2340 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I see him as an emancipator of mages. An abolitionist. He destroyed the building of an organization that enslaved mages for nearly a thousand years. You're welcome to disagree, of course. Anders is the new Loghain, apparently.

No, he didn't destroy a building.  He killed people when he destroyed a building.  Maybe that's the point that you and I are going to be bound to disagree on.

LOL at him being the new Loghain.  I was thinking Meredith was the new Loghain. 

[Brockololly]

I really hate how Anders was handled in DA2. He might as well have been a totally different character. If he started out as Awakening jokester Anders and through the game became Terrorist-Idiot Anders that might have made that last choice harder. As it stood, the new voice actor lacked the charm of Awakening Anders and tossing in the whole Justice/Vengeance angle at the start just made him too little like he was when we last saw him in Awakening.

So even my moderate Hawke murdered that idiot. He made Meredith seem rational.

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[Dr. Nexas]

Anders was a murderer and an idiot who intentionally started a war that will end with either stronger subjugation of mages, or a second Imperium. I wish I could done more than just kill him, but thats all I could do.

[LobselVith8]

His actions put an end to slavery with the Circles emancipating themselves. That hardly seems idiotic to me. He destroyed a building with members of an organization that was enslaving his people for centuries.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

His actions put an end to slavery with the Circles emancipating themselves. That hardly seems idiotic to me. He destroyed a building with members of an organization that was enslaving his people for centuries.

And how many people were simply attending services/praying in that building?  How many servants were simply working there at the time?  How many novices or trainees were in that building?  How many people were there simply to deliver more candles or a side of beef?

Terrorism is NOT acceptable.  Killing innocent people to prove a point is NOT acceptable.

[schalafi]

Anders in DA2 was *not* the Anders of Awakening. He made a fatal mistake in letting Justice share his body, and I think he regretted it, once Justice turned into Vengeance. It looked to me, in the game, that he had no control over it when Justice took over, and seemed sad about the results afterward. I think Justice/vengeance destroyed the building and Anders was just a pawn, so I didn't kill him. I still am upset that like with so many other choices we were given in DA2, we were never given a diplomatic solution to the mage/templar crisis. It seems that there was more killing and violence emphasized in this game, with less chance for diplomacy and rational decisions.

[Carmen_Willow]

Merced652 wrote...

My character having no stock in religion; i let anders live. The chantry is just as corrupt as an organization as any, those exalted marches, locking away mages, sister patrice...

But it isn't about what he did to the organization.  It's about what he did to innocent people who had done nothing.

The people praying the chantry when it blew up.
The elves and immigrant Fereldens who would be caught in between the Templars and the Mages because they've got nowhere to run and hide.
The chaos and destruction happening less than a decade after the Blight....
Poor people used by blood mages to power spells.
Slavers taking advantage of the confusion.
And the demons who will feast on the fear and the blood and the death.  In how many places will the veil be torn because of what he did?

Anders deserved to be executed. 

[TJPags]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

My character having no stock in religion; i let anders live. The chantry is just as corrupt as an organization as any, those exalted marches, locking away mages, sister patrice...

But it isn't about what he did to the organization.  It's about what he did to innocent people who had done nothing.

The people praying the chantry when it blew up.
The elves and immigrant Fereldens who would be caught in between the Templars and the Mages because they've got nowhere to run and hide.
The chaos and destruction happening less than a decade after the Blight....
Poor people used by blood mages to power spells.
Slavers taking advantage of the confusion.
And the demons who will feast on the fear and the blood and the death.  In how many places will the veil be torn because of what he did?

Anders deserved to be executed. 

The problem with people like Anders is that they feel that if a few innocents get hurt - and they always talk about a "few" innocents, as if mages and templars make up 90% of the world's population - while shedding light on what they feel is a "huge injustice", it's acceptable.  They get blinded by their "cause" and no longer care about anyone other than those they feel are oppressed.

IMO, Anders is nothing more than a terrorist.  I'm trying hard not to draw a clear comparison to 9/11 here, but for me, it's hard not to.

[LobselVith8]

It's a poor and improper analogy when the mages are slaves of the Chantry, and have been for hundreds of years, so le's leave the RL comparisons out of this discussion when they don't make a fair comparison to events. Anders wanted to emancipate his enslaved people from the Chantry. Right or wrong, he succeeded in the end.

[graciegrace]

I did actually, however, his dialogue when you do choose to kill him pissed me off SO much I had to go back and let him live. There was no way to win. Killing him makes him a martyr, leaving him alive lets him free to do god knows what...

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a poor and improper analogy when the mages are slaves of the Chantry, and have been for hundreds of years, so le's leave the RL comparisons out of this discussion when they don't make a fair comparison to events. Anders wanted to emancipate his enslaved people from the Chantry. Right or wrong, he succeeded in the end.

Well, I strongly disagree that it's a poor analogy.  Not sure I agree it's improper, but as I said, I'm trying my damndest not to make it that, so I'll let it go.

However, did he actually emancipate his people?  Or did they do it themselves?

[LobselVith8]

His actions lead to the Circles breaking free from the Chantry. It wouldn't have happened without Anders. He was directly responsible for the end of the slavery of mages.

[cglasgow]

I just love how some people are so willing to believe in the good intentions and sound moral judgement of a character that we once had to physically restrain from killing the hostage we were trying to rescue, because she wasn't fighting templars hard enough.

[LobselVith8]

Nobody claimed he was perfect, cglasgow. I only said that he emancipated the enslaved mages across the continent with his actions.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

His actions lead to the Circles breaking free from the Chantry. It wouldn't have happened without Anders. He was directly responsible for the end of the slavery of mages.

Temporary end of alleged slavery, at best.

Also, my choice is what is responsible for that.  If I side with the Templars, as I understand, much is good in the world (haven't played that end, so may not be stating that correctly).

[graciegrace]

the question becomes should mages be free to begin with. DAO had me full force on that side, but everything that happened in DA2 made me question whether mages really should be allowed to go free. The Templars, the Chantry and the Circle obviously don't work, but does that mean that mages should just be free to do whatever they please? I don't think so. They can be far too dangerous. It'd be like giving people guns without monitoring it and letting them have at it. It doesn't end well. Anders believing he had the authority to make a decision like that is also infuriating. Not everyone hated the Circle, not every mage felt enslaved.

[cglasgow]

Nobody claimed he was perfect, cglasgow.

You have such a delicately understated way of phrasing 'The man was a homicidal lunatic'.  Seriously, have we forgotten the Anders sidequest in act 2, and how that ended?   With the apprentice in the tunnel?

That's the rub, you know.  You've been ooh'ing and aah'ing over the alleged moral purity and clarity of vision of a guy who we know as a fact is willing to cold-bloodedly murder any innocent person who pisses him off by trying to 'compromise' with templars in any way, even if there's no way they could possibly fight them all.   Even if one of those people was one of the mages he's trying to 'save'.   Anders was the worst sort of fanatic extremist; he could always find a mental rationalization to kill anyone.

Also, you're talking like the war is already won.  All we know so far is that Anders started a war.   We don't know if the mages are going to win it, or if Anders has instead simply condemned 'his people' to being the next victims of a Sacred March.

Hey, aren't you the person saying that all the 'normal' people out there were mostly Chantry dupes anyway, and thus just as guilty as the templars?  Wouldn't that mean that the mages are trying to fight a war when outnumbered by the entire goddamn world?   Yeah, way to go Anders.  You just 'led' your people straight to oblivion.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[dminto29]

Murdered him no regrets. Liked him in Awakenings but really disliked him in DA2.

[Carmen_Willow]

cglasgow wrote...

Nobody claimed he was perfect, cglasgow.

You have such a delicately understated way of phrasing 'The man was a homicidal lunatic'.  Seriously, have we forgotten the Anders sidequest in act 2, and how that ended?   With the apprentice in the tunnel?

That's the rub, you know.  You've been ooh'ing and aah'ing over the alleged moral purity and clarity of vision of a guy who we know as a fact is willing to cold-bloodedly murder any innocent person who pisses him off by trying to 'compromise' with templars in any way, even if there's no way they could possibly fight them all.   Even if one of those people was one of the mages he's trying to 'save'.   Anders was the worst sort of fanatic extremist; he could always find a mental rationalization to kill anyone.

Also, you're talking like the war is already won.  All we know so far is that Anders started a war.   We don't know if the mages are going to win it, or if Anders has instead simply condemned 'his people' to being the next victims of a Sacred March.

Hey, aren't you the person saying that all the 'normal' people out there were mostly Chantry dupes anyway, and thus just as guilty as the templars?  Wouldn't that mean that the mages are trying to fight a war when outnumbered by the entire goddamn world?   Yeah, way to go Anders.  You just 'led' your people straight to oblivion.

You are so right.  And if the mages lose this war, they could end up looking like Qunari mages.  If the mages lose, the "normal" people of Thedas might just decide to kill every child who shows signs of magic, or as I said, do to mages what the Qunari do.....The Divine might just decide that genocide is the safest course. 

[LobselVith8]

I didn't get Fenris disputing that it was slavery when he was at Merdith's side, and then came to mine. There's nothing alleged about mages being slaves of the Chantry when they have no agency of their own, no basic rights, and Templars rule over them. Also the repeated reference to it being slavery, TJ. I'm sure the Chantry would say otherwise, but they certainty don't have any intention of letting go of their slaves, either.

I never said that. You have a quote to illustrate this claim, cg?

[cglasgow]

Don't try to change the subject because you're stuck for an answer; answer the question. Why are you ignoring what Anders did in act 2 while talking about what a swell guy he supposedly is? Why do you refuse to admit that the man is a homicidal fanatic?

[Vajraja]

He made me an accomplice and undermined everything I was trying to do in the game. Probably the highlight of the game for me was taking him out.

[WhiteKnyght]

I did.

Too bad it was with a small knife tho. I would have preferred to do to him what I did to the Arishok

[RazorrX]

I killed him like the rabid dog he was. My only complaint is that I would have killed him in act 1 if I had been allowed to, thus saving the chantry and preventing the whole war.