tiny Alienage where they're all crammed in together and are nothing but second-class citizens which humans do little, if anything to help them. Even Elves who manage to make some coin aren't treated fairly, as the questline with Kelder shows. The system does little to nothing about crimes against Elves (even if it is illegal), but if an elf defends themself against a human and kills that human, plus the guards who try to stop her getting out of the castle, suddenly the City Guard is everywhere.

Yes, refuge. Or do you think the humans were happy to just welcome elves into their lands after what they did to Orlais as well as the very seat of the Chantry? It's a lot better than being run through with a sword on the spot.

Now, it's true that there are many social inequalities between humans and elves but the blame of that lies as much on the elves as it does on the humans. The humans are not inerested in helping but neither are the elves interested in helping themselves. Whenever an elven family saves enough money to buy an house outside of the alienage, the other elves look at them with pity and scorn rather than, say, help them protect their home from violent humans? Beating humans who are simply trying to pass through on their way to work is also not helping gather sympathy, neither is rioting if an elf takes a human for husband or wife.
Regardless, this is not related to the Chantry at all. Go complain to Cailan, if you want.

Oh and BTW, the human those elves murdered was the only son of a noble. Had it been humans who murdered him, their chances of getting justice would be just a bad as with the elves.

Also, if the priest actually wanted to help the CE, why didn't she go to the Revered Mother, and if she did, why didn't the Revered Mother do anything about it? Oh, that's right, it's just an elf, not a human.

Vaughan picked that moment to indulge in his depravaties exactly because the King, the Grand-Cleric and his father, the only people who could have stopped him, were all half a country away in Ostagar.
At best, the elves could have resorted to Anora but, even if she was willing to go against the son of a noble, she wouldn't have been in time to prevent the rape.

I understand why Duncan didn't get involved, he explains that, but the Chantry has no excuse for not trying to help those Elves.

Son of a noble and their leader being far away are good excuses.
What would you have them do, anyway? Have the templars fight the city guard in the streets of Denerim for an handfull of people?

And it still doesn't absolve them of what they do to the mages every single day. They corral them in circles, don't allow them any contact with the outside world for the most part (unless they're supervised), don't allow them to marry, have relations or keep their babies if they manage to get pregnant. So tell me how the Chantry is blameless in this? Anders was right to blow up the Chantry, it represented everything that is wrong with Circles and sitting down and discussing it with them won't work, that was tried already and they refuse to discuss it at all. Just like they refuse to speak with you if you say anything contrary to their beliefs, it's just 'Talk to the hand, discussion ended.' instead of trying to convince you that their belief is right.

I fully support the Circle System. I am open to debates regarding certain improvement but not, in under any circunstance, its absolution.
Mages are far too dangerous to allow unrestricted freedom. Do you truly believe the treatment of mages and elves is bad in Andrastean Nations? You should see what happens to mundanes in Tevinter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:14 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But allowing the Elves to have such a ****ty reputation and lifestyle, even going so far as to eliminate one of the few Elven heroes of note? Well, that is the Chantry's fault. They could do a lot to improve the lives of the Elves.

Well, the elves had just attempted to destroy an entire nation of humans and sacked the very seat of the Chantry. They were, understandably, angry.
Of course, it has been 700 years. It is well past time to bury the hatchet. That goes for the Dalish too.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:20 .

[EChatty]

Improvements like what? Allowing them to have boy/girlfiriends/wives/husbands/children? Forget that. Anytime that anyone tries to talk to the Chantry about improving the lives of the mages they get shut down. The mage Warden asks that the Circle be freed and the Chantry refuses. That shows that the Chantry will defy the monarchy to keep the mages corralled and not breeding. Why else do you think they don't allow them relations or spouses, they don't want them to breed.

As for Elves, the Chantry does little to help them. And Elves who do manage to get a home outside the Alienage get burned out of it, that's a fact.

And it still doesn't explain why the Chantry only has human priests. Apparently they wouldn't even help Brother Burkel, so he asks the Warden's help to start a Chantry.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:25 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

That goes for the Dalish too.

The problem is that the Chantry's released propaganda on the Dalish labeling them as savages, such that the City Elves believe it. They can't even begin to fathom that maybe the Dalish aren't savage pricks like is claimed -- going so far as to not believe Alarith when he says he was saved by them.

Not for lack of their existence, but for lack of them being nice people.

You're going to have a tough time finding a Dalish Elf that wants to bury the hatchet after their way of life and all around just who they are is being insulted in today's era, when they tend to just pick up their stuff and move if humans come along.

For all the crap the Chantry gives people of different cultures -- labeling them "unenlightened" -- the Chantry is, not surprisingly, the unenlightened group.

And the Dalish did help the human nations fight the Blight -- potentially, anyway -- and Alistair's dialogue implies that it wasn't the Dalish who caused the fall of their third homeland.

MisterJB wrote...

Whenever an elven family saves enough money to buy an house outside of the alienage, the other elves look at them with pity and scorn rather than, say, help them protect their home from violent humans?

I agree with this. The fact that the Elves hold the exact same mindset to City Elves who make a living that the Dalish hold to all City Elves is... sad. It kinda shows that their talk of family ends at the gate.

MisterJB wrote...

Go complain to Cailan, if you want.

Hah! Indeed, the funny thing is, Cailan bears much of the blame as well. For all his talk of being a good and noble king, for the five years he interacted with the commoners he never once bothered to learn about the Alienage.

Apparently because when his guards all but forbid him to enter there, he needed to listen to them. Right.... because the king can't say "No, I need to know all about my city." to his guardsmen and tell them to come along?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:37 .

[EChatty]

I do have a question. Why shouldn't a people who want to be left alone, be left alone? The Dalish, when they settled the Dales, wanted to be left alone. No traders, no missionaries, no humans. They were trying to regain their lost lifespans and their lost lore. Why should they accept traders if they didn't want them? Why accept missionaries when they had their own religion? Were they trying to convert humans to Elven worship? No. But the Chantry was trying to convert them. All they wanted was to be left alone, why couldn't they get that?

You speak of border conflicts, fine, watch your borders, but leave the Elves alone to live as they please as long as they're not bothering you.

Also...what TEWR said, well said!

I never said the Elves were perfect, but human oppression had it's part in making them that way.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:37 .

[MisterJB]

The Dalish ARE savage pricks. Just not to other elves.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...

Improvements like what? Allowing them to have boy/girlfiriends/wives/husbands/children? Forget that. Anytime that anyone tries to talk to the Chantry about improving the lives of the mages they get shut down. The mage Warden asks that the Circle be freed and the Chantry refuses. That shows that the Chantry will defy the monarchy to keep the mages corralled and not breeding. Why else do you think they don't allow them relations or spouses, they don't want them to breed.

Of course they don't want them to breed. The Circle doesn't have an unlimited space and resources. The whole point of it is to minimize the dangers mages represent. Did you really expect the Chantry to simply accept a Circle being "freed" just like that? And inside a kingdom where the monarch can freely use them against other nations? That would be insane.
Which doesn't mean the Chantry is not open to reform. Wynne and Divine Justinia had been working together exactly to achieve this for some time. It's mages like Anders and Adrian who ruin it for everyone.
For instance, the mages of the White Spire had the privilege of visiting the city of Val-Royeaux and even buy personal propriety. Take a guess at who scared the templars into imposing harsher restrictions.

As for Elves, the Chantry does little to help them. And Elves who do manage to get a home outside the Alienage get burned out of it, that's a fact.

I know, I mentioned it. The other elves' inaction doesn't help either.

And it still doesn't explain why the Chantry only has human priests. Apparently they wouldn't even help Brother Burkel, so he asks the Warden's help to start a Chantry.

The priesthood is open to everyone. Brother Burkel is a dwarve and there are at least two more in Orzammar and you receive a letter from an elf who became a priest in Orlais in DAII.
There's just a greater number of human priests simply because humans are more numerous and devout.
The Chantry threatened Orzammar once dwarven converts were being murdered in peaceful protests.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The Dalish ARE savage pricks. Just not to other elves.

They're hostile with their words.

That alone does not make one a savage. Rude, perhaps, but not a savage.

Actually... no it's more like they're just really ****ing blunt.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...

I do have a question. Why shouldn't a people who want to be left alone, be left alone? The Dalish, when they settled the Dales, wanted to be left alone. No traders, no missionaries, no humans. They were trying to regain their lost lifespans and their lost lore. Why should they accept traders if they didn't want them? Why accept missionaries when they had their own religion? Were they trying to convert humans to Elven worship? No. But the Chantry was trying to convert them. All they wanted was to be left alone, why couldn't they get that?

You speak of border conflicts, fine, watch your borders, but leave the Elves alone to live as they please as long as they're not bothering you.

They're a nation, they can't afford to be "left alone". Isolationism breeds fear which breeds hostility.
There's a reasons trading and diplomacy are peacekeeping tools. Honestly, would have really hurt them to let go of their xenophobia for a little bit? It's not like there were human immigrants threatening to overwhelm the elven population. The humans just wanted to preach to whoever would hear them, share resources and resolve their border conflicts through diplomacy. If you don't try to create friends of your neighbors, don't cry foul if they become your enemies instead.
The Jenova's witnesses that wake you up every Sunday morning might be annoying but the proper response is not to burn their home to the ground.

[EChatty]

MisterJB wrote...

And it still doesn't explain why the Chantry only has human priests. Apparently they wouldn't even help Brother Burkel, so he asks the Warden's help to start a Chantry.

The priesthood is open to everyone. Brother Burkel is a dwarve and there are at least two more in Orzammar and you receive a letter from an elf who became a priest in Orlais in DAII.
There's just a greater number of human priests simply because humans are more numerous and devout.
The Chantry threatened Orzammar once dwarven converts were being murdered in peaceful protests.

Read my entire quote there. I know Brother Burkel is a Dwarf, so why did the Chantry not help him? That's my point.

[EChatty]

MisterJB wrote...

EChatty wrote...

I do have a question. Why shouldn't a people who want to be left alone, be left alone? The Dalish, when they settled the Dales, wanted to be left alone. No traders, no missionaries, no humans. They were trying to regain their lost lifespans and their lost lore. Why should they accept traders if they didn't want them? Why accept missionaries when they had their own religion? Were they trying to convert humans to Elven worship? No. But the Chantry was trying to convert them. All they wanted was to be left alone, why couldn't they get that?

You speak of border conflicts, fine, watch your borders, but leave the Elves alone to live as they please as long as they're not bothering you.

They're a nation, they can't afford to be "left alone". Isolationism breeds fear which breeds hostility.
There's a reasons trading and diplomacy are peacekeeping tools. Honestly, would have really hurt them to let go of their xenophobia for a little bit? It's not like there were human immigrants threatening to overwhelm the elven population. The humans just wanted to preach to whoever would hear them, share resources and resolve their border conflicts through diplomacy. If you don't try to create friends of your neighbors, don't cry foul if they become your enemies instead.
The Jenova's witnesses that wake you up every Sunday morning might be annoying but the proper response is not to burn their home to the ground.

Bolding mine. That's exactly right, you ask them to leave, which is what the Dalish did. And look what it got them.

If you notice, I said that if they're not bothering you, why send people over there if they've already indicated that they want to be left alone? You can't force your morals, or whatever else you might think they need, onto them. If they're not bothering anyone, why not leave them to it? It's their land, their nation, if they want to be isolated, let them be isolated.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:53 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They're hostile with their words.

That alone does not make one a savage. Rude, perhaps, but not a savage.

Actually... no it's more like they're just really ****ing blunt.

They vary, sure. Not everyone is Vellana but even Marethary remarks that honesty is rare in a human. "Hawke: F*ck you too, lady. Go climb the mountain yourself."
But on the whole, they are very hostile to humans. Even Fenris, an elf, doesn't like them.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

There's a reasons trading and diplomacy are peacekeeping tools. Honestly, would have really hurt them to let go of their xenophobia for a little bit

A few things to note.

As I've said before in the past when you and I have had this discussion, the problem is that the Chantry has never stopped expanding its influence. Nowhere in their history have they been capable of letting other people be who they want to be.

They claim it's "for the Maker" but I saw through that in a Peloponnesian minute. It's just for more political clout.

Second, the Elves at one point did interact well enough with the Dwarves during the time of Arlathan. They were friendly with each other.

So if the human lands had sent... say... Dwarves, the Elves might've opened their borders to merchants and diplomats.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
Bolding mine. That's exactly right, you ask them to leave, which is what the Dalish did. And look what it got them.

You seem to be forgetting that the elves sacked the capital of Orlais. That is not asking to leave.

EChatty wrote...
Read my entire quote there. I know Brother Burkel is a Dwarf, so why did the Chantry not help him? That's my point.

I
did. I then showed that by threatening Orzammar once dwarven converts
are killed, the Chantry is shown to care for their dwarven faithfull.

[EChatty]

*Applauds TEWR*

Well said. And I agree totally.

The Chantry was trying to convert them because they can't stand anyone not being under their influence. That's my take on it and if anyone has another take on why they Chantry was trying to force their religion on the Elves I'll gladly hear it.

And to JB...I know they threatened an Exalted March AFTER the Warden helped Burkel. What I'm asking is why the Chantry never helped him BEGIN his Chantry?

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:57 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

They vary, sure. Not everyone is Vellana but even Marethary remarks that honesty is rare in a human. "Hawke: F*ck you too, lady. Go climb the mountain yourself."
But on the whole, they are very hostile to humans. Even Fenris, an elf, doesn't like them.

But they rarely act on their hostility, and if they do they're reprimanded for it by the Keepers.

Also, bear in mind what Velanna's going through. While she could've easily found out the truth of the situation if she had investigated, her sister went missing.

Rational thought went out the window that happened. People rarely keep a hold of their senses when their family goes missing mysteriously.

Now, her going "no skin off my back" long afterwards is bad, but IIRC she can change her stance on that matter at some point in time. Perhaps it was dialogue with Justice?

She also evolves from hating humans to helping them, if the right conditions are met.