2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Reikilea]

Festilence wrote...

I've just finished my first play-through (a couple of years late I know!). I played as a Female Warrior Hawke (see my display picture) who romanced Anders. The whole Anders destroying the Chantry thing was a major OH EM EFF GEE moment and I was genuinely pissed off at him for doing it.

I did let him stick with me and "completed" the Romance, but I have to say I was really tempted to just let him go or even kill him. It felt a bit bizarre though, having a go at him for basically being a murderer but then Hawke telling him not long after that "we'll be fugitives together".

I always wonder how people could not expect that. That was soo obvious. I was eagerly expecting that, because finally something logical was happening. And basically he did the same as Isabella. If we didnt have option to kill Isabella why option to kill Anders. Why not same as her - ship him to templars and give him a chance to escape as we did for Isabella.

And everyone in DA is murderer. Isabella started one war, Fenris is also one (I remember something about murdering a large gruop of people), Merril quest had an option to kill off her whole clan because of her actions...   

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

THe only thing Alistair being able to teach the abilities to others proves, is that he is able to pass on the THEORY of how they work. If whoever he teaches was actually able to use the abilities in practice is another matter, which we only have gameplay to suggest. So no, the lore is not clear on anything.

Wrong.  Ser Otto recognizes an Alistair taught Templar as a Templar, so it's not just gameplay.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Reikilea wrote...

And everyone in DA is murderer. Isabella started one war, Fenris is also one (I remember something about murdering a large gruop of people), Merril quest had an option to kill off her whole clan because of her actions...   

I take exception with the Merrill example.  At no point does Merrill murder anyone.  Her CLAN attacks Hawke and commits suicide by Hawke, but that is definately not the same as murder....and no she doesn't murder her keeper either.  Meretheri caused her own death by going abomination with a Pride demon.

-Polaris

[Reikilea]

IanPolaris wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

And everyone in DA is murderer. Isabella started one war, Fenris is also one (I remember something about murdering a large gruop of people), Merril quest had an option to kill off her whole clan because of her actions...   

I take exception with the Merrill example.  At no point does Merrill murder anyone.  Her CLAN attacks Hawke and commits suicide by Hawke, but that is definately not the same as murder....and no she doesn't murder her keeper either.  Meretheri caused her own death by going abomination with a Pride demon.

-Polaris

It´s still her actions that caused all that. She could have prevented it - if she listened ot the keeper oe eve to Hawke. She did not and outcome of her action was the keepers death and possible also her clan death too.  However she never listend to them, and thats why it she can be blamed.

Its always outcome of our action that can cause all the problems. No one from DA2 characters is morally clear.

Ok maybe Varric but because he was meant to be perfectly neutral so everyone would like him.

[IanPolaris]

Reikilea wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

And everyone in DA is murderer. Isabella started one war, Fenris is also one (I remember something about murdering a large gruop of people), Merril quest had an option to kill off her whole clan because of her actions...   

I take exception with the Merrill example.  At no point does Merrill murder anyone.  Her CLAN attacks Hawke and commits suicide by Hawke, but that is definately not the same as murder....and no she doesn't murder her keeper either.  Meretheri caused her own death by going abomination with a Pride demon.

-Polaris

It´s still her actions that caused all that. She could have prevented it - if she listened ot the keeper oe eve to Hawke. She did not and outcome of her action was the keepers death and possible also her clan death too.  However she never listend to them, and thats why it she can be blamed.

Its always outcome of our action that can cause all the problems. No one from DA2 characters is morally clear.

Ok maybe Varric but because he was meant to be perfectly neutral so everyone would like him.

I catagorically deny that sort of moral responsibility.  Once someone else has the option to make an independant moral judgement your moral responsibility ENDS.  Otherwise everyone would be responsible for everything (and thus ironically nothing).

-Polaris

[Reikilea]

IanPolaris wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

And everyone in DA is murderer. Isabella started one war, Fenris is also one (I remember something about murdering a large gruop of people), Merril quest had an option to kill off her whole clan because of her actions...   

I take exception with the Merrill example.  At no point does Merrill murder anyone.  Her CLAN attacks Hawke and commits suicide by Hawke, but that is definately not the same as murder....and no she doesn't murder her keeper either.  Meretheri caused her own death by going abomination with a Pride demon.

-Polaris

I catagorically deny that sort of moral responsibility.  Once someone else has the option to make an independant moral judgement your moral responsibility ENDS.  Otherwise everyone would be responsible for everything (and thus ironically nothing).

-Polaris

Yes. I understand. However, thats questionable when we are talking about  Merril. She knew the risks, she knew what her actions may cause. She had to know the keeper would to try to do something, because she
simply loved Merril. Merril was either willing to risk it (all for the good cause - you can say that very similar to what Anders did), or she was completely oblivious and naive. And I want to believe the first option.  To say it all was one big misunderstanding is like making her completely innocent and heavenly. Yet she never listened to the other
people warnings and did that anyway. 

It´s still her actions that caused all that. She could have prevented it - if she listened to the keeper oe eve to Hawke. She did not and outcome of her action was the keepers death and possible also her clan death too.  However she never listend to them, and thats why it she can be blamed.

Its always outcome of our action that can cause all the problems. No one from DA2 characters is morally clear.

Ok maybe Varric but because he was meant to be perfectly neutral so everyone would like him.

Modifié par Reikilea, 02 février 2013 - 11:33 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 Just because it is recognized in the game does not make it canon persay.

That's exactly how it works. Since Anders will be able to recognize how he's a blood mage, he was a blood mage for Awakening and then stopped prior to DAII since he was A) no longer among the Wardens, so there was no call for it and because he detests it anyway.

If the game recognizes something by way of banter, dialogue, cutscene, or whatever then it is canon.

Wynne, on the other hand, is a case of being just a pure gameplay decision. Same thing with making Irving a blood mage if he's sent to the Fade.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If whoever he teaches was actually able to use the abilities in practice is another matter, which we only have gameplay to suggest. So no, the lore is not clear on anything.

Ser Otto will recognize it. He'll talk about how the air of the Alienage feels wrong, which a Templar Warden -- and only a Templar Warden -- can agree with by saying they feel it too. He then remarks on being able to sense how you're a Templar too and that he's glad he's not alone in that belief.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 février 2013 - 03:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ser Otto only ever recognizes the Warden. Needless to say the Warden is a special individual, so it won't be hard to write him into the same circumstances that allow for Alistar to cast the spells.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ser Otto only ever recognizes the Warden. Needless to say the Warden is a special individual, so it won't be hard to write him into the same circumstances that allow for Alistar to cast the spells.

Actually it would be considering the warden can come from any race or background, be a templar and be recognized as such by Ser Otto.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no reason for an Elf to be unable to learn the Templar abilities. The only reason there aren't any Elf Templars are probably more a racism issue, rather than actual ability. Dwarves on the other hand may be more complicated, of course the reason tehre aren't many (or indeed any) Dwarf Templars are probably linked to the fact that Dwarves are rare. However Dwarves do have a special conenction to lyrium, and some very unique racial qualities, so not even the Dwarven warden would be hard to explain.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no reason for an Elf to be unable to learn the Templar abilities. The only reason there aren't any Elf Templars are probably more a racism issue, rather than actual ability. Dwarves on the other hand may be more complicated, of course the reason tehre aren't many (or indeed any) Dwarf Templars are probably linked to the fact that Dwarves are rare. However Dwarves do have a special conenction to lyrium, and some very unique racial qualities, so not even the Dwarven warden would be hard to explain.

Now you are reaching.  I appeal to Occam's razor.  The simpliest hypothesis that explains what we see in the lore and the game is that Templars don't in fact need lyrium to use their abilities. 

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

That is not what we see in the game however. Might have been in DA:O, but even then not all Tevinter Templars could use the Templar spells, so evidently there is something more to it. Now in DA2 it is flat out stated that you need lyrium to even learn the abilities, not just empower them.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not what we see in the game however. Might have been in DA:O, but even then not all Tevinter Templars could use the Templar spells, so evidently there is something more to it. Now in DA2 it is flat out stated that you need lyrium to even learn the abilities, not just empower them.

We DO see it inb the game.  We have clear evidence in DAO both in the spoken lore and game play that Templars don't need lyrium to use their abilities.  We also know that the Orelesian Chantry keeps those secrets very close to the vest, and that it's widely believed by Templars and lay-people alike that Lyrium is needed.

DG may have tried to retcon it, but he can't without completely evicersating the lore in DAO.

So right now the canon is clear, templars don't need to use lyrium to power their abilities but it's widely believed to be otherwise.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tehn please do explain why not all the Tevinter Templars are able to use the talents, if indeed they dont require Lyrium. Already back in DAO the entire subject was convulted. So it is not as clearcut as you claim.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tehn please do explain why not all the Tevinter Templars are able to use the talents, if indeed they dont require Lyrium. Already back in DAO the entire subject was convulted. So it is not as clearcut as you claim.

That's easy.  The Tevinter Templars don't know the techniques apparently and/or the Magisters of the Imperium forbid their templars from learning them.   That at least is just as valid an explaination as your own and fits the facts at least as well.  You can not use the fact that the Tevinter Templars don't have these abilities as evidence that lyrium is required.  It's a non-sequitor.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

There are Tevinter Templars who know and learn the techniques however, so that is not the issue. The issue is that some of the Tevinter Templars are straight up unable to learn them. Given the limited supplies of lyrium in Tevinter, this speaks for both ideas. Some people are able to learn the abilities without the aid of lyrium, while others must have lyrium to unlock these abilities.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are Tevinter Templars who know and learn the techniques however, so that is not the issue. The issue is that some of the Tevinter Templars are straight up unable to learn them. Given the limited supplies of lyrium in Tevinter, this speaks for both ideas. Some people are able to learn the abilities without the aid of lyrium, while others must have lyrium to unlock these abilities.

Let me quote Alistair on that point.

I liked the training. I was quite good at it. But I especially liked the discipline. It takes a disciplined mind to use our talents.

Whose to say that those Tevinter Templars couldn't learn the abilities NOT because lyrium wasn't involved, but because they didn't understand that a disciplined mind is the thing required.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 04 février 2013 - 05:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then they wouldn't be Templars.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then they wouldn't be Templars.

And yet they are recognized as templars by the Imperium.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then they wouldn't be Templars.

And yet they are recognized as templars by the Imperium.

If you do not have a dicsiplined mind, you cannot become a Templar wether you can learn the abilities or not. If you do not cut it as a Templar you are weeded out. Every single Templar have highly disciplined minds. Every. Single. One. So even the ones in Tevinter must have such aswell, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance against mages. There is something else which prevents them from learning the abilities. Oh yes, lack of Lyrium...

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then they wouldn't be Templars.

By the standards of the Andrastian Chantry they aren't.  Tevinter Chantry have been reduced to Magister Military Police for a long time now.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then they wouldn't be Templars.

And yet they are recognized as templars by the Imperium.

If you do not have a dicsiplined mind, you cannot become a Templar wether you can learn the abilities or not. If you do not cut it as a Templar you are weeded out. Every single Templar have highly disciplined minds. Every. Single. One. So even the ones in Tevinter must have such aswell, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance against mages. There is something else which prevents them from learning the abilities. Oh yes, lack of Lyrium...

I think the Bioware blog entries make it very clear that the Tevinter Templars are Templars in name only and are really just mundane soldiers in service of the magisters and the Tevinter Chantry.  They aren't taught (and likely no longer know) the same abilities.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Reikilea wrote...

And everyone in DA is murderer. Isabella started one war, Fenris is also one (I remember something about murdering a large gruop of people), Merril quest had an option to kill off her whole clan because of her actions...    

I strongly disagree. The clan committed suicide by Hawke when they attempting to murder Merrill, and Hawke, in cold blood if the Champion tells them the truth about what Marethari did, or warns them not to attempt to commit murder because their Keeper became an abomination. And who released Audacity from its ancient prison, where it was sundered from the Fade for centuries? Marethari did, because she came to a conclusion that likely came from Audacity (since it has nothing to do with her claims in Act II), which means she was likely duped by Audacity into being released.

Reikilea wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I take exception with the Merrill example.  At no point does Merrill murder anyone.  Her CLAN attacks Hawke and commits suicide by Hawke, but that is definately not the same as murder....and no she doesn't murder her keeper either.  Meretheri caused her own death by going abomination with a Pride demon.

-Polaris

It´s still her actions that caused all that. She could have prevented it - if she listened ot the keeper oe eve to Hawke. She did not and outcome of her action was the keepers death and possible also her clan death too.  However she never listend to them, and thats why it she can be blamed.

Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard. You know who knew what they were talking about when it came to the Eluvian? Merrill. You know who knew next to nothing about the Eluvian? Keeper Marethari and Hawke.

If Marethari makes it clear she hasn't bothered to put any effort into researching the Eluvian, why should Merrill listen to her? When Marethari claims the taint will contaminate Merrill years after she already successfully cleansed the shard of the taint, why should Merrill listen to her? When Hawke, as a human, knows virtually nothing about elven culture or their technology, why should Merrill listen to Hawke if he opposes her research into technology that could revitalize and revolutionize the People?

Reikilea wrote...

Its always outcome of our action that can cause all the problems. No one from DA2 characters is morally clear.

Ok maybe Varric but because he was meant to be perfectly neutral so everyone would like him.

Well, Varric does say Hawke was a white Ferelden in his legendary tales, even if the Champion was actually brown or black...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 février 2013 - 06:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then they wouldn't be Templars.

And yet they are recognized as templars by the Imperium.

If you do not have a dicsiplined mind, you cannot become a Templar wether you can learn the abilities or not. If you do not cut it as a Templar you are weeded out. Every single Templar have highly disciplined minds. Every. Single. One. So even the ones in Tevinter must have such aswell, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance against mages. There is something else which prevents them from learning the abilities. Oh yes, lack of Lyrium...

I think the Bioware blog entries make it very clear that the Tevinter Templars are Templars in name only and are really just mundane soldiers in service of the magisters and the Tevinter Chantry.  They aren't taught (and likely no longer know) the same abilities.

-Polaris

There are Imperial Templars who know the Templar talents. This begs the question why far the majority of the Imperial Templars are unable to learn these abilities. If as you claim any man and his dog could learn the Templar talents, then surely the majority of even Tevinter's Templars would have learned the talents too, despite their lack of Lyrium. However, that is not the case, which brings us to the issue of Alistair's claims.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are Imperial Templars who know the Templar talents. This begs the question why far the majority of the Imperial Templars are unable to learn these abilities. If as you claim any man and his dog could learn the Templar talents, then surely the majority of even Tevinter's Templars would have learned the talents too, despite their lack of Lyrium. However, that is not the case, which brings us to the issue of Alistair's claims.

Citation needed.  The only reference I am familiar with re the Imperial Templars is that they are Templars in name only and have been reduced to soldier/police of the magisters.  Even is some of them do, no question is begged.  After all, the magisters would have it in their strong self-interest to keep anti-magical abilities tightly controlled and the magisters control the Imperial Chantry.

Basically Imperial Templar ==/== Templar (as shown in the game) and you can not compare the two, so your entire argument is a non-sequitor.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Just because anti-magic Templar abilities don't require lyrium doesn't mean that knowledge is widely available or easy to learn espeecially in Tevinter I'd imagine.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 04 février 2013 - 07:37 .