I can see my last thread about Anders potentially breaking into debate, plus I think a thread like this will be pretty interesting if it sees a decent amont of action. Also, this doesn't apply to just mages of the Circle, it applies to all mages.
I'll start.
I think the Chantry is doing the right thing. With the events in Kirkwall, we truly see that mages are just like anyone else. Except for the fact that they're born with great power. Power breeds corruption, and for that reason, the power the mages command needs to be kept in check. A simple man can kill 10 people with 1 sword, while a simple mage can kill 100. If you loosen the noose of power, it will only seek to break free of it.
The way the Chantry does things is regretful, but necessary. It seems that any time a mages escapes, or is given wiggle room, the succumb to corruption. Even the First Enchanter became corrupt, he resorted to blood magic and became an abomination. You cant tell me that if a First Enchanter became greedy and corrupt with power, then other mages are immune to such desires. There are so many apostates turned abomination, it's just too great a risk to let the mages run free.
In short, too many mages become corrupt and dangerous. They need to be watched, every generation needs to keep them in check with a tight noose.
The Chantry vs The Circle Debate Thread
Débuté par
sevenplusone
, mars 12 2011 04:52
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:02
ReD BaKen9
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well there are Loyalists mages who seek to strengthen the ties between mages and the Chantry and seek a closer 'cooperation' between the two. They often come into conflict with the Libertarians on this matter.
#3
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:04
cactusberry
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One cannot survive without the other! We need a way of balance, peace, but controlled.
#4
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:16
DarkSpider88
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I can't believe I am debating ethics in a video game but what the hell.
Your main argument is that the power of mages breeds corruption and while that point is valid given how almost every social structure in Thedas works. The templers control and confine the mages to the circle because they are afraid they will abuse their power. How much of that abuse of power come from them just wanting freedom to enjoy the pleasures of life. If you did the quest where you round up mages there is a guy who wants to be free just because he doesn't want to die a virgin. That instance and others leads me to believe a life in the circle is really a life at all.
It is my belief that if mages were allowed to stay or go back to their families there would be a drastic reduction in blood magic. My guess is if mages were allowed to stay with their families and be able to participate in life there would be no reason to resort to blood magic. Hawke's sister Bethany is a prime example that a mage can be good. Bethany was raised and loved by her family, she didn't get to have a full life but she got to experience more than any other mage. If Bethany can do it so can others.
Of course there is no reason to debate your stance unless I have a better solution. Restructure the circle to where mages look after mages. This is like the Grey Wardens, a self-governing body who has more power than the ordinary citizen but chooses to use it for good. The only difference would be these mages would not have to stay with other wardens but with their families or where they choose. The Circle can be turned to where they train mages to control their powers and then be released back into the world. Another option would be to create a major city where mages and their families can move to while a young mage gets training, sort of like a mage school.
The point is there is numerous ways the circle can be redone to where mages aren't cut from their families and life. Does a person with explosives not have the ability to kill a hundred people (dwarves have explosives so the metaphor is valid). Mages only turn to blood magic because the structure from which they live is nothing but oppression. Sure there will still be those who abuse their power and those mages should be taken care of by other mages. Have we not seen Templers abuse their power?
Really I could makes this really long and more clear but again this is a video game.
Your main argument is that the power of mages breeds corruption and while that point is valid given how almost every social structure in Thedas works. The templers control and confine the mages to the circle because they are afraid they will abuse their power. How much of that abuse of power come from them just wanting freedom to enjoy the pleasures of life. If you did the quest where you round up mages there is a guy who wants to be free just because he doesn't want to die a virgin. That instance and others leads me to believe a life in the circle is really a life at all.
It is my belief that if mages were allowed to stay or go back to their families there would be a drastic reduction in blood magic. My guess is if mages were allowed to stay with their families and be able to participate in life there would be no reason to resort to blood magic. Hawke's sister Bethany is a prime example that a mage can be good. Bethany was raised and loved by her family, she didn't get to have a full life but she got to experience more than any other mage. If Bethany can do it so can others.
Of course there is no reason to debate your stance unless I have a better solution. Restructure the circle to where mages look after mages. This is like the Grey Wardens, a self-governing body who has more power than the ordinary citizen but chooses to use it for good. The only difference would be these mages would not have to stay with other wardens but with their families or where they choose. The Circle can be turned to where they train mages to control their powers and then be released back into the world. Another option would be to create a major city where mages and their families can move to while a young mage gets training, sort of like a mage school.
The point is there is numerous ways the circle can be redone to where mages aren't cut from their families and life. Does a person with explosives not have the ability to kill a hundred people (dwarves have explosives so the metaphor is valid). Mages only turn to blood magic because the structure from which they live is nothing but oppression. Sure there will still be those who abuse their power and those mages should be taken care of by other mages. Have we not seen Templers abuse their power?
Really I could makes this really long and more clear but again this is a video game.
Modifié par DarkSpider88, 12 mars 2011 - 05:17 .
#5
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:19
Raiil
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I've been pretty anti-Chantry since DA:O.
I don't necessarily want to see them go completely away. What I do want is their political influence and outright power stopped. Ferelden languished because the Chantry said that the Maker wanted Orlais to rule over Ferelden (iirc, it's been a while since I've read The Stolen Throne), and no one seemed to think about the fact that the Orlais is heavily tied into Orlesian politics. I think there is a need for templars, simply as a buffer against mages. But no one should be jailed for something they might do, or might become.
I don't necessarily want to see them go completely away. What I do want is their political influence and outright power stopped. Ferelden languished because the Chantry said that the Maker wanted Orlais to rule over Ferelden (iirc, it's been a while since I've read The Stolen Throne), and no one seemed to think about the fact that the Orlais is heavily tied into Orlesian politics. I think there is a need for templars, simply as a buffer against mages. But no one should be jailed for something they might do, or might become.
#6
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:22
DarkSpider88
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Valentia X wrote...
I've been pretty anti-Chantry since DA:O.
I don't necessarily want to see them go completely away. What I do want is their political influence and outright power stopped. Ferelden languished because the Chantry said that the Maker wanted Orlais to rule over Ferelden (iirc, it's been a while since I've read The Stolen Throne), and no one seemed to think about the fact that the Orlais is heavily tied into Orlesian politics. I think there is a need for templars, simply as a buffer against mages. But no one should be jailed for something they might do, or might become.
Agreed no one should be locked away for what they could do, forgot to mention that.
#7
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:27
Urazz
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I agree that mages that are corrupted by their power and abuse it are definately more likely to cause more damage than a regular person but I think that jailing them and abusing them like the templars in Kirkwall have done is more likely to cause more mages to resort to blood magic out of desperation or be more susceptible to possession.
I'm not saying the Templars are wrong but they should serve more to go after criminal mages and work with the mages in apprehending those criminals. Also, the Templars should be seperated from the Chantry and serve more as an elite guard force for fighting criminal mages.
The circle itself should actually serve more as a school to educate new mages (on how to avoid possession and how to use their abilities) and once they pass their Harrowing, they can go back to living a normal life, or at least as much of a normal life a mage can have.
I'm not saying the Templars are wrong but they should serve more to go after criminal mages and work with the mages in apprehending those criminals. Also, the Templars should be seperated from the Chantry and serve more as an elite guard force for fighting criminal mages.
The circle itself should actually serve more as a school to educate new mages (on how to avoid possession and how to use their abilities) and once they pass their Harrowing, they can go back to living a normal life, or at least as much of a normal life a mage can have.
Modifié par Urazz, 12 mars 2011 - 05:29 .
#8
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:30
Fannlyn
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DarkSpider88 wrote...
Valentia X wrote...
I've been pretty anti-Chantry since DA:O.
I don't necessarily want to see them go completely away. What I do want is their political influence and outright power stopped. Ferelden languished because the Chantry said that the Maker wanted Orlais to rule over Ferelden (iirc, it's been a while since I've read The Stolen Throne), and no one seemed to think about the fact that the Orlais is heavily tied into Orlesian politics. I think there is a need for templars, simply as a buffer against mages. But no one should be jailed for something they might do, or might become.
Agreed no one should be locked away for what they could do, forgot to mention that.
Took the words right out of my mouth. A crime cannot be punished before it is committed.
#9
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:31
Lea-Anne
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You forget that The Chantry can be just as bat-crap crazy as the mages. Templars have magical ability just like those they claim to hate, yet no one chastises them, nor questions it.
And besides in this game series has being a mage been the only time someone has committed mass murder?
Both factions have corruption.
And besides in this game series has being a mage been the only time someone has committed mass murder?
Both factions have corruption.
#10
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:34
ExiledMimic
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Well looking at the stark contrast in mages between Origins and DA2... they had a Knight-Commander who was vigilant, maybe paranoid, but even there the instances of blood magic was brought about because of the Chantry's rule. Jowan resorted to it so he could ascend to mage-hood. He wasn't an evil man, didn't want to do evil things and it wasn't a demon that made him evil, just Loghain. And he wanted to repent for that.
In Kirkwall the mages are beaten, thrown down, belittled and treated like animals and finally get sick of it. A few, a very few, stay the course of pacifism (relatively) and are slaughtered in a cutscene. Only the bloodmages survive. Where in DAO some mages refused to give in. They fought, and some survived. In the end the major difference, even in the canon of Dragon Age lore, is that to treat a mage humanely gives them a peace that helps them resist temptation. Where if you smash them down it's like kicking a rocket launcher.
Wynne was possibly the single most pleasant character in Bioware history. She was a Circle mage and a bit adventurous by her own standards. Even Morrigan wasn't evil, though whoever wrote her sure was when he made it so hard to romance her. She was apostate, even. I think Kirkwall poured acid into the pot when caring for the Mages, and even broke Chantry law for years (by admission in game). I think in the end we only have this specific installment of the series to blame for mages being smashed into the dirt. It's the first that it happens and counts, quite specifically, as a fluke.
In Kirkwall the mages are beaten, thrown down, belittled and treated like animals and finally get sick of it. A few, a very few, stay the course of pacifism (relatively) and are slaughtered in a cutscene. Only the bloodmages survive. Where in DAO some mages refused to give in. They fought, and some survived. In the end the major difference, even in the canon of Dragon Age lore, is that to treat a mage humanely gives them a peace that helps them resist temptation. Where if you smash them down it's like kicking a rocket launcher.
Wynne was possibly the single most pleasant character in Bioware history. She was a Circle mage and a bit adventurous by her own standards. Even Morrigan wasn't evil, though whoever wrote her sure was when he made it so hard to romance her. She was apostate, even. I think Kirkwall poured acid into the pot when caring for the Mages, and even broke Chantry law for years (by admission in game). I think in the end we only have this specific installment of the series to blame for mages being smashed into the dirt. It's the first that it happens and counts, quite specifically, as a fluke.
#11
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 05:39
lost lupus
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meh i cannot help but believe all people have unalienable rights and that untill you have done something wrong/ plan to do wrong you should not be punished
i apply this to mage's too sure they could be a danger but that doesnt give you the right to cage them simple because of what they might do
for me it really is that simple
not to mention all the good mage's do many would die if not for mages willing to help the injured or dying (
in truth locking up mages and then using their magic at your whim is explotation
i apply this to mage's too sure they could be a danger but that doesnt give you the right to cage them simple because of what they might do
for me it really is that simple
not to mention all the good mage's do many would die if not for mages willing to help the injured or dying (
in truth locking up mages and then using their magic at your whim is explotation
#12
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 07:09
ReD BaKen9
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not trying to be racist but think of like when the african americans went into slavery. they were born with there skin and they couldent help it and because they were different and 'dangerous' alot of people dident like them and some people thought it was wrong which led to civil war. Sorta relates to mages. (once again not tryin to be racist)
#13
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 07:27
RazorrX
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The thing is, you see from the high cleric that the chantry is not really bad. The Templars are. They are not the same thing. The church/chantry tries to do good, it wants to protect the world, and sees that mages are dangerous, etc. The Templars are the church militant. They have been given way too much freedom and power. The templars determine HOW to police the mages, not the high cleric. Notice that the Knight Marshal did NOT answer totally to the high cleric.
Mages are dangerous. Blood magic is evil and vile, etc. DA2 showed what happens when you dehumanize mages for too long. Beat a dog long enough and they may just go for your throat. What happened in Kirkwall is proof that there was NOT enough oversight on the templars and as a result abominations and blood magic was everywhere.
I found I am not so much against the chantry now (As I was before) as I am really against the templars, and more to the point, the abusive templars. My mage tried hard to bring a compromise to the cause. I turned in evil mages (or killed them), got the good runaways to return, etc. but at the same time I killed the abusive templars. If I would have been allowed to, the chantry would never had blown up because when I found out Anders was an abomination, I would have killed him.
Heck, nut job cullen even sided with my mage against Merideth (so did carver), so maybe (MAYBE) he saw that what happened was caused by abuse, not because all mages are nutjobs.
Mages are dangerous. Blood magic is evil and vile, etc. DA2 showed what happens when you dehumanize mages for too long. Beat a dog long enough and they may just go for your throat. What happened in Kirkwall is proof that there was NOT enough oversight on the templars and as a result abominations and blood magic was everywhere.
I found I am not so much against the chantry now (As I was before) as I am really against the templars, and more to the point, the abusive templars. My mage tried hard to bring a compromise to the cause. I turned in evil mages (or killed them), got the good runaways to return, etc. but at the same time I killed the abusive templars. If I would have been allowed to, the chantry would never had blown up because when I found out Anders was an abomination, I would have killed him.
Heck, nut job cullen even sided with my mage against Merideth (so did carver), so maybe (MAYBE) he saw that what happened was caused by abuse, not because all mages are nutjobs.
#14
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 07:56
Denizen89
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I fought injustice on both sides but sided with the mages because heck I think the chantry should be treated more as a simple religious body, not be involved in worldly affairs. The Templars should be removed from Chantry supervision and given to either sovereign nations or the Circle itself to buffer and hunt down Blood Mages or the Evil ones that don't use it. I thought the situation was caused by Templar abuse and breaking of chantry law. This was evident with the Qunari crisis as well. Anders I thought was right though compromise is one thing but can always be over turned by lunatics and power hungry Divines or Revered Mothers. So I did not kill him because of the bigger worldly picture. Still did not approve of his course of action, he should have stuck that little bomb in the Templar Barracks. Still I killed many of the abominations and cruel templars it was a service to peace and stability. What would have happened if you became Viscount?
#15
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 08:03
TheCreeper
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It's a Chicken and egg thing in Kirkwall. The Mages turn to blood magic and demons because of how badly they are treated by the Templars, and the Templars treat them so badly because of the blood mages and demon. The Good news is no matter who you sided with the ending manages to basically purge alot of the stupid from the Mage rebellion/Templars.
#16
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 08:13
LobselVith8
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TheDarkRats wrote...
One cannot survive without the other! We need a way of balance, peace, but controlled.
I disagree. The Order of Templars and the Chantry want to control mages, and the mages of the Circle want to be free. There's no balance when the dicotomy is between independence and subjugation. It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
#17
Posté 12 mars 2011 - 09:29
PantheraOnca
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Give everyone templar training. Specifically the anti-mind-magic stuff. Not only would this greatly reduce the threat of mages, but it would create a booming lyrium industry to distribute the amounts necessary for the training.
#18
Posté 15 mars 2011 - 06:54
Mahtisonni
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Won't happen cus chantry chooses who gets to be a templar, which is basically why I hate them so much.
****ing hypocrites
Chantry: WAAH! WAAH! Mages are dangerous and must be guarded!
Me: Ok but if they're so dangerous, then who can guard them?
Chantry: No worries we can make templars with anti-magic skills.
Me: ...so can't we just train the city guard with these templar abilities so we don't have to violate their personal rights?
Chantry: umm....
Me: Good idea right?
Chantry: HERETIC! MAIM, BURN, KILL!
Me: Mr.Anderson, be my quest.
****ing hypocrites
Chantry: WAAH! WAAH! Mages are dangerous and must be guarded!
Me: Ok but if they're so dangerous, then who can guard them?
Chantry: No worries we can make templars with anti-magic skills.
Me: ...so can't we just train the city guard with these templar abilities so we don't have to violate their personal rights?
Chantry: umm....
Me: Good idea right?
Chantry: HERETIC! MAIM, BURN, KILL!
Me: Mr.Anderson, be my quest.
Modifié par Mahtisonni, 15 mars 2011 - 06:59 .
