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And thats why you can't trust professional reviews over user reviews.


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#76
Keele

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epiccrabs wrote...

Keele wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Keele, please....

It's common sense and knowledge how magazines and review sites work. Money makes the world go round.
If you ever get a real job, you might now what it means to work for a living and have bosses breathing down your neck.
Magazines get money from advertising and exclusives. It's publishers like EA that pay for advertising space and it is they who give exclusives. A conflict on interests clearly exist. This a plain and simple fact.

I don't see what you hope to gain from denying reality.

If this is such a plain and simple fact, then can you be so kind as to P-R-O-V-E it? He couldn't, you can't. 

The only thing that you two are good for, and any of the people on YOUR side, are opening your mouth and spouting meaningless nonsense that nobody, especially me, wants to hear.

I asked for CONCRETE EVIDENCE, and all I've gotten so far, and no doubt WILL continue to get is ****. ****. ****. ****.

So please, save your mid life crisis story about your hardships in working at McDonald's to somebody that's willing to give a crap. Such as your psychiatrist, for example.

The low down is this: You either present me something solid, or you just STFU, okay?



*cough* Kane and Lynch *cough*

*cough* BioWare/EA claim *cough*

Modifié par Keele, 12 mars 2011 - 11:47 .


#77
Zoe Dedweth

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Hmm - well don't much care for the reviews, Read them, agreed with a few of their critisisms, still enjoying the hell out of the game regardless.

#78
Ixalmaris

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Keele wrote...


Give me one good reason as to why I should respect this guy.


Because he stays rather civil even when faced with your constant ignoring of posts you don't like, flaming and personal attacks?

#79
Taura-Tierno

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*shrugs*

Of course big, commercial sites try to please the big producers. Which is why you take such reviews with a pinch of salt, and actually read them, and don't just look at the score, because honestly, the scores aren't really interesting; the descriptions of the game are. To some degree.

User reviews aren't much better when it comes to games; they're way too subjective to trust. Especially on a game like this, when some people hate it and some love it. It's impossible to get anything from scores alone. And difficult to get any impression from the text as well.

The above two points are the reasons why, when I read reviews, I read reviews by people whose tastes are similar to mine. Or why I ask friends who share my tastes in games. A comment or review from somebody I know is worth 10000 user scores or big site reviews.

#80
Jedra101

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Keele wrote...

I asked for CONCRETE EVIDENCE, and all I've gotten so far, and no doubt WILL continue to get is ****. ****. ****. ****.


Concerete evidence will not be given here.  The industry is all about suggestion.  No-one actually tells you to write a good review (in my experience anyway) however the pressure is there nonetheless.  The whole industry is about revenue, nothing else and to that end it's what everything is geared up to achieve.

People should not be naieve about this and should take as much information in as possible before formulating an opinion.  Reviews in the glossies are to some extent just another form of marketing.  They always were, and they always will be.

#81
Ixalmaris

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Jedra101 wrote...

Keele wrote...

I asked for CONCRETE EVIDENCE, and all I've gotten so far, and no doubt WILL continue to get is ****. ****. ****. ****.


Concerete evidence will not be given here.  The industry is all about suggestion.  No-one actually tells you to write a good review (in my experience anyway) however the pressure is there nonetheless.  The whole industry is about revenue, nothing else and to that end it's what everything is geared up to achieve.

People should not be naieve about this and should take as much information in as possible before formulating an opinion.  Reviews in the glossies are to some extent just another form of marketing.  They always were, and they always will be.


Actually concrete (about as concrete as it can get without a trial) proof was given (See first post about Kane & Lynch). But of course he ignores it.

#82
Byth

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We're really not gonna trust the metacritic scores as a honest review are we? I saw most of those reviews come up on release day. I don't know about you but I can't play a whole bioware game on release without skipping a lot of the game.

#83
Ixalmaris

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Byth wrote...

We're really not gonna trust the metacritic scores as a honest review are we? I saw most of those reviews come up on release day. I don't know about you but I can't play a whole bioware game on release without skipping a lot of the game.


You don't have to play through a game to find out that it is bad.

#84
Veracruz

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Because the job of professional reviewers depend on their employer making money. And the make money when gaming publishers buy advertisments and give exclusive material to them, which they won't do when their multi million dollar game gets a bad review.

What happens when a reviewer wants to escape this circle of dependency:
http://www.penny-arc...com/2007/11/30/
http://www.primotech...d-lynch-review/

Congratulations, you must be very proud of yourself after discovering that people who make professional reviews do it as a job and therefore are paid for it. No one else had ever noticed that.:ph34r:

About user reviews, fanboy and troll reviews should show you that they can be trusted as much as professional one. User Reviews in general?: you must read them, ignore the fluff and get the essence of them. And even then, nothing better that making an opinion of your own.

#85
Jedra101

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Veracruz wrote...

About user reviews, fanboy and troll reviews should show you that they can be trusted as much as professional one. User Reviews in general?: you must read them, ignore the fluff and get the essence of them. And even then, nothing better that making an opinion of your own.


Spot on!

#86
Keele

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Jedra101 wrote...

Keele wrote...

I asked for CONCRETE EVIDENCE, and all I've gotten so far, and no doubt WILL continue to get is ****. ****. ****. ****.


Concerete evidence will not be given here.  The industry is all about suggestion.  No-one actually tells you to write a good review (in my experience anyway) however the pressure is there nonetheless.  The whole industry is about revenue, nothing else and to that end it's what everything is geared up to achieve.

People should not be naieve about this and should take as much information in as possible before formulating an opinion.  Reviews in the glossies are to some extent just another form of marketing.  They always were, and they always will be.


Actually concrete (about as concrete as it can get without a trial) proof was given (See first post about Kane & Lynch). But of course he ignores it.


Yes, I've ignored it.

As for my reasons as to why, read my posts a few more times.

It seems that you've ignored those a lot too. ;)

#87
epiccrabs

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Keele wrote...

epiccrabs wrote...

Keele wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Keele, please....

It's common sense and knowledge how magazines and review sites work. Money makes the world go round.
If you ever get a real job, you might now what it means to work for a living and have bosses breathing down your neck.
Magazines get money from advertising and exclusives. It's publishers like EA that pay for advertising space and it is they who give exclusives. A conflict on interests clearly exist. This a plain and simple fact.

I don't see what you hope to gain from denying reality.

If this is such a plain and simple fact, then can you be so kind as to P-R-O-V-E it? He couldn't, you can't. 

The only thing that you two are good for, and any of the people on YOUR side, are opening your mouth and spouting meaningless nonsense that nobody, especially me, wants to hear.

I asked for CONCRETE EVIDENCE, and all I've gotten so far, and no doubt WILL continue to get is ****. ****. ****. ****.

So please, save your mid life crisis story about your hardships in working at McDonald's to somebody that's willing to give a crap. Such as your psychiatrist, for example.

The low down is this: You either present me something solid, or you just STFU, okay?



*cough* Kane and Lynch *cough*

*cough* BioWare/EA claim *cough*


*cough* We, here at EA lets Eidas get all the glory to reviewers by paying them while we stay here hoping for the best that our games are indeed of high quality and does not need to get paid to get good reviews unlike Eidas who releases a crap game but still get good reviews if not for that **** Jeff /sarcasm *cough*

#88
Lusitanum

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Ixalmaris wrote...

As I have shown, professional reviewers are financially dependant on the publishers. The publishers know this
and use this pressure to force good scores (Kane&Lynch and the Gothic 3 tests in Germany for example).


And user reviewers are often the work whiny people who will abuse whatever little power they have to degrade what they don't like.

Example: all the people who go to Amazon and 1-star things they don't like even if they never bought it or even tried it.

Ixalmaris wrote...User
reviews are more subjective than professional reviews, but the large
number of them means that in the end the rage raviews get drowned out by
honest ones. It is also much harder for publishers anf haters to
manipulate the large number of user reviews.


You mean, like all the people who keep giving 0s and 1s to DA2 on MetaCritic?

I'm
sorry, I understand that you might be upset and not like the game, but
the moment you give a game like this a score that low just because you don't like it, then you're just telling me that the whole user score system is broken and shouldn't be trusted.

epiccrabs wrote...

We're not stating scientific facts here. You fail to undestand what I was implying so I'll have to reexplain it once more.


You're not reexplaining it if you're just now starting to say what the hell you were on about.

epiccrabs wrote...

Things that are generally good are generally praised by people and then joined to a single group or in this case we'll call "Excellent games". Naturally successors of this "excellent games" are supposed to improve not the other way around which happened here in this case. Dragon Age 2 though a good game fails to improve over it's predecessor hence the reason for it's infamity. When making a sequel you're not supposed to make a step back. Which are you supposed to believe? A guy who thinks the game is the bestest ever (professional reviews) or those who actually played the game and think it's a step back. Do note, don't blame this on raids etc...


Sorry, that's not going to float. Do note that I'm not saying wheter or not DA2 is better than Origins, but I've learned not to trust all those that "actually played the game and think it's a step back" because they're on freaking every single game that's not Madden.

Fallout 3, Morrowind, Oblivion, Civilization 4 and 5, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Grand Theft Auto 4... or even games that have just changed over the years like WoW or Team Fortress 2.

Fanboys hate change. And when there's something they hate, they'll make sure the rest of the Internet knows about it. That's why I trust them even less than professional reviewers (and that's saying something).

epiccrabs wrote...

Please do remember that ONLY Dragon Age 2 in the long list of bioware games received this much negativity.


Again, if you don't know what you're talking about, just shut up. Mass Effect 2 was also flooded with "Bioware sold out" threads left and right and last I heard it was one of the most beloved titles of 2010 by both professional reviewers and gamers in general.

Not to mention that you haven't seen a bad Bioware game until you've played Sonic Chronicles.

epiccrabs wrote...This is a sign that the game is indeed crap because of its popularity decided by the masses not the reviewers.


No it isn't. The masses never were a way to judge the quality of anything and they're not going to start now. Especially not the angry side of the masses, who is a lot more active on forums than those that are content.

epiccrabs wrote...A chair is called a chair because a lot of people call it a chair, a single so called "professional" won't change its name.


And again... that's got nothing to do with what's being discussed here. That's a definition, not a testament to the chair's quality.

Modifié par Lusitanum, 12 mars 2011 - 12:32 .


#89
Ixalmaris

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Lusitanum wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

As I have shown, professional reviewers are financially dependant on the publishers. The publishers know this
and use this pressure to force good scores (Kane&Lynch and the Gothic 3 tests in Germany for example).


And user reviewers are often the work whiny people who will abuse whatever little power they have to degrade what they don't like.

Example: all the people who go to Amazon and 1-star things they don't like even if they never bought it or even tried it.


What is more informative, people who give a bad game a worse score than it possibly deserves or people who give good reviews to games because they have no other choice no matter how the game is?

With user reviews you at least see the tendencies if the game is good or bad.

#90
Tokalla

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Lusitanum wrote...

So being right is a democracy now? Popularity is a way to judge quality? Do I even need to say what's wrong with that idea?


All reviews come down to popularity. The only difference to user scores is that you limit the number of voices you listen to.


I hope you realize how incomprehensible that logic actually is, since user reviews are the voiced opinions of anyone (including game publishers, reviewers, fans, etc).  By restricting your perspective to user views you increase the number of "voices", not restrict them.

#91
Ixalmaris

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Tokalla wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Lusitanum wrote...

So being right is a democracy now? Popularity is a way to judge quality? Do I even need to say what's wrong with that idea?


All reviews come down to popularity. The only difference to user scores is that you limit the number of voices you listen to.


I hope you realize how incomprehensible that logic actually is, since user reviews are the voiced opinions of anyone (including game publishers, reviewers, fans, etc).  By restricting your perspective to user views you increase the number of "voices", not restrict them.


My logic > your reading skills.

#92
Tokalla

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Tokalla wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

All reviews come down to popularity. The only difference to user scores is that you limit the number of voices you listen to.


I hope you realize how incomprehensible that logic actually is, since user reviews are the voiced opinions of anyone (including game publishers, reviewers, fans, etc).  By restricting your perspective to user views you increase the number of "voices", not restrict them.


My logic > your reading skills.


You stated that user reviews limit the number of voices.  Either your typing or logic are sadly lacking, since everyone (user reviews) > only publishers/journalists with an agenda.  Perhaps you have failed to realize that professional companies are just as capable (and have been known to) pay individuals to falsely spike user review scores?  Maybe you were attempting to say that people making use of user reviews must take caution to limit the voices they trust (which is definitely not what your sentence actually states)?  Though you could simply be seeking
to antagonize others into debate over virtually anything merely for personal amusement, but no one would ever do something like that on an internet forum...

Modifié par Tokalla, 12 mars 2011 - 02:01 .


#93
Ixalmaris

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Tokalla wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Tokalla wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

All reviews come down to popularity. The only difference to user scores is that you limit the number of voices you listen to.


I hope you realize how incomprehensible that logic actually is, since user reviews are the voiced opinions of anyone (including game publishers, reviewers, fans, etc).  By restricting your perspective to user views you increase the number of "voices", not restrict them.


My logic > your reading skills.


You stated that user reviews limit the number of voices.  Either your typing or logic are sadly lacking, since everyone (user reviews) > only publishers/journalists with an agenda.  Perhaps you have failed to realize that professional companies are just as capable (and have been known to) pay individuals to falsely spike user review scores?  Maybe you were attempting to say that people making use of user reviews must take caustion to limit the voices they trust (which is definitely not what your sentence actually states)?  Though you could simply be seeking to antagonize others into debate over virtually anything merely for personal amusement, but no one would ever do something like that on an internet forum...




No, I sated that reviews, compared to user score just limit the number of voices you listen to.

#94
Tokalla

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Ixalmaris wrote...

No, I sated that reviews, compared to user score just limit the number of voices you listen to.


No, that is not what you actually stated.

Ixalmaris wrote...

The only difference to user scores is that you limit the number of
voices you listen to.


I am not trying to be rude, but this sentence doesn't break down to your intended meaning.  Let me use an example, if comparing golf and baseball (this example is intentionally ridiculous), I would say:

The only difference to golf is that you use a club.

The term "difference" can imply "from baseball".  Had you used "from" rather than "to", things would be much clearer.  Though I would still advise actually using both parts of the comparison for better clarity (mentioning both reviews and user score).

Modifié par Tokalla, 12 mars 2011 - 01:59 .


#95
KenKenpachi

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Saphara wrote...

And the problem with users reviews are they are just as subjective and dependant on that person's taste.

Really unless something is pretty much universally panned (FF14) I'm probably going to ignore it. Same with the excessive positive reviews.


And the subjective opinion of thousands of customers is a good indication of the quality of the game. Thats how polls work (yes, including scientific ones) and democracies work by asking all people to state their opinion instead of relying on a few "professional electors".



Oh thats soo true, because Metacrtic says all halo games suck, which isn't true, not too mention all of the other WAAAA THIS NOT PC titles ussers on there have crushed. The best judge is you.

Its like Overlord 2, it has average scores or even bad ones, and yet I love playing that game.

#96
Lusitanum

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Ixalmaris wrote...

What is more informative, people who give a bad game a worse score than it possibly deserves or people who give good reviews to games because they have no other choice no matter how the game is?


Neither. Both aren't trustworthy.

The difference being that at with professional reviews, you can analyse their reviewing method and draw you conclusions as to whose opinion is worth taking into consideration and who isn't. I don't trust IGN, Gamespot, Gametrailers, PC Gamer (94% for DA2? Seriously?) among others. But I do trust GameRevolution. Granted, I don't always agree with what they say, but at least when they say something is good or bad, I know that they're being honest. So I take that into consideration and add their opinion to the pile of other trustworthy sources that I know.

Try doing that with user reviews.

Ixalmaris wrote...With user reviews you at least see the tendencies if the game is good or bad.


No, you don't. Most of the time you just see if a game is having a harsh reception.

Just look at the user review score for DA2. 3.9 on average? I'm sorry, I can understand people not liking the game but this is not a game worthy of all these 0s and 1s that are deseperately trying to drag the game's score down. Especially when these scores have reviews that start with things like "So far it's been terrible."

"So far"? You gave the game a 0 without even playing it to the end? And these are the guys I should trust? Say what you will about the bribed professionals, at least they had the decency of counter-balancing their reviews with a few negatives on their shinning reviews?

KenKenpachi wrote...

Oh thats soo true, because Metacrtic
says all halo games suck, which isn't true, not too mention all of the
other WAAAA THIS NOT PC titles ussers on there have crushed. The best
judge is you.

Its like Overlord 2, it has average scores or even bad ones, and yet I love playing that game.


Or me with Saboteur. I love that game :wub:. It's got everything that makes me tick and so it becomes really easy for me to overlook its shortcomings.

But I wouldn't write a review on the Internet recommending it to anyone. Because I know that I'm biased and I'd end up embelishing that game more than it deserves. But the problem is that people like me are rare, as was evidenced by all the idiots on the Metacritic user reviews for DA2.

#97
schnitzeljaeger

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You take the reviews with 10s and 0/1s and combine them to a mediocre game (for the majority at least). Easy as that :-)

#98
Lusitanum

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schnitzeljaeger wrote...

You take the reviews with 10s and 0/1s and combine them to a mediocre game (for the majority at least). Easy as that :-)


Ever heard of "two wrongs don't make a right"?

(and if you answer, "but three lefts do!" I'm going to have to kill you in your sleep)

#99
KenKenpachi

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Actully seeing this whole WAA REVIEWERS CHEAT AS THEY ARE PAID!!! That is not true in all of them. Nintendo Power and OXM are always pretty honest and will say if a game on there system is crap. OXM is praticularly harsh on this score. But both run ads from other parties in the magazine to gather money in, as well as user subscriptions. On the other hand I find GameInformer is highly biased and sides with the money, yet they have no ads that arn't gaming related for the most part, just advertisements.