2340 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...

And you appear to endorse caging people for something they MIGHT do, right? Because it's what the Chantry does to mages.

Yes, I do.

I have restrictions placed upon me from birth. Not because of something I did but because of something I might do.
Were I able to shoot fire from my fingertips or control the minds of others, logic would follow that by increasing the danger I might represent to others, the restrictions placed upon me to minimize that danger must be more severe as well.

[EChatty]

Oh really? What else is it then? You define cage for me then, because the dictionary defines it thus:


cage
[keyj] Show IPA noun, verb, caged, cag·ing.
noun

a boxlike enclosure having wires, bars, or the like, for confining and displaying birds or animals.

anything that confines or imprisons; prison.

The Circles confine the mages and they cannot leave without special permission.

JB: You and I will have to disagree on that point, respectfully.

[TEWR]

It should be noted that not just Mages view it as a gilded cage. Duncan does as well.

[Lazy Jer]

EChatty wrote...

And to bring the subject to Anders for a moment, we really aren't in a position to judge him. Think about it. Half your companions in DAO are criminals/untrustworthy.

Sten: Murdered an entire family because someone stole his sword and he KNEW the family didn't have it, he just 'panicked' and killed them

Leliana: Spy/assassin hiding out in a Chantry.

Morrigan: Daughter of an abomination and an apostate.

In Awakenings there's Velanna: Serial killer.

Once you find out what these people did, do you expel them from your group? I doubt even one in a hundred players would.

Sten and Leliana were seeking atonement for what they'd done.  Sten in fact was originally planning on sitting in his cage and dying.  He was convinced to help the Warden instead.  Velanna had seen her entire clan dead and was tricked into thinking it was humans who'd done that.  Once she was proven wrong she stopped.  Plus she joined the Wardens, who were critically short on members following Ostegar.

And Morrigan is a mage.  Who her mother is isn 't relevant (even if we actually knew who or what she is).  At the beginning of the story, to our knowledge, she hasn't actually done anything even approaching what the others have.

[EChatty]

Thank you, TEWR. Duncan does think it's a cage too, thank you for reminding me.

A cage is a cage if it confines someone to a specific area. If you'd rather I used the word prison, I will. They're being imprisoned at the Circle and no matter how good the food might be or how comfortable the beds might be, they still can't interact with normal people without special permission and being escorted by Templars. And getting that permission appears to hinge on how affluent your family is.

[MisterJB]

So? They live in a luxurious tower where they are fed, clothed, educated and don't have to work to earn all of this.
Do you have any idea of the number of people in our world, let alone a medieval society like Thedas, that would kill their mothers to have those living conditions?

[EChatty]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EChatty wrote...

And to bring the subject to Anders for a moment, we really aren't in a position to judge him. Think about it. Half your companions in DAO are criminals/untrustworthy.

Sten: Murdered an entire family because someone stole his sword and he KNEW the family didn't have it, he just 'panicked' and killed them

Leliana: Spy/assassin hiding out in a Chantry.

Morrigan: Daughter of an abomination and an apostate.

In Awakenings there's Velanna: Serial killer.

Once you find out what these people did, do you expel them from your group? I doubt even one in a hundred players would.

Sten and Leliana were seeking atonement for what they'd done.  Sten in fact was originally planning on sitting in his cage and dying.  He was convinced to help the Warden instead.  Velanna had seen her entire clan dead and was tricked into thinking it was humans who'd done that.  Once she was proven wrong she stopped.  Plus she joined the Wardens, who were critically short on members following Ostegar.

And Morrigan is a mage.  Who her mother is isn 't relevant (even if we actually knew who or what she is).  At the beginning of the story, to our knowledge, she hasn't actually done anything even approaching what the others have.

Therefore, shouldn't we give Anders the chance to atone for what he does by participating in the war he started rather than becoming a martyr?

Again, I don't care if people want to give him that martyrdom, that's their choice. But to call the Chantry innocent is patently being wilfully ignorant of what the Chantry really is. IMO, if they're really trying to help the poor and downtrodden, go to where the poor and downtrodden really are-the Alienages and Darktown.

[EChatty]

MisterJB wrote...

So? They live in a luxurious tower where they are fed, clothed, educated and don't have to work to earn all of this.
Do you have any idea of the number of people in our world, let alone a medieval society like Thedas, that would kill their mothers to have those living conditions?

I've ceased to try to debate with you since you advocate imprisoning someone for being born with magic, keeping them from having relations or spouses or children or even allowing them to walk outside without an escort. And I doubt they have free run of the entire tower since the apprentices are confined to the lower floors until they pass their Harrowing, but even if they did, that's a far cry from having free run of a city, state or country if you could afford to travel. So no, I don't think they're being treated fairly.

Oh, and I don't see the Chantry helping the City Elves to move about freely either. They're almost as confined to their ghettos as mages are to their Circles.

And I still contend that the Chantry treats the Elves and Mages very similarly. Both sides did wrong/bad things to each other in the past. (The Dales, the Ancient Tevinter if you believe the Chantry's Original Sin story.) And both aren't exactly friendly today.

Both Elves and Mages, though by different means, are pretty much confined to small spaces.
BUT its the Chantry/humans that are the ones what are in the position of power. Its not an equal relationship.

Would the City Elves be so aggressive and unfriendly if they had a real chance to make something of themselves?

Or if the Chanty got up off it's collective ass and say, I dunno, rebuilt the Alienages so they're as "gilded" as the Circles

I have a bit more to add (Thank you, my friend, for the biggest portion of this post)

Don't forget, the Chantry is the Andrastean nation's spiritual guide. Its a big cultural sign if your big religion starts really playing nice to the elves.
Oh, and restores Shartan's verses to the Chant.
It would take years, certainly. Decades or even centuries but overall the Chantry is the biggest, most organised and populous entity to re-form Elven status. A king can change laws but the Chantry can change the minds of the people.
And if the City Elves are voluntary, wealthy, well-treated citizens and devout belivers in the Maker and Andraste.... well maybe they could start outreaching to the Dalish. Rather than poisoning the minds of the people that the Dalish are savages, teach the people to welcome the Dalish.

I really doubt you'd lose many Elves to the Dalish religion if being Andrastean offers a much better way of life.
Never know. There may be Dalish who might give up the rebel wanderer-hunter life for an affluent city life under the Maker.

But this is all supposition combined with a dose of wishful thinking and idealism.

Still, could it hurt to try? You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 05:27 .

[Lazy Jer]

EChatty wrote...

Therefore, shouldn't we give Anders the chance to atone for what he does by participating in the war he started rather than becoming a martyr?

Again, I don't care if people want to give him that martyrdom, that's their choice. But to call the Chantry innocent is patently being wilfully ignorant of what the Chantry really is. IMO, if they're really trying to help the poor and downtrodden, go to where the poor and downtrodden really are-the Alienages and Darktown.

Ideally, yes.  But unfortunately he is completely unrepentant for what he's done.  Furthermore he has no control over justice anymore.  A big guiding factor in my own decision to kill him was the realization that he would do it again given the chance, plus he's proven to have less and less control over "justice" even to the degree of putting the people he claims to want to help as risk of death.  He will kill the runaway mage if you don't step in, and he knows that mages will die if he does what he does.  He's too dangerous.  But, as you said, that was my choice and my reasoning behind it.

In regards to the Chantry being innocent.  Well, no, it's not  But then no organization in Thedas is innocent, not even the Wardens.  They all have dirt and they all spin history in their favor.  Thus no organization in Thedas is as innocent nor as guilty as most of us make them out to be.

[EChatty]

You're right about no organization being innocent, which is why JAnders struck out at the Chantry. The Chantry is the organization that is responsible for imprisoning mages (since someone objects strenuously to cages). They're totally responsible for how mages are treated. They dislike (just in case someone objects to me using the word hate) mages and elves and tolerate Dwarves because Dwarves are their only source of lyrium.

If you don't believe the Chantry dislikes mages, just listen real closely when Uldred tries to offer a different solution to signaling Loghain's troops at Ostagar. The RM who was there spoke with disdain and, dare I say it, hatred in her voice when she told him they wouldn't trust lives to his spells but that his spells were only good for the darkspawn.

And Cailan, Duncan and Loghain just let her scold him like a child. (though Loghain's silence is understandable in hindsight.)

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 05:39 .

[MisterJB]

EChatty wrote...
I've ceased to try to debate with you since you advocate imprisoning someone for being born with magic, keeping them from having relations or spouses or children or even allowing them to walk outside without an escort. And I doubt they have free run of the entire tower since the apprentices are confined to the lower floors until they pass their Harrowing, but even if they did, that's a far cry from having free run of a city, state or country if you could afford to travel. So no, I don't think they're being treated fairly.

The Chantry simply does what is necessary to ensure the safety and freedom of all mundanes in Thedas.
It certainly treats the mages far better than the tevinter mages treat their mundane slaves.

[EChatty]

Like I said, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree and drop it because neither of us is going to sway the other. You have your opinion and I have mine and neither has a common ground.

[Lazy Jer]

EChatty wrote...

Like I said, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree and drop it because neither of us is going to sway the other. You have your opinion and I have mine and neither has a common ground.

Aw shucks.  The rest of us were really enjoying seeing you two argue.

[EChatty]

Ah well, so sorry to disappoint.

Modifié par EChatty, 14 janvier 2013 - 07:21 .

[MisterJB]

Bah, boring.

[SweQue]

so let me get this straight: I dislike my goverment policy, so I can just walk into the parliment and blow it all up, no matter who is inside and I should face no consequence?

Anyone who didnt kill Anders clearly shouldn't be a judge, or else he/she will fall for every lame excuse made by a criminal.
He was a terrorist, and when you become one you lose certain rights.

Modifié par SweQue, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:27 .

[rapscallioness]

Yes, I killed Anders. Even tho he was my lover. Even tho I sided w/the mages. It was not easy. Not at all.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

So? They live in a luxurious tower where they are fed, clothed, educated and don't have to work to earn all of this.
Do you have any idea of the number of people in our world, let alone a medieval society like Thedas, that would kill their mothers to have those living conditions?

They would think twice if it came with a side of regular beatings and rape.

[Plaintiff]

SweQue wrote...

so let me get this straight: I dislike my goverment policy, so I can just walk into the parliment and blow it all up, no matter who is inside and I should face no consequence?

Anyone who didnt kill Anders clearly shouldn't be a judge, or else he/she will fall for every lame excuse made by a criminal.
He was a terrorist, and when you become one you lose certain rights.

Obviously not. But if your government or ruling organization is legitimately oppressive and tyrannical, as the Chantry is, it is absolutely okay to destroy it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Yeah, as a pro-templar Hawke. And my Hawke didn't hate Anders. He spent most of Act 3 trying to help, and when it was clear Anders was beyond any help, he did Anders a mercy and gave him some peace.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Yup, My Hawke killed him for what he did. My Hawke does not support Templars or Magi, but loves to kill.

[11Razor11]

What Anders does as Revolutionary answer to the age old problem is the smartest best direct solution. He creates a solution(the result of their handling of mages and it also shows that without action it will become worse and worse) for both parties and frees the mages to stand up. He gives up his humanity(and life if needed) which is the greatest sacrifice and that will be remembered always as the turning point of the conflict and freedom of the mages. This kind of action is always needed when this kind of oppression exists. It does not matter if it's right or wrong, their is no right or wrong in this because their is always guilty and innocence all that matters is that his plan must succeed by effecting the most people to rise up and free themselfs. Ask yourself if the Templars struck first (which they technically have through various circles and Meridith) and the war was all ready in motion would it make bombing the Chantry right or wrong as a recourse? It would not matter it will not of had the same effect in people as doing it first as a martyr act of freedom. For Anders effect to be the best you can kill him as he excepts as he knows it is what is needed and it is the best option for the war.(Again no right or wrong this is about the effect you want to bring to save the mages) As a Male Hawke(two hand warrior(partied with 3mages always,married Merryl)) he was my friend and I had to let him live and show mercy to such a selfless man who thought up this plan and great personal sacrifice to save millions and free not only mages but will lead to freedom of other oppressed races in Thedas.I believed he should die for the best Effect On History but I will not kill him and by choosing that he will live to lead and see this war through and help enspire the new free mages. What Anders did was needed and must be respected he should live. Remember also the Chantry building is the symbol the people inside were irrelevant 20 or 30 it does not matter it could have been empty or only had 1 person in. The building falling is what matters and what creates the revolution. What if their was no atom bomb? the war never ended for 50 or a 100years?the whole world living under tyranny and oppression? What would the Allies have done to save the world later?Maybe throw down 10 or 20 atom bombs over all **** terrotory and oblitarate Europe? The Allies should have used their chance to assasinate hitler earlier then the bombing would not have been needed.1 Death would have stopped the war. As a famous Vulcun said, the needs of the many out way the needs of the few...

[EChatty]

Thank you, Razor and Plaintiff.