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[LobselVith8]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

There's two references.  If Karras isn't killed in Act I, then there's a dialogue with Alain in Act II about how Karras "comes to his room at night" and threatens to make him tranquil if he talks (but apparently he can talk to Hawke? I donno).  Second, if you take the diplomatic dialogue option with him Best Served Cold he says he joined the rebellion because of what the templars 'make him do,' with a rather distant tone as he stares at the ground.
[/quote]

I don't play a diplomatic character so I missed the both references. That's still him being abused by Karras not every single templar in the order. [/quote]

No one said "every templar" was abusing Alain - no one is making such an accusation. It's being addressed that he's being abused by some templars, even if Ser Kerras is killed.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

He's an EXCELLENT example.  Here's a kid who wanted nothing to do with blood magic but eventually resorts to it because after the better part of the decade he's sick of being abused on multiple fronts.  Last I checked, "I'm sick of being raped" was a pretty damn good excuse.  The templars are DIRECTLY responsible for this kid turning bad. [/quote]

You want a better example? Try Ella. [/quote]

I mentioned Ella. Didn't you read what I wrote?

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Every single templar that didn't desert after Meredith called for the RoA deserves death.  Every last one. [/quote]

Same could be said of every Starkhaven mage who didn't desert Decimus when he started raising the dead. Or of every Circle mage who didn't surrender when their fellows started using blood magic or summoning demons.

I, however, actually spared those who did surrender, as well as every survivor in Thrask's group of rebels. [/quote]

The difference is the Starkhaven mages with Decimus (like Terrie) were afraid of him, while the templars have the power to decide whether or not they are going to murder countless men, women, and children for an act that they did not do - i.e. the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Proof by lack of evidence is not proof. [/quote]

There is no proof that they never were in the Circle either. [/quote]

In other words, we lack any viable information to determine what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Kirkwall Circle are like because of our lack of knowledge, and our limited exposure to the select mages of the Circle we do encounter?

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Only a few sentences ago you were ****ing about people painting all the templars bad because of the few Hawke encounters, now you're doing the same thing to the mages.  Does the word "hypocrisy" mean anything to you?
[/quote]

Language son. I'm fine about arguing with you, but we'll either do it in a civilized fashion or not at all. 

I'm never said that all Circle mages or mages in general were corrupt or deserving of death. I pointed out that there are plenty of those who are, as evidenced by blood mages and abominations all around Kirkwall. [/quote]

Kirkwall is the centeral base of power for the templars control over eastern Thedas - it's not surprising it's attracted mages who want to see the dictatorship deposed.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Awesome, now you're judging the Grey Warden mages by ONE of them.  Tell me again how we're bad for judging the entire templar order.  Just for the lulz, go ahead. [/quote]

Wardens are responsible to stop Avernus from summoning demons or using people as lab rats in his experiments. They failed to do it. While that doesn't make all Warden mages criminals, it does make Sophia Dryden responsible, since she was the commander who allowed for it to happen. [/quote]

Wardens aren't responsible to prohibit a means that could mean victory - as Alistair points out, the Wardens do whatever is necessary, and that means some extreme things.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

In the same way, Merredith and Cullen are responsible for what Karras, Alrik or Mettin did to mages, even if they took no active part in their atrocities. That doesn't mean every templar should be executed for the actions of a few.

And Orsino is guilty of allowing blood mages to take hold in the Gallows and for covering and aiding Quentin's sick research. That doesn't mean that every mage in the Circle needs to pay for it. [/quote]

If the templars are going to commit genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children simply for being mages so Meredith can appease the mob, then Hawke has every right to stop them by lethal force.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

And as long as the mage police are a bunch of religious nuts who don't even answer to the king himself, they aren't any better.[/quote]

That they are a religious force makes no difference. Secular forces could easily commit those same atrocities against mages. 

The fact that they're not held accountable for their transgressions is the issue, not the fact that such a policing force exists. [/quote]

The difference is that the Chantry is using religion to establish dictatorships over mages across the continent and using the name of their god to do so.

[Beerfish]

"I see no reason to force all mages to live under a dictatorship that treats them all as "cursed" instead of letting giving them the same freedoms as everyone else. The Chantry controlled Circles are system that has lead to a continential revolt because of the abuses that took place, and it's gotten Thedas to the brink of war."

Connor.

I continually see arguments based on freedom of mages but through all of these tons of mage, templar, chantry threads I haven't seen a decent proposal as to how giving mages freedoms that every one else has will work in the grand scheme of things.  Forget mages for just one post, forget the Chantry and the Templars for just one post and make a post that addresses joe average citizen, town guard, villager.

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Decimus, as bad as he was, wasn't trying to commit genocide.  Fighting for your freedom is a far cry from wholesale slaughter of a minority right down to defenseless children.

Alain said Decimus probably started the fire in Starkhaven Circle. Also, being a blood mage doesn't score you any points, especially after you turn your skeletons against random people. 

I have sympathy for Alain, Terrie and other mages from Starkhaven, but none whatsoever for Decimus or Grace.

I have no sympathy for Decimus or Grace, either, but considering that the templars can nullify ordinary magic, I can see why some mages would resort to it as a means to protect themselves against the Order can kill them otherwise. It may not be good for their image, but I doubt their corpses will care too much about PR otherwise.

Master Shiori wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Almost all the mages Hawke encounters in Kirkwall are rebels to some degree.  The mages that are law-abiding are in the Gallows, not trying to find a way to escape.  You're judging the mages of Kirkwall by the apostates of Kirkwall.  Even that's sketchy, really.  Hawke encounters more dragons than farmers, more gang members than.. well, any other profession really.

Oh, I'm fine with them being rebels. Hawke himself can be called a rebel for not being part of the Circle, yet he doesn't abuse his power or brings harm to others. Heck, Hawke's father escaped from the Circle and he was hardly a dangerous criminal.

Malcolm met Leandra because he was working as a mercenary and came to Kirkwall, not because he was a member of the Circle of Kirkwall.

Master Shiori wrote...

My poblem is that mages routinely flee the Circle as Anders and Thrask tell you. Some, like Ella, try to live normal lives. Others resort to blood magic or traffic with demons out of desire for power or revenge. 

Which explains Anders, who was asked to kill his first love Karl when he was illegally made tranquil, and then became part of the mage underground, ultimately leading to the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry as Meredith become more and more powerful with Elthina's inaction.

Master Shiori wrote...

Huon escapes the Circle and then kills his own wife to power his magic. Evelina escapes and becomes possessed. Quentin conducts mad research and the First Enchanter not only hides that but also aids him by giving him books on forbidden lore. Decimus and Grace resort to blood magic without a second thought. There's an entire gang roaming Hightown that is led by blood mages.

Huon was sane before he was sent to the Gallows, Evelina was originally from the Circle of Ferelden and she didn't become an abomination until after she was imprisoned in the Gallows, Quentin was insane, and Orsino made incredibly stupid decisions. We have Decimus, who apparently lost his mind, and Grace, who became an abomination because of what happened to Decimus. And we know the Resolutionists are a presence in the city-state because of "Faith."

Master Shiori wrote...

Sure, it's an unusual circumstance made so for the purpose of getting the message that mages are dangerous across, yet the same is true of templars in Kirkwall who commit every abuse imaginable. 

To me that doesn't help the case for making all mages free. Some of them? Sure. But not all.

It shows that the Chantry controlled Circles have failed when they lead to rampant abuses and result in a continential revolt made by all the Circles of Magi against the dictatorship controlling them.

Master Shiori wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Not much of a history buff I take it?  Secular forces could indeed have committed the same crimes, but a religious organization with a vast military never ends well.  The fact that the Chantry's armed forces are named after the religious warriors responsible for the crusades isn't exactly a subtle hint that maybe this setup is a bad idea.

It's also a bad idea to use real world events and organization as comparrison for fantasy ones, because despite similarities they're never the same nor can you predict what the fantasy version will do.
For one, there is no organised source of lore in Thedas outside the Chantry's own historians, and those portray events as seen from their perspective. That hardly makes their views unbiased.
Same can be said of Dalish history as told by their storytellers or of Tevinter historical accounts.

Therefore, your use of Exalted Marches against the Elves (at least that's the one I'm assuming you meant, rather than Andraste's March against Tevinter or Chantry Marches against Qunari) isn't going to help much since there are only versions of it as told by those who were involved. Again hardly an unbiased source of information.
I will say that the general treatment of Elves in human society is bad. 

There's no need to look back on the Exalted March of the Dlaes when we can look toward the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, which was supported by the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I see no reason to force all mages to live under a dictatorship that treats them all as "cursed" instead of letting giving them the same freedoms as everyone else. The Chantry controlled Circles are system that has lead to a continential revolt because of the abuses that took place, and it's gotten Thedas to the brink of war.

Connor.

You mean the boy who become possessed when his pious, Andrastian mother didn't want her son to be a mage, and hired Jowan to teach her son because of this? Because we know that there are free mages among the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain, so I still don't see why it's necessary to force the mages into subjugation at the hands of a religious organization that preaches how mages are both cursed and responsible for the Blights, and this leads to intolerance towards the mages.

Beerfish wrote...

I continually see arguments based on freedom of mages but through all of these tons of mage, templar, chantry threads I haven't seen a decent proposal as to how giving mages freedoms that every one else has will work in the grand scheme of things.  Forget mages for just one post, forget the Chantry and the Templars for just one post and make a post that addresses joe average citizen, town guard, villager.

The Chantry controlled Circles have lead to the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, and the templars have left the Chantry to hunt the mages. The dictatorship of the mages has put the continent on the brink of war.

[HogarthHughes 3]

The situation with Connor was a rarity. If mages being free meant extremely powerful abominations would be loose all over the land causing havoc like the desire demon did within him, how did the Tevinter Imperium have an empire spanning Thedas? Or the elves of Arlathan? How is it that Rivain hasn't been reduced to a pile of rubble and demons what with the seers there not being constantly watched? So long as the society is not extremely restrictive like under the Qun, where everyone has very limited freedoms, apostates will always exist. There will always be the chance of a nasty abomination getting free and killing indiscriminately. It seems to me that by putting greater restrictions on the mages, all the Chantry does is create what they're trying to prevent/destroy.

Just be honest, mages are locked up because they have more power than normal men, and they can gain even more power by working with homicidal monsters and/or sacrificing innocents.  The Imperium gave the Chantry, as well as the common man, plenty of reasons to be biased against and fearful of magic.  That said, mages being free does not mean that it will automatically devolve into a society where the strong must prey on the weak.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 06 mai 2011 - 09:14 .

[Sammy0721]

The problem with Meredith is there is no backstory ... which would make for a great DLC. In my mini-back story ... Meredith father was a holy noble killed by (a bard from Orlais, ie. Marjolaine) ..her mother died at childbirth... so she was sent to the chantry ... and eventually finds a calling with her sword. One of the most charming and powerful senior enchanters Edwin had two apprentices Quentin and Orsino. Unfortunately, for Meredith she starts an affair with Edwin who is also a powerful blood mage. The templars start a holy war with the blood mages which leads to death of Quentin's wife and the capture of the Meredith's mentor Knight Captain Liam. At the same time the most important counselor for Threnhold is the Blood Mage E, who convinces Threnhold that he can use magic to make Kirkwall into an empire like the next Tevinter Empire without the limits of the meddlesome templars. While Knight-Commander Guylian starts arresting and interrogating nobles an elite group of templars (Meredith, Karras and Emeric) and one very reluctant healer Mharen try to rescue to Knight Captain. There is a lot of carnage ... E kills Knight Captain Liam who sacrifices himself to save Meredith, and Emeric plunges his sword into E ... or Senior Enchanter Edwin. Tensions mount with the Templars and the Viscount while Guylian continues his reach for more power. Evidence surfaces of a Templar plot to overthrow Threnhold which leads events that start Dragon Age 2.
I think it would be interesting to see Emeric in his glory days, the backstory with Quentin (Emeric and Mharen), and have Meredith "betrayal by a blood mage" making her a tragic antagonist and sympathetic to the death of Leandra.

[The dead fish]

Meredith did not have time to have a personality, to have a character. She is already presented as nasty, extreme and insane from the start. Black, black, black.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 mai 2011 - 10:49 .

[Rifneno]

Master Shiori wrote...

Alain said Decimus probably started the fire in Starkhaven Circle. Also, being a blood mage doesn't score you any points, especially after you turn your skeletons against random people.

And Sebastian said whoever killed his family probably burned it down to get rid of their two biggest traditional allies (templars and mages).  Your point?

Language.

Do you really think your pathetic attempt at indignation over a phrase 10 year olds say in front of their mothers is doing well to cover the fact you failed to provide the burden of proof which rests on you?  It's not.

Then don't act in a manner that is deserving of such a term. You'll notice that I don't resort to swearing in order to get my point across.

If you don't want to hear terrible phrases like "screw it" perhaps you should present your case without the self-righteous hypocrisy.

Oh, I'm fine with them being rebels. Hawke himself can be called a rebel for not being part of the Circle, yet he doesn't abuse his power or brings harm to others. Heck, Hawke's father escaped from the Circle and he was hardly a dangerous criminal.

And that has exactly what to do with the fact you're judging the mages of Kirkwall by a band of renegades?

My poblem is that mages routinely flee the Circle as Anders and Thrask tell you. Some, like Ella, try to live normal lives. Others resort to blood magic or traffic with demons out of desire for power or revenge. 
Huon escapes the Circle and then kills his own wife to power his magic. Evelina escapes and becomes possessed. Quentin conducts mad research and the First Enchanter not only hides that but also aids him by giving him books on forbidden lore. Decimus and Grace resort to blood magic without a second thought. There's an entire gang roaming Hightown that is led by blood mages.

Congratulations, you've proven the point that many criminals are bad people.  When do we get to how this makes it okay to judge the law-abiding majority whom we never meet, even to the point of ordering them all executed?

It's also a bad idea to use real world events and organization as comparrison for fantasy ones, because despite similarities they're never the same nor can you predict what the fantasy version will do.
For one, there is no organised source of lore in Thedas outside the Chantry's own historians, and those portray events as seen from their perspective. That hardly makes their views unbiased.
Same can be said of Dalish history as told by their storytellers or of Tevinter historical accounts.

Therefore, your use of Exalted Marches against the Elves (at least that's the one I'm assuming you meant, rather than Andraste's March against Tevinter or Chantry Marches against Qunari) isn't going to help much since there are only versions of it as told by those who were involved. Again hardly an unbiased source of information.
I will say that the general treatment of Elves in human society is bad. 

I don't remember commenting on any particular exalted march.  I could certainly use those as an example, but for the moment I'm simply speaking of the mage oppression.  BTW, there were two exalted marches against Tevinter.  One was just of course, the other was against Tevinter's own Chantry because the black divine celebrated the death of a white divine.  One religious nut celebrating enough religious nut's death was apparently reasonable cause for a war that would cost thousands of lives by the "good guys"' definition.  Anyway, I don't need to predict what the fantasy version will do.  They're already doing it.  I'm just stating the parallel.

[soulrapist]

master shiori have given good and valid points and all see is 2 person trying to discredit those point using the same twisted arguments that anders do (ex. using self-preservation has excuse somehow, all i see in self-preservation is weakness and the inability to evolve and for me it also means how low a person is by not putting value like honesty,respect and dignity above it all.) this is why i stop answering to those post since i had to deal with primitive monkey instead of human.