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[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
They would think twice if it came with a side of regular beatings and rape.

Good thing there are no regular beatings and rape in the Circle.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 janvier 2013 - 02:38 .

[Mikoto8472]

Hey all, new to the forum.

I have to say, great discussion here-it took me a few days to get through every post but was a DA fan it was worth the read. I find myself agreeing with Skadi, Lobsel and most of the other people who think mages deserve to be free and the Elves are being treated similarly through different methods.

As for Anders, in all my playthroughs I spared him and sided with the mages. And I regard him as more freedom fighter/revolutionary than terrorist. He did a lot of good in the earlier acts by running a free underground health clinic to the poorest of Kirkwall. I feel that somewhat balances out his act of blowing up the Chantry. He's probably saved as many lives as he's taken and that makes him far too "grey" to dismiss him with a simple execution.

Besides that, as the Warden I recruited Sten, Leliana, Velanna, and Zevran who have all a pretty high body count. As a player, I'm in no position to judge Anders really. Roleplaying as Hawke, well, I did recruit Fenris who has an impressive body count himself and didn't banish him when I found out what he did to that tribe. Then there are Varric and Isabela, both of whom I recruited. And Merril. Lol, yeah I'm in no position to judge given my own actions with recruiting questionable companions.

Finally, seeing as I play pro-mage Hawkes, they each decide that they're in a bad enough situation as it is and will need all the help they can get so they spare Anders. In my non-mage playthroughs I kinda need a healer anyway. As for Sebastian's threat, given its been what, seven years and he hasn't taken Starkhaven's throne yet, I think its an empty one. And honestly I'm sick of Kirkwall and its denizens even by Act 2. I've been waiting for the chance to bail out of that cesspool long before the end of the game.

[EChatty]

Great post, Miko. And for everyone's information, she's the reason I got into the DA games (and Oblivion)

[andy6915]

Mikoto is who got you into the series?

[EChatty]

Yes. We've never personally met since we don't live in the same country, but we converse on MSN all the time and she got me into DA

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
They would think twice if it came with a side of regular beatings and rape.

Good thing there are no regular beatings and rape in the Circle.

None that are officially recognised or punished, certainly.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
None that are officially recognised or punished, certainly.

Because they are nearly non-existent.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
None that are officially recognised or punished, certainly.

Because they are nearly non-existent.

Hahahahahahahaha.

Obviously that's not true. Hawke is practically tripping over abusive and rapacious Templars, and almost every Circle mage we encounter in both games has some tale of abuse, either their own experience or that of someone near to them, to regale us with. And worse, much of the abuse doled out by Templars has some bull**** legal justification.

The pro-templar side gets to argue that the player's personal experience is representative of the mage population as a whole, so it's pretty hypocritical to say that I can't make the same argument to support my own stance. 

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:47 .

[Mikoto8472]

Yeah Chatty is one of my online friends. This thread sparked some interesting discussions.

As for the frequency that mages are beaten and/or raped in the Circles, I can't really remark on that because I don't know any solid evidence that definitively points to a frequency. All I do know is that it did happen in Kirkwall and Ser Alrik was surrounded by a bunch of his Templar buddies that did nothing to speak out against or prevent what was about to happen to Ella had Hawke and co not arrived.

What I find myself wondering is.... did they just stand around and watch? Or did they participate? How far then does this form of corruption go? Again I have no answers. It just makes me wonder.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Obviously that's not true. Hawke is practically tripping over abusive and rapacious Templars, and almost every Circle mage we encounter in both games has some tale of abuse, either their own experience or that of someone near to them, to regale us with. And worse, much of the abuse doled out by Templars has some bull**** legal justification.

The pro-templar side gets to argue that the player's personal experience is representative of the mage population as a whole, so it's pretty hypocritical to say that I can't make the same argument to support my own stance. 

Not only does the Circle of Kirkwall does not represent the entirety of the Circle system; for instance, Alain claims the templars can beat mages in Kirkwall and no one cares which implies either they did not beat mages in Starkahaven or that someone cared; but you've now changed the previous terms of "regular beatings and rape" to "abuse" which is open to a much more subjective interpretation which you are already using by claiming the templars' justifications are "bull***" when they most likely are not.

The pro-templar side argues that the possibility for magical abuse is omnipresent but we do not claim that every Circle in the land is filled with blood mages just because it suits our views of the situation.

[EChatty]

I dare anyone to claim that warrior/rogue Hawke isn't more dangerous than any Circle mage. Why is s/he allowed to roam free? S/he's already proven that s/he can kill swathes of people before teatime.

Modifié par EChatty, 15 janvier 2013 - 04:46 .

[MisterJB]

1-Mundane Hawke is not in danger of being possessed by demons.
2-Mundane Hawke is one amongst a thousand of mundanes whereas mages are nearly all walking bombs.
3-Mundane Hawke can be disarmed. Mages can't.
4-Mundane Hawke can't control people with his or her mind.

[EChatty]

That isn't the point. Even disarmed a mundane still has hands and feet capable of killing. But since I'm dealing with an expert troll, the only expectation I have out of you is that you'll continue to advocate caging, raping and abusing mages for the sins of their ancestors.

[MisterJB]

Do me a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. I have never,, ever, EVER advocated beating or raping mages and most certainly not as a measure of punishment for what the Magisters did and still do.

What I advocat are harsher restrictions for those who are born significantly more dangerous than the rest of the population.
Sure, hands and feet can kill. I can throw a punch, mages can tap someone on their heads and make them explode from the inside out. (Walking Bomb spell, watch Morrigan do it in "Sacred Ashes")
Who is more dangerous?

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:02 .

[Lazy Jer]

EChatty wrote...

I dare anyone to claim that warrior/rogue Hawke isn't more dangerous than any Circle mage. Why is s/he allowed to roam free? S/he's already proven that s/he can kill swathes of people before teatime.

Well, certain allowances have to be made for the fact that this is a game.  If Rogue/Warrior Hawke wasn't comparably powerful to a Mage Hawke then no one would want to play warriors or rogues, or the people who do want to play warriors and rogues would complain about the classes being uneven.

It's safe to assume that the bulk of NPC mages and mundanes could more or less be laid out with one really good punch to the face and couldn't taken nearly the amount of arrows that Hawke and the Gang can.  That being said, a mage with no control over his or her magic is dangerous.  That's why the circle broke away from the Chantry, but didn't disband entirely.  The Circle does represent a good opportunity to train mages in how to control their powers since not all mages have a Malcolm Hawke to teach them.

[EChatty]

I never said that the Circles should disband entirely, just that they be allowed more freedoms than they currently get from the Chantry, who hates mages. If breaking away from the Chantry and turning the Circles into what they should be means breaking away from the Chantry then I'll help Anders blow up the Chantry every time and allow him to live.

[Lazy Jer]

EChatty wrote...

I never said that the Circles should disband entirely, just that they be allowed more freedoms than they currently get from the Chantry, who hates mages. If breaking away from the Chantry and turning the Circles into what they should be means breaking away from the Chantry then I'll help Anders blow up the Chantry every time and allow him to live.

I'm not saying you are.  I'm just explaining mages are locked up and people like Hawke aren't.

[EChatty]

I do believe the Circles could work if the Chantry were taken out of it, let the Templars do the role they were 'supposed' to be doing (protecting them) and use the Circles as more boarding schools for apprentices and their teachers and let the mages who've proven they aren't a danger to the population live, work, marry and have children as mundanes do.

Then if they have a mage-child, send the child to the Circle to be apprenticed by a certain age, be allowed regular visits and all that. Not this lock them up and throw away the key unless they're needed for battle mentality that the Chantry has. No ripping mage babies from their families and all that. Make it mandatory for children with magic to go to Circles, but let it be known that it won't be forever.

Lastly, let them keep their titles if they're born into them. No more stripping them of absolutely everything just because they have magic.

[MisterJB]

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly ironic that someone with Spock's famous "needs of the many" line for a signature is defending the few (mages) over the many(mundanes)?

[EChatty]

One other thing along the same vein. When you train Templars, don't addict them to lyrium. It's been established that they can be trained without it, just that lyrium 'might' make their talents more effective.

I'm more inclined to believe that the Chantry deliberately addicts them to it as a control method rather than because it enhances their abilities, but then again, I suspect anything that the Chantry does.

[MisterJB]

No, it has not been extablished. There is a difference between what is in the Lore and what is in Gameplay. It would be impractical to have the PC ingest lyrium everyday of gameplay so, we don't see them do it.
One throwaway line by an idiot like Alistair is not compelling evidence vs all the lore of Dragon Age.

But do tell, if Lyrium is not needed, how do templars achieve their magic-dispelling skills? By whishing really, really hard?

[Mikoto8472]

Which, Chatty, incidentally reminds me of some of the discussion about Elthina. We know from what Alistair told the Warden that the Chantry controls the lyrium trade with the Dwarves. So if Elthina and her priests have the lyrium she could have easily said to the Templars. "Knock it off with the mage abuse and boot Meredith from the Order or you don't get any more lyrium."

Rather than sit on her hands. Oh, I acknowledge the Templars could have gotten some lyrium off the Carta but I doubt it would be enough to supply them all.

[EChatty]

Yes Miko, I said as much in an earlier post.

Well, if a mage Warden/Hawke can down a lyrium potion now and then to replenish mana, why couldn't the game have the Templer spec Warden/Hawke also do the same if they must have it?

Yes, Elthina did sit on her hands, which enabled the abuse to continue. I don't mourn her death as much as I do Marethari's during Merril's final quest.

[Lazy Jer]

Mikoto8472 wrote...

Which, Chatty, incidentally reminds me of some of the discussion about Elthina. We know from what Alistair told the Warden that the Chantry controls the lyrium trade with the Dwarves. So if Elthina and her priests have the lyrium she could have easily said to the Templars. "Knock it off with the mage abuse and boot Meredith from the Order or you don't get any more lyrium."

Rather than sit on her hands. Oh, I acknowledge the Templars could have gotten some lyrium off the Carta but I doubt it would be enough to supply them all.

That could easily backfire.  Especially with Meredith suspecting blood mage influence under every second cobblestone.

[11Razor11]

@MisterJB: (Am I the only one who finds it incredibly ironic that someone with Spock's famous "needs of the many" line for a signature is defending the few (mages) over the many(mundanes)?)

Umm. In every tower there is more mages than Templar. In every city there is more mages(some hidden because of ) the Templar. If you look at the amount of mages(people with magic ability ALMOST THE WHOLE ELVEN RACE) They are the many in a world were they have enough numbers to be part of society. The choice of the Chantry was not the correct choice for the many. Mages should have been taught schooled and free like all man. Then this war will have never happened.

This argument is not about mundanes. You can't decide for every mundane feeling about mages or Templar. That means you can't take that in account. You can only weight up and look at Mages and Templar because they are the factual sides. If a mundanes son was born with magic would he condem him. Would you condemm an aids baby just because it might infect other people? Nope. You can't if you believe in a free society for all. If he grows up and learned to have protected sex then he is free to live as free as anyone. If he purposefully or by self negligence not wear protection to cause harm then and only then will he be prosecuted by the law applicable for his action.

@misterJB (What I advocat are harsher restrictions for those who are born significantly more dangerous than the rest of the population.
Sure, hands and feet can kill. I can throw a punch, mages can tap someone on their heads and make them explode from the inside out. (Walking Bomb spell, watch Morrigan do it in "Sacred Ashes")
Who is more dangerous? ) Depending how strong i make my firebomb.... LOL Your argument is flawed... Dangerous is a perception and only relevant to what it is measured against, it is nothing if the ability was not used... USA is dangerous because they have a 100 atom bombs and can destroy any continent they wish. Lets oppress them... Lets put them in a cage.... LOL U cannot judge and punish before a decision or act has been done.

@MisterJB(But do tell, if Lyrium is not needed, how do templars achieve their magic-dispelling skills? By whishing really, really hard?)

If you except Dragon Age as the world you are arguing in you need to except the lore and rules of that world otherwise it is pointless to argue. In Dragon Age a Warrior,Rogue and Mage is of equal power and ability depending on skill and experience. In DA magic exists with its rules a rogue can disappear in a puff of smoke in front of your eyes suddenly appear 20 meter further behind you and put a knife between your vertabrae and kill you in a blink. A warrior can do a whirlwind and kill 8 warriors with one sweep. This is the rules and world you are in you can't argue outside of it. Otherwise it's all irrelevant.

You must except everything in lore as fact for DA world just like you except the Mass Relays in ME braking the speed of light concept of Einstein. Einstein is irrelevant in DA as is all laws of physics or any other science you might think off. All you can except of the world is what the lore says and what the people tell you as fact like Allistair on his experience as being trained as a Templar. I mean how does a berserker work. It could be as simple as a adrenaline injection or potion drank? You can't argue for it until there is lore or game fact that explains it to you. Until then you must except that it was a kind of training that enhances the warrior fighting and damage ability. The exact way how it is done is irrelevant until being explained in the game world and only the game world.