2340 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

11Razor11 wrote...
Umm. In every tower there is more mages than Templar. In every city there is more mages(some hidden because of ) the Templar. If you look at the amount of mages(people with magic ability ALMOST THE WHOLE ELVEN RACE) They are the many in a world were they have enough numbers to be part of society. The choice of the Chantry was not the correct choice for the many. Mages should have been taught schooled and free like all man. Then this war will have never happened.

First of all, there are few elves and even fewer elven mages. Their race is no more magical than humanity.
Second, they are the few when compared to the mundanes of Thedas which they threaten simply by existing. This war wouldn't have happened because were mages free, they would have taken control of the infrastructure long ago and reduced all those without magical ability to the status of second class beings like what happened in Tevinter.

This argument is not about mundanes. You can't decide for every mundane feeling about mages or Templar. That means you can't take that in account. You can only weight up and look at Mages and Templar because they are the factual sides. If a mundanes son was born with magic would he condem him.

Of course this argument is about mundanes. What are Templars if not mundanes? Who will be affected by mage freedom if not mundanes? This war has been going since the first mage appeared in Thedas and it will continue to go on thousands of years after this rebellion has ended.

You can't if you believe in a free society for all.

I believe in treating what is equal as equal and what is inequal as inequal.
Mages and mundanes are not equal. They will never be equal because mages are born with more abilities than mundanes.

Depending how strong i make my firebomb.... LOL Your argument is flawed... Dangerous is a perception and only relevant to what it is measured against, it is nothing if the ability was not used... USA is dangerous because they have a 100 atom bombs and can destroy any continent they wish. Lets oppress them... Lets put them in a cage.... LOL U cannot judge and punish before a decision or act has been done.

I am neither judging not punishing. I am placing greater restrictions for the protections of others on those who can kill them with their minds just like I have certain restrictions on my freedom based on my simple ability to be dangerous.

There is a reason, afterall, that while you can legally buy a firearm in certain countries of the world, a common citizen can never simply buy a nuclear bomb. Unfortunately, in Thedas, people are born with nuclear bombs strapped to their backs. And in your opinions, society should just go on and trust that these people will never go off despite the numberless of cases of times in which they did, in fact, exploded and countless innocents were hurt.

I

f you except Dragon Age as the world you are arguing in you need to except the lore and rules of that world otherwise it is pointless to argue. In Dragon Age a Warrior,Rogue and Mage is of equal power and ability depending on skill and experience. In DA magic exists with its rules a rogue can disappear in a puff of smoke in front of your eyes suddenly appear 20 meter further behind you and put a knife between your vertabrae and kill you in a blink. A warrior can do a whirlwind and kill 8 warriors with one sweep. This is the rules and world you are in you can't argue outside of it. Otherwise it's all irrelevant.

You must except everything in lore as fact for DA world just like you except the Mass Relays in ME braking the speed of light concept of Einstein. Einstein is irrelevant in DA as is all laws of physics or any other science you might think off. All you can except of the world is what the lore says and what the people tell you as fact like Allistair on his experience as being trained as a Templar. I mean how does a berserker work. It could be as simple as a adrenaline injection or potion drank? You can't argue for it until there is lore or game fact that explains it to you. Until then you must except that it was a kind of training that enhances the warrior fighting and damage ability. The exact way how it is done is irrelevant until being explained in the game world and only the game world.

That is simply ridiculous. Unless explicitally told otherwise, a fantasy world works just like ours. I am asked to accept that there is a magical substance in the land that can break the laws of physic and that some people are born with the ability to manipulate this. Ok, I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that.
It is, however, ridiculous to believe that humans in Thedas can have ten arrows sticking out of varied places in their bodies or be gutted by a qunari sword and be just fine and dandy seconds later; or that an arrow to the chest will make your explode in a gory mess. The distinction between Lore and Gameplay is important and should always be made.
I can accept that should a mundane drink this magical substance, they will gain certain magical abilities as well. Not that any mundane in Thedas can simply train to be able to break the laws of physics.

Alistaris theorizes that Lyrium might not be needed while everyone else who spent many more years as a templar or studying them, assures me that Templar ablities are impossible without lyrium. And you expect me to believe in Alistair's little theory over the rest of the world

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:13 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

One throwaway line by an idiot like Alistair is not compelling evidence vs all the lore of Dragon Age.

Alistair will say that Templars only receive lyrium if they've taken their vows. He'll also say he's never taken his vows, so how he's able to perform Templar abilities is a mystery. Then you have what he was taught by the Chantry to add in, about how lyrium might just be an amplifier and not a necessity for Templar abilities.

I could accept lyrium amplifying Templar abilities and the abilities themselves are predominantly triggered by a well-trained and disciplined mind. But I'm not a fan of the Templar stuff being retconned when Alistair makes it clear that he hasn't done what's necessary to be able to perform such acts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:47 .

[11Razor11]

@MisterJB (That is simply ridiculous. Unless explicitally told otherwise, a fantasy world works just like ours. I am asked to accept that there is a magical substance in the land that can break the laws of physic and that some people are born with the ability to manipulate this. Ok, I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that.)

No it doesn't it's fantasy. You just explained you believe in DA magic theory. When playing you never see the sword entering n' player's body he only gets cut and then a little salf gets used(no magic remember it's made by herbalism so you can't argue it's magical in nature) it's different science healing attribute that doesn't exist in our world in can cure many and deep cuts.

In a death scene players head gets shopped off for example and then a mage can raise dead with magic. So in DA world magic can raise dead if you see head fall off and if you see cuts you can be heal instantly with a salf(made from a plant). Haven't seen such a plant in our world so you except the DA world for what it is a fantasy world were only the fantasy world rules apply. That means if there is something you can't explain and the is no lore for it yet, you must except it as real in the world. That means to believe and have fun playing the game you have to believe what you do and can do in the game. You can rip 10 arrows out of yourself and heal quicker because flesh and healing science rules is different in this DA world.
------------------------
Another example and I think this one is real apt for you to understand because it is also in a fantasy world were you have to except different rules in science and physics. -Here we also are applying the right to be freeman anywere-
The Jedi do people with the force get locked in circles. Do all of them have to be caged and opressed their whole life because they can become sith??? No. The are taught,schooled and then given a choice as free men or become Jedi. Any of them can at any stage leave training or continue. Become Jedi or not become Jedi. If they leave the academy they may or may not become sith. If they are not identified early in life they may or may not become sith. U cannot oppress or cage them because they have the force and (might one day) become sith. Everyone has the wright to be free even when they have the force all thought it could lead to devastating evil power. They are few but in the force their are less sith than their are Jedi. The people with the force are many and spread out over all races over the galaxy. You have the right to be free. You have the right to be Jedi or sith if you choose. If you choose the latter only then can you be punished or captured and even then you had to have done something wrong! Just learning the powers of the sith is not wrong(but risky as is learning blood magic you have to be in perfect control of your humanity which is possible) using them for harm is. Anakin was supported write through his training up and to the moment he did wrong and chose to become a sith lord. He was free as all man should be.

[11Razor11]

@Redux

MisterJB wrote...

One throwaway line by an idiot like Alistair is not compelling evidence vs all the lore of Dragon Age.



Alistair will say that Templars only receive lyrium if they've taken their vows. He'll also say he's never taken his vows, so how he's able to perform Templar abilities is a mystery. Then you have what he was taught by the Chantry to add in, about how lyrium might just be an amplifier and not a necessity for Templar abilities.

I could accept lyrium amplifying Templar abilities and the abilities themselves are predominantly triggered by a well-trained and disciplined mind. But I'm not a fan of the Templar stuff being retconned when Alistair makes it clear that he hasn't done what's necessary to be able to perform such acts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you @Redux

@MisterJB
This is exactly what I meant in what you can believe in the game world. You have to believe what Alistair tells you because he is proof that without lyrium you can do Templar abilities. How ever it is taught is no concern. All you need to know is the fact is in the game and that is that lyrium inhances templar abilities and it can be done with out it. Until there is lore stating otherwise you can't argue a that point it irrelevant. In the game alistair clearly teaches me how to become a Templar and specialies. There might not be a cut scene for it so the details stays mute until it is. It's a fantasy world use your imagination. I think maybe be by medatating and enchanted runes placed by tatoes on my back I can pull power from the fade but because I'm not a mage it neg energies negates magic energies... Hoe does that sound? Does it matter no it does not believe what ever you will but know as fact that you can do Templar skills with out lyrium until lore dictates else.

[MisterJB]

11Razor11 wrote...
No it doesn't it's fantasy. You just explained you believe in DA magic theory. When playing you never see the sword entering n' player's body he only gets cut and then a little salf gets used(no magic remember it's made by herbalism so you can't argue it's magical in nature) it's different science healing attribute that doesn't exist in our world in can cure many and deep cuts.

In a death scene players head gets shopped off for example and then a mage can raise dead with magic. So in DA world magic can raise dead if you see head fall off and if you see cuts you can be heal instantly with a salf(made from a plant). Haven't seen such a plant in our world so you except the DA world for what it is a fantasy world were only the fantasy world rules apply. That means if there is something you can't explain and the is no lore for it yet, you must except it as real in the world. That means to believe and have fun playing the game you have to believe what you do and can do in the game. You can rip 10 arrows out of yourself and heal quicker because flesh and healing science rules is different in this DA world.

First off, poltuces exists in our world. They're not something you drink, BTW.

Second, in the fight with the Arishok you can clearly see Hawke being run through with a sword and then get up just fine without being healed or anything. Your argument is that people in Thedas can just regrow their internal organs because the lore never stated they couldn't?
Hey, we never see how Hawke discovers who the trash he finds belongs to. Therefore, I now claim he has the prothean ability to see into the memory of things. The lore never disproves it.

See how stupid that sounds? Just learn the difference between Lore and Gameplay.
In Gameplay, you can stand there taking arrows all day without harm. In Lore, an arrow through the eye would put down Aveline quite easily.

The Jedi do people with the force get locked in circles. Do all of them have to be caged and opressed their whole life because they can become sith??? No.

YES! Have you read the EU? Have you any idea of the things both the Jedi and the Sith have done? They've destroyed entire planets! If anyone in the Star Wars Universe had any sense, they would lock all force users where they couldn't hurt others.

He was free as all man should be.

That is not an argument. That is a platitude.

11Razor11 wrote...
This is exactly what I meant in what you
can believe in the game world. You have to believe what Alistair tells
you because he is proof that without lyrium you can do Templar
abilities. How ever it is taught is no concern. All you need to know is
the fact is in the game and that is that lyrium inhances templar
abilities and it can be done with out it. Until there is lore stating
otherwise you can't argue a that point it irrelevant. In the game
alistair clearly teaches me how to become a Templar and specialies.
There might not be a cut scene for it so the details stays mute until it
is. It's a fantasy world use your imagination. I think maybe be by
medatating and enchanted runes placed by tatoes on my back I can pull
power from the fade but because I'm not a mage it neg energies negates
magic energies... Hoe does that sound? Does it matter no it does not
believe what ever you will but know as fact that you can do Templar
skills with out lyrium until lore dictates else.

How about I don't come up with stuff on my own and actually look to the Lore of Dragon Age? How does that sound?
There
is tons of lore that speak against what Alistair is claiming as well as
numerous templars, such as Evangeline, who claim you can't use their
abilities without lyrium.
Alistair and the PC are inconsistencies in
the Lore, even Mr.Gaider admitted so. And it's a mistake they are intent
on fixing considering that in "Those who Speak" Alistair uses templar abilities and remarks he drank lyrium in order to do so.

[11Razor11]

There is no diff in gameplay its how the world is created.

Can put Aveline down yes but she can get up quickly with a salf and her body heals better in Thedas that the real world yes that is how we see the facts we see it the whole time in DA.

Same with the Arishoks sword, yes. In Thedas everyone bleeds out slower.

Until they fix the lyrium "mistake if its one" in doesn't exist.

@MisterJB(YES! Have you read the EU? Have you any idea of the things both the Jedi and the Sith have done? They've destroyed entire planets! If anyone in the Star Wars Universe had any sense, they would lock all force users where they couldn't hurt others.) No,No this wil go against what is right and free. You can't live like that it won't work. Look at man kinds history what have we done to each other. If your statement is true every human race would be in jail before they are born You simply cannot apply such reasoning

@misterJB(Hey, we never see how Hawke discovers who the trash he finds belongs to. Therefore, I now claim he has the prothean ability to see into the memory of things. The lore never disproves it.)
YES, your right what ever you believe were there is no fact your right, that the beauty of it. That is a good one your write he might have, wonder if the world might mix one day. Can't wait to find out or imagine what I want.
PS: It could be written on it in very small letters maybe doesn't matter, it's what you believe in the fantasy would until proven different.

[11Razor11]

@MisterJB

In DAO I actually chose the Templars at the circle? I started a new play through this weekend. I'm just after Lothering now on the way to redcliffe. Going to read every lore and book in the game and refresh my mem. from DAO then Awe then DA2. Want to see if my views change through a different experience. going to play 2handed human noble straight through making all choices on being strong willed for justice peace and freedom with a touch of aggressive intimating stances all though trying to be fair and just to whole of Thedas. Long live the Warden. Maybe I just want to see Morrigan again...

[MisterJB]

YES, your right what ever you believe were there is no fact your right, that the beauty of it. That is a good one your write he might have, wonder if the world might mix one day. Can't wait to find out or imagine what I want.
PS: It could be written on it in very small letters maybe doesn't matter, it's what you believe in the fantasy would until proven different.

...you're not serious. You can't be.
Yeah, I'm done here

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

11Razor11 wrote...

There is no diff in gameplay its how the world is created.

Does that mean that in the world of TheDas when you hit someone magicla floating numbers appear to show how much damage one has done?


Did you even read any of the DA books? No?

Stop making a fool of yourself. Everyone knows gameplay and stor/lore are often time segregated.
What you see is NOT what really is.
That's just basic Common Sense.
If that is not enough for you, even the developers confirm this.

[Festilence]

I've just finished my first play-through (a couple of years late I know!). I played as a Female Warrior Hawke (see my display picture) who romanced Anders. The whole Anders destroying the Chantry thing was a major OH EM EFF GEE moment and I was genuinely pissed off at him for doing it.

I did let him stick with me and "completed" the Romance, but I have to say I was really tempted to just let him go or even kill him. It felt a bit bizarre though, having a go at him for basically being a murderer but then Hawke telling him not long after that "we'll be fugitives together".

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

One throwaway line by an idiot like Alistair is not compelling evidence vs all the lore of Dragon Age.

Alistair will say that Templars only receive lyrium if they've taken their vows. He'll also say he's never taken his vows, so how he's able to perform Templar abilities is a mystery. Then you have what he was taught by the Chantry to add in, about how lyrium might just be an amplifier and not a necessity for Templar abilities.

Which was the entire premise of Alistair's argument to The Warden.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I could accept lyrium amplifying Templar abilities and the abilities themselves are predominantly triggered by a well-trained and disciplined mind. But I'm not a fan of the Templar stuff being retconned when Alistair makes it clear that he hasn't done what's necessary to be able to perform such acts. 

It wouldn't be the first time we've seen something rectonned in Dragon Age.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars of Tevinter aren't all able to use the Templar abilities IIRC. So it would seem that Alistair isn't entirely correct in his theory. Perhaps having mageblood in your veins acts as a capable surrogate for lyrium, which could explain why some mundanes are able to learn Templar abilities without ingesting lyrium. It would also further lend credence to the whole Alistair is Fiona's son theory.

[74 Wrex]

Question: Did Anyone Kill Anders
Answer: I did and I enjoyed it the bastard deserved it

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Templars of Tevinter aren't all able to use the Templar abilities IIRC.

Correct, more or less. The Tevinter Magisters control the Chantry -- which controls the Circle and Templars, placing those two things in their control as well -- and control all the lyrium. As a result, the majority of Templars can't use their magical anti-magic abilities and exist primarily as cannon fodder troops. 

So it would seem that Alistair isn't entirely correct in his theory. Perhaps having mageblood in your veins acts as a capable surrogate for lyrium, which could explain why some mundanes are able to learn Templar abilities without ingesting lyrium.

My Dwarf Warden has mage blood? Awesome.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Templars of Tevinter aren't all able to use the Templar abilities IIRC. So it would seem that Alistair isn't entirely correct in his theory. Perhaps having mageblood in your veins acts as a capable surrogate for lyrium, which could explain why some mundanes are able to learn Templar abilities without ingesting lyrium. It would also further lend credence to the whole Alistair is Fiona's son theory.

Yet in DAO, a Dwarf could (and sometimes did) learn Templar abilities and was identifiable to other Templars (Ser Otto) as a Templar (or at least one that has had templar training).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

The case of dwarf Templars are probably just a gameplay decision. Since there are no other dwarf Templar ever mentioned in the entirety of the Dragon Age lore, we might aswell just say it is a gameplay issue. Or perhaps the dwarven warden did take lyrium, just did so off-screen. There can literally be hundreds of explanations.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The case of dwarf Templars are probably just a gameplay decision. Since there are no other dwarf Templar ever mentioned in the entirety of the Dragon Age lore, we might aswell just say it is a gameplay issue. Or perhaps the dwarven warden did take lyrium, just did so off-screen. There can literally be hundreds of explanations.

The point is that according to the dialog (which becomes part of the world canon), you do not have to quaff lyrium to have templar abilities.  The lyrium may (or may not) augment them.  The gameplay confirms this by allowing non-templar warriors to learn templar abilities without any lyrium used at all.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

I know Gaider tried to backtrack on it and make lyrium a requirement, but it's already established canon that Templars don't need lyrium. It would remove Alistair's abilities throughout the entire year he fought the blight absolutely useless and thus didn't happen because he didn't have access to those abilities because he never took lyrium.

If we remove the canon, we remove a huge chunk of DAO, with Alistair's comments to the Warden and in party banter as he discusses how he never took his final vows.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You don't have to remove anything from the lore. You jsut have to explain why Alistair was able to use Templar abilities without ever ingesting Lyrium. That can be done in hundreds of different ways. You can go full recon and just state that Alistair did take lyrium, and continued to do so, and that the entire line should be dismissed as no longer canon. Or you could go about it differently, like saying that tehre are specific individuals, with some unknown quality, who are able to use the Templar abilities without aid of Lyrium. I'm sure tehre are many more ways of explaining it, none of which neccesarily contradicts already established lore, but merely contradicts Alistair's perception of truth.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't have to remove anything from the lore. You jsut have to explain why Alistair was able to use Templar abilities without ever ingesting Lyrium. That can be done in hundreds of different ways. You can go full recon and just state that Alistair did take lyrium, and continued to do so, and that the entire line should be dismissed as no longer canon. Or you could go about it differently, like saying that tehre are specific individuals, with some unknown quality, who are able to use the Templar abilities without aid of Lyrium. I'm sure tehre are many more ways of explaining it, none of which neccesarily contradicts already established lore, but merely contradicts Alistair's perception of truth.

It doesn't work no matter how hard you try because not only was Alister able to use Templar abilities w/o ingesting lyrium but he was able to train every other warrior in the party including the Warden to do the same.  This ability was aknowledged by at least one Templar in dialog (Ser Otto) and thus isn't pure game-play.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

You are also able to make Anders and Wynne blood mages, both of them abhors the very idea, and both instances are certainly not canon. Just because it is recognized in the game does not make it canon persay. If you make Anders or Wynne blood mages, they are so purely for gameplay reasons.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are also able to make Anders and Wynne blood mages, both of them abhors the very idea, and both instances are certainly not canon. Just because it is recognized in the game does not make it canon persay. If you make Anders or Wynne blood mages, they are so purely for gameplay reasons.

There is no intrinsic reason why Anders and Wynne can not become bloodmages so your argument is invalid.  In fact much of Ander's Vengeance tree in DA2 is just a step removed from bloodmagic if you look at it carefully.

I never said that making others Bloodmages (or Templars) was canon, but the ability for Alistair to teach others Templar abilitis IS canon.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Alistair is able to use the abilities, so it stands to reason that he would know how to pass on that knowledge. The real question is wether or not any students of his would be able to use said abilities, canon-wise. We know they are able to for purely gameplay mechanical reasons, but so far it is ambiguous what their status in lore is.
We have a grand total of one source claiming you dont need lyrium to learn Templar abilities, and a whole bunch of circumstancial gameplay "evidence". There is no retcon needed, just a bit of elaboration on the topic.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Alistair is able to use the abilities, so it stands to reason that he would know how to pass on that knowledge. The real question is wether or not any students of his would be able to use said abilities, canon-wise. We know they are able to for purely gameplay mechanical reasons, but so far it is ambiguous what their status in lore is.
We have a grand total of one source claiming you dont need lyrium to learn Templar abilities, and a whole bunch of circumstancial gameplay "evidence". There is no retcon needed, just a bit of elaboration on the topic.

No it doesn't.  If as you suggest, Alistair is able to use his abilities without lyrium because of his special blood or circumstance, then he would NOT be able to teach others since they would not have his bloodlines or special circumstances.  Since we know for a fact he can, your theory is disproven.

The Canon is clear no matter how much DG might wish it weren't.  Templars DO NOT need lyrium to use their abilities (although it is very commonly believed otherwise).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

THe only thing Alistair being able to teach the abilities to others proves, is that he is able to pass on the THEORY of how they work. If whoever he teaches was actually able to use the abilities in practice is another matter, which we only have gameplay to suggest. So no, the lore is not clear on anything.