2340 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
As I've said before in the past when you and I have had this discussion, the problem is that the Chantry has never stopped expanding its influence. Nowhere in their history have they been capable of letting other people be who they want to be.

They claim it's "for the Maker" but I saw through that in a Peloponnesian minute. It's just for more political clout.

Would that be so bad? In what negative ways does the Chantry affects the society it exists in?
Regardless, the Chantry preaches. The elves would only listen if they wanted to.

Second, the Elves at one point did interact well enough with the Dwarves during the time of Arlathan. They were friendly with each other.

So if the human lands had sent... say... Dwarves, the Elves might've opened their borders to merchants and diplomats.

Probrably not if they came representing human interests. And it's still xenophobia against humans from the elves.

Sure, the Tevinters enslaved them but they did the same to other humans and Andraste freed them.

[EChatty]

The Chantry is not some benevolent church, if a nation won't accept their religion then they attempt to force it on them. The Dalish told them to leave, that they wanted no Chantry in the Dales, so did the Chantry leave them to their own religion? No, they shoved it down their throat.

[TEWR]

In what negative ways does the Chantry affects the society it exists in?

Intolerance, for one.

Loss of Mages in a culture where they're important, for another. One should also note that the Keepers of the clans are descended from the ruling lords of Halamshiral.

And the ruling lords happened to be Mages.

I'm sure the Chantry got its knickers in a twist on seeing that happen.

Probrably not if they came representing human interests

Trade, no. Diplomacy, it would depend on what was being discussed.

And it's still xenophobia against humans from the elves.

But it would be them at least working on a compromise that benefits both nations. The humans can interact with the Elves in a fashion, while the Elves can still attempt to regain their immortality.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:04 .

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
The Chantry was trying to convert them
because they can't stand anyone not being under their influence. That's
my take on it and if anyone has another take on why they Chantry was
trying to force their religion on the Elves I'll gladly hear it.

And the elves were unwilling to even listen because they believe humans are a pestilence. How is that better?

EChatty wrote...
And to JB...I know they threatened an Exalted March AFTER the Warden helped Burkel. What I'm asking is why the Chantry never helped him BEGIN his Chantry?

Ok, how do you suggest they should have helped?

[TEWR]

EChatty wrote...

What I'm asking is why the Chantry never helped him BEGIN his Chantry?

I wanna know why the Dwarves let Burkel in Orzammar in the first place, if they knew what he was trying to preach and knew they weren't going to accept the idea.

[EChatty]

And to bring the subject to Anders for a moment, we really aren't in a position to judge him. Think about it. Half your companions in DAO are criminals/untrustworthy.

Sten: Murdered an entire family because someone stole his sword and he KNEW the family didn't have it, he just 'panicked' and killed them

Leliana: Spy/assassin hiding out in a Chantry.

Morrigan: Daughter of an abomination and an apostate.

In Awakenings there's Velanna: Serial killer.

Once you find out what these people did, do you expel them from your group? I doubt even one in a hundred players would.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EChatty wrote...

What I'm asking is why the Chantry never helped him BEGIN his Chantry?

I wanna know why the Dwarves let Burkel in Orzammar in the first place, if they knew what he was trying to preach and knew they weren't going to accept the idea.

There were numerous dwarven converts, in fact. So many that it angered more conservative elements of Orzammar.
Maybe he just encoutered sympathetic guards or the Shaperate simply has enough sense to not want to ****** off the dominant race in the world.

[EChatty]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EChatty wrote...

What I'm asking is why the Chantry never helped him BEGIN his Chantry?

I wanna know why the Dwarves let Burkel in Orzammar in the first place, if they knew what he was trying to preach and knew they weren't going to accept the idea.

They didn't think he'd get permission from the Shaperate. And he didn't, until the Warden comes along and helps.

Personally, my current Warden is ignoring him.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...

The Chantry is not some benevolent church, if a nation won't accept their religion then they attempt to force it on them. The Dalish told them to leave, that they wanted no Chantry in the Dales, so did the Chantry leave them to their own religion? No, they shoved it down their throat.

First of all, expansionism does not make something not benevolent.

Second, sending missionaries does not constitute as shoving religion down one's throat.

[EChatty]

MisterJB wrote...

EChatty wrote...

The Chantry is not some benevolent church, if a nation won't accept their religion then they attempt to force it on them. The Dalish told them to leave, that they wanted no Chantry in the Dales, so did the Chantry leave them to their own religion? No, they shoved it down their throat.

First of all, expansionism does not make something not benevolent.

Second, sending missionaries does not constitute as shoving religion down one's throat.

As for your second, when the Elves kicked the missionaries out, they sent in Templars. I call that shoving it down their throat.

I wouldn't mind them expanding, if they weren't attempting to usurp the religion already there, especially after they were told to get out in the first place.

[TEWR]

EChatty wrote...

Serial killer.

Mass murderer would be more appropriate, I'd think.

Regardless, Hawke doesn't know those people well enough. He's met Sten and Leliana, but he doesn't really know them.

Fenris sought retribution and stopped there. Aveline was a Guard-Captain. Varric was, at most, a cunning thief but rarely resorted to murder. Sebastian's the same as Fenris. Carver's a ******, Bethany's innocent.

The only one that comes close to being applicable is Isabela, whom Hawke can sell out to the Qunari.

Now, while I agree with Anders' intent and his actions, I do in fact kill him. Mostly, to ensure the support of a city-state in the coming war.

Anders is one mage and he's already told Hawke how he made the formula. Sebastian is prince to a city-state and has a walking death machine as a friend (Hawke), so he could easily take the city-state.

Seems clear enough to me. 15,000 soldiers or one Mage? Not to mention that by killing Anders, you could ensure more people flock to Hawke's banner because Hawke will have seen justice done when Meredith didn't care to.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

There were numerous dwarven converts, in fact. So many that it angered more conservative elements of Orzammar.

Only if he's helped.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

No. I romanced Anders.

I was trying to gain 100% Friendship with everyone on my party,so I chose the "Heart Option" with everyone, but then, Anders was the first who became interested in me...

I sided with the Mages, because I don't think that they should be punished by what some did. Altough I became highly disappointed by Orsino using Blood Magic, even if I sided with him

[EChatty]

I'm not arguing for or against killing Anders. I have nothing against anyone who wants to kill him, that's their choice.

I do have a lot against people who say that the Chantry is innocent in it all when it obviously isn't. It's the very institution that's enslaving mages, the Templars work for the Chantry, the Chantry keeps the Templars under control by addicting them to lyrium. Tell me how benevolent that is.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
As for your second, when the Elves kicked the missionaries out, they sent in Templars. I call that shoving it down their throat.

I wouldn't mind them expanding, if they weren't attempting to usurp the religion already there, especially after they were told to get out in the first place.

If you believe the elves. And their response was to murder innocents.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
I do have a lot against people who say that the Chantry is innocent in it all when it obviously isn't. It's the very institution that's enslaving mages, the Templars work for the Chantry, the Chantry keeps the Templars under control by addicting them to lyrium. Tell me how benevolent that is.

Keeping dangerous people off the streets while providing them with living conditions millions in our world would kill for? I'd say that is benevolent.

[EChatty]

Well, you have your opinion on it and I have mine, both of us are entitled to our own opinion. It's unlikely we're going to change the other's mind so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[EChatty]

MisterJB wrote...

EChatty wrote...
I do have a lot against people who say that the Chantry is innocent in it all when it obviously isn't. It's the very institution that's enslaving mages, the Templars work for the Chantry, the Chantry keeps the Templars under control by addicting them to lyrium. Tell me how benevolent that is.

Keeping dangerous people off the streets while providing them with living conditions millions in our world would kill for? I'd say that is benevolent.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this too. Giving them absolutely no contact with the outside world is what hurts them more than protects them, it's what makes them apathetic and not care about their fellow mundanes.

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this too. Giving them absolutely no contact with the outside world is what hurts them more than protects them, it's what makes them apathetic and not care about their fellow mundanes.

Because all criminals are only people who never had contact with fellow humans?

[EChatty]

And you appear to endorse caging people for something they MIGHT do, right? Because it's what the Chantry does to mages.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

EChatty wrote...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this too. Giving them absolutely no contact with the outside world is what hurts them more than protects them, it's what makes them apathetic and not care about their fellow mundanes.

Because all criminals are only people who never had contact with fellow humans?

Mages typically don't have contact with mundanes because they're taken away from society between the ages of 6-12. I'd wager that for the 6-7 year olds, they might not even remember those interactions after a time.

But the only Mages that get to interact with their families are the affluential ones. Those who have money inevitably get the Chantry's favor and get to interact with their children. Mages like Finn, or the codex from MotA, or Bethany.

Contrast common Mages like Anders who hasn't seen his mother in decades or mages like Huon who face a double whammy of being a Mage and an Elf -- or even Evelina whose adopted children weren't cared for at all when the Templars could've just passed the info along to Elthina since that's a Chantry matter -- and you've got corruption in the ranks.

The Mages with ties to wealthy and influential citizens can buy rights the rest of the Mages don't get.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:40 .

[EChatty]

Thank you TEWR

[EChatty]

EntropicAngel wrote...

EChatty wrote...

And you appear to endorse caging people for something they MIGHT do, right? Because it's what the Chantry does to mages.

What's with your emotional buzzwords? They are not "caging" anyone. They live in a warm place, with food pretty much always, and they don't have to do anything. They don't work.

That isn't "caging" by any definition. You're really hurting your argument by using such biased terminology.

They're not allowed to leave without special permission. A gilded cage is still a cage. The entire Circle is one big gilded cage when you can't leave it. They're not allowed to have relations/spouses/children, like everyone else who isn't a mage, so you tell me, is it a cage or not?

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:44 .