83 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Nimander wrote...

People are making excuses for her.

Even before she got the idol, she was killing or forcing mages to become Tranquil. She was not and never was a 'good guy'. She may have had reasons, but she was a knight templar (heh), and not a good guy.

Before the Idol, she was directly opposed to the Tranquil Solution.

[Dean_the_Young]

Overall, my thoughts on Meredith can be summed up as 'disappointing'.

Not enough exploration or involvement before she went mad from the Idol, when from what little we get she was a firm but not irrational or genocidal actor, nor much actual involvement after she had the Idol until the very end of Act 3.

As it was, she was purely second-hand characterized until Act 3, when she was already crazy, and even that didn't do much.


In the arrogance to suggest how things should have changed, Act 1 should have characterized her pre-insanity, if only from a distance (holding the rogue Templars pushing the Tranquil Solution accountable, for example), Act 2 (when Hawke is a person of note) might have marked the turning point (especially with marking when Meredith gets the idol-sword, but with some scenes before/after that point), and then Act 3 as it was might have stood well.

[88mphSlayer]

i feel the same about Orsino as i do about Meredith, both lacked enough character exploration - they had obvious personalities but not the kind of depth you expect when a game is trying to say 2 villians are starting a civil war over gray-area stuff

an act 4 where one or the other survives would've helped, if Bioware were worried about having to do 2 major endings for a sequel to build off of just have one or the other betray you anyways - just at a later date with better reasons

and obviously i'm pro-Meredith, screw Orsino man

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 04 mai 2011 - 01:08 .

[Funny_chan]

cglasgow wrote...

It's important to remember that there are two Merediths; the hardass knight templar we hear about when we arrive in Kirkwall, and the one who gradually goes more and more insane due to the lyrium idol.

The first one we probably could have dealt with, even if she was still a hardliner, because she was actually right; the First Enchanter was actually a blood mage and harboring same. Hell, he was in friendly correspondence with Quentin, the mad 'researcher' who killed Mama Hawke!

The one from act 2 onwards, especially in act 3, otoh, is as crazy as Bartrand and if she hadn't been stopped, she'd have been 'protecting' a city full of dead bodies, because she'd eventually have purged everyone.

And that's the tragedy.

I tottaly agree with you.
If I had to choose which one is more "evil", Meredith or Orsino, I'd say that Orsino is the worst one.
Meredith was actually reasonable before the Lyrium Idol's influence. She didn't approve Alric's plan. Orsino, however, deliberately chose to help Quentin and intended to openly search about the flesh golems, amongst other things.
Bioware tried to do with Meredith and Orsino the same thing it did with Loghain and the Architect before: create ambiguous antagonist(s).

BTW, it's kinda off-topic, but I love both Meredith's and Orsino's desgins.

Modifié par Funny_chan, 04 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Beerfish]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

She was poorly developed, and by the time she starts to develop, things have gone to a boil and she's fit the mold of Satuday Morning Cartoon Villain.

I wouldn't go quite this far but it is pretty close.  They needed to develop both Meredith and Orisino better with snippets during the game so the player could sympathize with them a little more and not see each as just nutso. 

In some of my play throughs I totally agree with her stance and her solution  (well up until the point where cullen wants to arrest me and she wants to kill me,)

[brigantine]

cglasgow wrote...

It's important to remember that there are two Merediths; the hardass knight templar we hear about when we arrive in Kirkwall, and the one who gradually goes more and more insane due to the lyrium idol.

The first one we probably could have dealt with, even if she was still a hardliner, because she was actually right; the First Enchanter was actually a blood mage and harboring same. Hell, he was in friendly correspondence with Quentin, the mad 'researcher' who killed Mama Hawke!

The one from act 2 onwards, especially in act 3, otoh, is as crazy as Bartrand and if she hadn't been stopped, she'd have been 'protecting' a city full of dead bodies, because she'd eventually have purged everyone.

And that's the tragedy.

This is the best description I've seen of her! She was an interesting character that I really would like to have seen more of her desent into madness.

[DownyTif]

I think Meredith is a strong and well developped character. She is believable and that's important. Until you meet her, she feels very powerful and impossible to meet.

But the moment she becomes a Dark Jedi and fly fast on the battlefield with her red lightsaber and glowing eyes, super jump and animate statues, everything that her character was is reduced to ashes by the same storytellers that built her. I so hate that part.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I like Meredith, my current Hawke has been more agreeable with her and I'm liking seeing this other side of her. Getting a letter from her saying "warm regards" made me swoon. I think Meredith genuinely wants to help the people of Kirkwall and she does seem to feel bad for the mages.

[Vic George 2011]

It's hard for me to take Meredith seriously when she looks like she'll kick your butt for calling her "Little Red Riding Hood with a sword".

[EmperorSahlertz]

I can't actually recall a bad decission she made before the idol addled her mind.

[Sussurus]

Missed oportunity is my thought tbh.
Going beyond the whole idol thing, too little was done with her.
To little said, too few interactions, very little flesh to her beyond bad guy.
Then she goes Lyrium, and what is established goes Lyrium as well.

A human, driven beyond compromise shown throughout and kept focused could have made her an icon of role playing games.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not sure why some see Orsino as more evil than the Knight-Commander who installs herself as a dictator over the city and orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Gallows for a crime Anders committed, especially given how she basically handwaves his existence afterwards. What Orsino did in keeping Quentin's identity a secret was repellant, but hardly more than Meredith annulling the entire Circle of Kirkwall.

[soulrapist]

I say it is the mage responsability to say no to blood magic and demons offer and blaming others because they fall for it well i say have at least the balls to die with honor insteads of saying im too afraid to die pls demon and blood magic come rescue me.

[soulrapist]

i even give feinriel to torpor simply because the boy dont even get the point that he is in the fade and dont see the demons there he dont even deserve to live dead is the only reward he should have i prefer see him suffer in the hand of a demon and be greedy like the rest of kirkwall. if only the demon would destroy the circle right there it will show how loser mage are.

[EmperorSahlertz]

soulrapist wrote...

i even give feinriel to torpor simply because the boy dont even get the point that he is in the fade and dont see the demons there he dont even deserve to live dead is the only reward he should have i prefer see him suffer in the hand of a demon and be greedy like the rest of kirkwall. if only the demon would destroy the circle right there it will show how loser mage are.

You would give the most powerful mage in existance to a demon, just to prove a point? I'm no mage lover, but that seems rather cold. You realize the amount of destruction the Abomination could/would wreak on the world?

[soulrapist]

from when is it right to do terrorist act or fall pray to demon in the name of freedom????

[soulrapist]

believe me i have more respect for qunari then those bastard in kirkwall the arishock he's right when he say that this city is corrupted .

[soulrapist]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

soulrapist wrote...

i even give feinriel to torpor simply because the boy dont even get the point that he is in the fade and dont see the demons there he dont even deserve to live dead is the only reward he should have i prefer see him suffer in the hand of a demon and be greedy like the rest of kirkwall. if only the demon would destroy the circle right there it will show how loser mage are.

You would give the most powerful mage in existance to a demon, just to prove a point? I'm no mage lover, but that seems rather cold. You realize the amount of destruction the Abomination could/would wreak on the world?

you are right u made a good point but sometimes i even stabilize the boy to give him the death he deserved.

[LobselVith8]

soulrapist wrote...

I say it is the mage responsability to say no to blood magic and demons offer and blaming others because they fall for it well i say have at least the balls to die with honor insteads of saying im too afraid to die pls demon and blood magic come rescue me.

Not every mage turns into an abomination - we see plenty of mages getting cut down by templars without turning to dealing with demons (which includes Bethany if Meredith stabs her in the back), and we know that in Kirkwall that abominations can even be summoned by the possessed, as "Enemies Among Us" showed (which is possibly a result of the "Band of Three").

[spoe71]

Merideth....she sure made a grand entrance. I love the scene in which we first meet her.

[soulrapist]

LobselVith8 wrote...

soulrapist wrote...

I say it is the mage responsability to say no to blood magic and demons offer and blaming others because they fall for it well i say have at least the balls to die with honor insteads of saying im too afraid to die pls demon and blood magic come rescue me.

Not every mage turns into an abomination - we see plenty of mages getting cut down by templars without turning to dealing with demons (which includes Bethany if Meredith stabs her in the back), and we know that in Kirkwall that abominations can even be summoned by the possessed, as "Enemies Among Us" showed (which is possibly a result of the "Band of Three").

the way i see it is that mage should show how strong they are supposed to be and responsable they should be by teaching what self-respect is and how to die with your pride and honor uncorrupted that is what the circle should teach but they dont show anything else then selfpity and pathetic excuse to give in to demon offer in the name of freedom even meridith familly was murder by her own sister why simply because of that self-respect im talking about.  even the templar should help mage reach that self-respect and work with them to kill any goddamm mage who dare use blood magic why? simply because the act of taking the life of someone to replenish yours is right there an act of dishonor and disrespect of one-self that single act show how selfish a mage can be and why i say kill every blood mage on sight they do not deserved a trial a plain and simple execution that goes for merill and anders who both chooses to give in weekness and say its for the good of my people or a willing host for a spirit is better!! if i had the luxury to kill both or the choice to kill them i would without hesitation right there. there pathetic excuse do not find me at all.

[GavrielKay]

soulrapist wrote...

the way i see it is that mage should show how strong they are supposed to be and responsable they should be by teaching what self-respect is and how to die with your pride and honor uncorrupted that is what the circle should teach but they dont show anything else then selfpity and pathetic excuse to give in to demon offer in the name of freedom

You seriously expect mages to learn self respect in this environment?  If someone suddenly decided your Hawke was a danger to society would you kneel and offer your neck? 

Freedom is one of the most powerful motivators around, for anyone. 

Avoiding rape and torture isn't a "pathetic excuse."  That sounds incredibly heartless.

[soulrapist]

GavrielKay wrote...

soulrapist wrote...

the way i see it is that mage should show how strong they are supposed to be and responsable they should be by teaching what self-respect is and how to die with your pride and honor uncorrupted that is what the circle should teach but they dont show anything else then selfpity and pathetic excuse to give in to demon offer in the name of freedom

You seriously expect mages to learn self respect in this environment?  If someone suddenly decided your Hawke was a danger to society would you kneel and offer your neck? 

Freedom is one of the most powerful motivators around, for anyone. 

Avoiding rape and torture isn't a "pathetic excuse."  That sounds incredibly heartless.

yes i would offer my neck if the choices were available i even give the town to the qunari since that city is behond redemtion. all i have seen in this city is corruption even merill make a perfect example by choosing blood magic while she is free in the dalish this is why i say that the best option is still self respect and take an honorable death at least you choose how you die .

[soulrapist]

If it was not for that idol meridith would do a good job but even then she is stuck with a grand cleric who say the maker will step in when its time. OMG! what the heck is that your in a world where magic is not a choice but your stuck with it the best thing you can do is teach self respect, honor and also do not talk with demon kill it dont even talk to it or die trying to kill the demon that is what is supposed to be teach lame excuse to do otherwise do not find me at all.