285 réponses à ce sujet

[Grovermancer]

DA2 arrived today from Amazon.  Was completely giddy.  Ready to be swept away like I was from DA, one of my favorite games of all time.
Been playing DA1 for less than an hour.  Had to quit, just to post this. 
So far, I can't stand it, almost entirely because of the combat. (I find the interface and status screens inferior as well, but that's another issue)

DAO had visceral, gritty, real combat moves and animations and skills and abilities.  Fit perfectly with the atmosphere and world, and gave the game such gravity, and validity.  (except for 2-H, where swing speed was too slow and lumbering and should have slowly increase scaled as STR increased)  Basically, the combat was perfect and made every other aspect of the game that much better.

But DA2's unrealistically twitchy, fast, shallow crap looks, feels, and sounds like a damn console 3rd person action knockoff.  WTF.  It's literally hard to even see what the hell I'm doing.   It looks like every garbage console action game I've ever seen; leaping, swooshing, blah blah blah.  Where's that Lars Kracken goober from God of War?  (whatever his name is)

Anyhow, maybe start packaging some ritalin with your games from now on, BW.


Ironically, the only one of my friends who I was never able to convince to buy DAO finally broke down and emailed me today and asked about DA2.  Told him I hadn't gotten it yet, so couldn't vouch for it, but that DAO Ultimate Edition was only $40 on Amazon.  Even though only an hour in, I can say I seriously doubt I'll be recommending DA2.


REQUEST TO MODDERS:   Can someone do something about this combat?  Maybe slow it down a lot, add some realistic moves that look like they come from an actual human being?


------------------------------------


TL;DR  --  Some folks on these boards aren't getting it.

This isn't "opinion."  These are facts:

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

EDIT:  the facts listed above are true to both RL and the DA universe (since the DA universe melee combat was made to look believable in a RL type setting)

All the crap listed above, is what happens in 3rd-person action console games.  Twitch-based, button-mashing, hack n' slash crap.  Shiny, flashy garbage.  The stuff a monkey can play.

None of the stuff listed above was the norm for DAO's combat.

DAO's world and atmosphere was gritty, dire, and real.  So was the combat.  The combat fit the world.  Backed up the atmosphere.  It looked and felt effortful.  It had gravity.  Even stylized moves still hearkened to an actual, real combat.

DA2's combat hearkens to console games.

Add platform jumping, and Dragon Age 3 will be Bioware's God of Castlevania's Dante's Inferno War.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 18 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[Shatterkiss]

They don't plan to release a toolset, so modders won't be able to do much to fix the game.

[OSUfan12121]

Maybe because some people actually like the combat now? I hated combat with a passion in DA:O it was by far the worst part of the game and it wasnt realistic at all. Your not gonna swing a sword, wait 15 seconds then swing it again. Now im not saying combat in DA2 is perfect but its a step in the right direction.

[Itkovian]

I loved DAO's combat.

I prefer DA2's. Just as tactical and stat-driver, but faster and more fun. Being a sword and board warrior is certainly a lot more fun, too.

Itkovian

[Grovermancer]

I'll tell you what -- and I'm not kidding -- I literally almost feel depressed right now. 

I know I shouldn't feel that way over a damn game...  But I do.


ugh


I can't hardly even start the game back up.  Had to pop an aspirin  (just realized my head is pounding).

Wow. 

At least it's nice outside.  Maybe go get some fresh air, put this out of my mind.

[orbit991]

Just don't play the jumping monkey rogue, it doesn't feel as bad.

[Grovermancer]

Played a little more.  Used Shield Bash with the female companion, to compare w/ DAO Shield Bash.  Terrible.  Just wrong.


Then I went outside, did a kettlebell workout.
Do you know how you swing or snatch a 55lb kettlebell?  With your feet.  Then your legs.  Through your hips.  That's where all the energy flows.  Out through your arms.

Same with fists, weapons, and shields.   And that's how it (mostly) was for the combat animations in DAO.  But not in DA2.

This is not an opinion.  It's an observable fact.

What I've seen so far, the kinesthetics of DA2 combat are wrong.  They are not accurate.  At all.  Again, this in not an opinion.  It's a fact.  It's true weather someone likes it, or not.

OSUfan12121 wrote...

Maybe because some people actually like the combat now? I hated combat with a passion in DA:O it was by far the worst part of the game and it wasnt realistic at all.

Most of that sentence is just an opinion.  Except the red.

Unfortunately, the red part is  wrong.  The weapon combat animations were almost entirely accurate and realistic and true to real combat and real-body kinesthetics.  You're simply wrong.  Again, this isn't an opinion.  This is verifiable.

Your not gonna swing a sword, wait 15 seconds then swing it again. Now im not saying combat in DA2 is perfect but its a step in the right direction.

That's true.  Fortunately, no one in DAO did that.

Though as I menioned in the OP, the 2-H animation should have gradually increased in speed, scaling w/ increased STR, to a point of diminishing returns.  (this is accurate to power endurance and explosive training -- which is basically what 2-H fighting is -- and is the one place DAO dropped the ball, combat-wise)

Itkovian wrote...

I loved DAO's combat.

I prefer
DA2's. Just as tactical and stat-driver, but faster and more fun. Being a
sword and board warrior is certainly a lot more fun, too.

Itkovian

Well, I can't speak to what is "more fun" for anyone else, but when I play in a world that's supposed to be dire, gritty, and real, I'd like my combat to be real, too.  To have some weight to it.  Not to be flippant, whimsical, and discountable.

After reading your response, I played w/ the Shield Bash w/ the female companion.  It's not realistic in the least, and pales in comparison to the DAO Shield Bash.  (I only did it 2-3 times, so my assessment may not be fully accurate)

In DA2, she doesn't drive from the ground.  There's no hip action.  The energy  doesn't travel out through the shield.  Her weight isn't behind it.   
Instead, she was standing square to the enemy, little to no movement... then only her shield-arm moved (ridiculously fast), smacking through the enemy.

EDIT:  have done a few more Shield Bash's.  Not as static as it first seemed, but still not the proper movement or technique, not by a longshot.  There is some trunk movement into the bash, but it's still not on par w/ DAO's Bash.  And like all combat, it's absurdly too fast.


The same can be said for what I've seen of 2-H so far.

Though the character puts his hips into the strikes, they're way to fast, making the weapon seem literally weightless.   Hell, he often lets go, to do some fancy one-handed follow-through.


Seems like style over substance.


Maybe they'll put platform jumping into DA3?  Or double-jumps?


ps.  since when do Darkspawn have nice, uniform armor?  Didn't the codex on Darkspawn tech in DAO (not to mention every single darkspawn encountered) show ragged, scraped-together armor?

pps.. and why is the 'returned character,' who we see around the same time they were in DAO, suddenly wearing a crown and have 'hair horns' and look 'prettied-up?'


Again, style over substance.  What a shame.  Appealing to the lowest-common denomenator.






EDIT:  wanted to clarify; even if there was a combat animation in DAO that wasn't realistic in a literal sense, they hearkened to realistic combat. 

The animations and combat in DA2 seem inspired by asian-made 3rd person console action games; from the LOTR games, through God of War, Dante's Inferno, etc.  (they're all the same; seen one, you've seen them all, combat-wise -- hack n' slack, twitched-based button mashers)

Modifié par Grovermancer, 12 mars 2011 - 10:28 .

[randallman]

orbit991 wrote...

Just don't play the jumping monkey rogue, it doesn't feel as bad.

I love how when you're going to backstab - you get sucked into an interdimensional rift and then appear behind your intended target...  The sound effects when doing so are awesome too, like you're getting sucked down a tube and then spat back out.  And then the camera goes all wild for a second since there's no 'detached' camera.

Even better, when you backstab and are already behind the target, the same thing happens...

--Randall

[-Zorph-]

Grovermancer wrote...


DA2 arrived today from Amazon.  Was completely giddy.  Ready to be swept away like I was from DA, one of my favorite games of all time.
Been playing DA1 for less than an hour.  Had to quit, just to post this. 
So far, I can't stand it, almost entirely because of the combat. (I find the interface and status screens inferior as well, but that's another issue)

DAO had visceral, gritty, real combat moves and animations and skills and abilities.  Fit perfectly with the atmosphere and world, and gave the game such gravity, and validity.  (except for 2-H, where swing speed was too slow and lumbering and should have slowly increase scaled as STR increased)  Basically, the combat was perfect and made every other aspect of the game that much better.

But DA2's unrealistically twitchy, fast, shallow crap looks, feels, and sounds like a damn console 3rd person action knockoff.  WTF.  It's literally hard to even see what the hell I'm doing.   It looks like every garbage console action game I've ever seen; leaping, swooshing, blah blah blah.  Where's that Lars Kracken goober from God of War?  (whatever his name is)

Anyhow, maybe start packaging some ritalin with your games from now on, BW.


Ironically, the only one of my friends who I was never able to convince to buy DAO finally broke down and emailed me today and asked about DA2.  Told him I hadn't gotten it yet, so couldn't vouch for it, but that DAO Ultimate Edition was only $40 on Amazon.  Even though only an hour in, I can say I seriously doubt I'll be recommending DA2.


REQUEST TO MODDERS:   Can someone do something about this combat?  Maybe slow it down a lot, add some realistic moves that look like they come from an actual human being?

Very interesting... because I found the Dragon Age: Origins combat to be seriously lacking, boring, and a game-breaking element of the game.

Dragon Age 2's combat is not only more FUN (the most important thing), but it looks great, and fits in the world even better in my opinion than DA:O. It's more intense.

[Drogo45]

Hyper dimension Neptunia that way ------->

[randallman]

-Zorph- wrote...

Very interesting... because I found the Dragon Age: Origins combat to be seriously lacking, boring, and a game-breaking element of the game.

Dragon Age 2's combat is not only more FUN (the most important thing), but it looks great, and fits in the world even better in my opinion than DA:O. It's more intense.

And this is where our definitions of fun differ! 

If I want high paced action combat, I'll go fire up Crysis (cant wait for #2, btw), Quake Live, RTCW, or any of myriad other FPS titles.

If I want thoughtful strategic turn-based battle set in a fantasy world, I fire up a RPG like DA:O.

If I want pure strategy, I'll go fire up Civilization IV.

To mix turn-based and twitch click just seems like a genre-busting mistake.

--Randall

[Bowmangr]

I'm a physical therapist. I can assure you that the movements in DA2 are incredibly cheesy, completely unrealistic and even childish. Nothing to do with Kinesiology. I cann't imagine someone over the age of 20-22 to actually like this cheesy combat unless he can suspend disbelief in an admirable way.

The moves in DAO are more closer to reality except the two-handed weapons moves which are bad.

Even if the game is a fantasy game that does not mean that anything goes. There is a small matter called BELIEVABILITY, not realism as some people confuse. DA2 is not realistic neither believable. DAO was not realistic but it was believable {with minor exceptions}.

Modifié par Bowmangr, 13 mars 2011 - 09:24 .

[-Zorph-]

Bowmangr wrote...

I'm a physical therapist. I can assure you that the movements in DA2 are incredibly cheesy, completely unrealistic and even childish. Nothing to do with Kinesiology. I cann't imagine someone over the age of 20-22 to actually like this cheesy combat unless he can suspend disbelief in an admirable way.

The moves in DAO are more closer to reality except the two-handed weapons moves which are bad.

Even if the game is a fantasy game that does not mean that anything goes. There is a small matter called BELIEVABILITY, not realism as some people confuse. DA2 is not realistic neither believable. DAO was not realistic but it was believable {with minor exceptions}.

... While I agree they are somewhat over the time, I think you are exaggerated a big here. The animations are a little too much, like the characters are super people. But this is what makes the combat exciting, fast-paced, and sets you in the fantasy setting. If every fantasy game had aspects identical to reality and that followed all the guide lines of believability it would not be fantasy but instead History.

[randallman]

-Zorph- wrote...

... While I agree they are somewhat over the time, I think you are exaggerated a big here. The animations are a little too much, like the characters are super people. But this is what makes the combat exciting, fast-paced, and sets you in the fantasy setting. If every fantasy game had aspects identical to reality and that followed all the guide lines of believability it would not be fantasy but instead History.

Right, but as you eluded to, there is a line that has been crossed.

--Randall

[PirateT138]

Agreed, the combat is stupid as hell. No one does f'ing gymnastics with sharp objects, nor do they have 40inch vertical jumps with a 5 foot 2hander. I always thought some of the charm of DA was that it was relatively grounded (if you accepted that magic was a part of life in Thedas), it wasn't the silly, over-the-top action that DA2 has.

DA2 isn't that bad, but it barely resembles Origins in combat.

[-Zorph-]

randallman wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

... While I agree they are somewhat over the time, I think you are exaggerated a big here. The animations are a little too much, like the characters are super people. But this is what makes the combat exciting, fast-paced, and sets you in the fantasy setting. If every fantasy game had aspects identical to reality and that followed all the guide lines of believability it would not be fantasy but instead History.

Right, but as you eluded to, there is a line that has been crossed.

--Randall

Yup. Let's just hope in DA3 the line can be in the perfect balance.

[ragnaven]

The people that love DA2 are the ones that love things like god of war, they don't care for realism or anything being remotely correct in the combat of their game. They want, blood, gore, and flash. People that like realism will eventually either group DA2 in a guilty unrealistic pleasure type of game or give it a pass as being to out there.

Now on another note, Fantasy has always been about the people without magic being normal for the most part. Maybe they are very strong or have superior vision and hearing but they are not Goku. That is the realm of japanese anime, and even they don't go to the insanity that DA2 did with their warriors. Excluding maybe Guts.

But maybe I am just weird, I'll grant that seeing as how I have Talhoffer, Liechtenauer, and the sword and the mind on my nightstand.

Modifié par ragnaven, 13 mars 2011 - 11:35 .

[Grovermancer]

So basically, what it comes down to is, people who like the combat in DA2 apparently enjoy console-like combat, more than the far more realistic combat of DAO.

ps.  don't bother saying "no, DA2's combat isn't like console combat!"  after the fact-based argument I and others have already given.  Stop ignoring facts.


Summary:
-- utra-fast movements
-- spasmadic, even twitchy strikes and weapon attacks
-- jumping and leaping all over the place, in the blink of an eye
-- weightless weapons; absurdly too fast strikes and attacks
-- completely wrong, unrealistic combat kinesthetics
-- overall movements and techniques a human body could never do
-- combat that amounts to just beating on each other; beating down life of enemies
-- waves of fodder enemies essentially 'spawning,' all over the place
-- bodies exploding from melee strikes


All that is console nonsense.  And now, DA2 combat.  Those are facts.  They're true whether people like it or not.

Console-like combat should not be in the DA universe.  It completely negates the gritty, real, dire world that DA built up.  Now it's become shallow, discountable, maybe even childish.  (add this to the other ways the game has been "dumbed down" and made shallow, and it's a disturbing pattern)  What a shame.


Of course, I'm not through the game, but I can't see any of these problems changing by doing so.
I played DAO for 16-18hrs a day, till I beat it.  Couldn't stop playing.  One of the most amazing gaming experiences of my life.
I can hardly force myself to keep on w/ DA2.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 15 mars 2011 - 10:12 .

[moilami]

Thank you OP very much of your postings. I see there still is some people with brains in this forum.

Devs say "old timers hate the change".

I say I don't think I can be indoctrinated to move on with this arcade splatter mind numbing gaming. Each time I manage to try I barely manage to play one hour (yet I can do math 12/h a day 7 days a week).

Just not my cup of coffee. Good thing is I don't have to waste money on them anymore. There are tons of better games I already have bought but haven't had time to play

[Wolverfrog]

Isn't that just artistic style? Remember that Varric is telling the story; there are bound to be a few embellishments and flashes of artistic licence here and there.

[Dromgatti]

agree man agree 100% agree

Grovermancer wrote...


DA2 arrived today from Amazon.  Was completely giddy.  Ready to be swept away like I was from DA, one of my favorite games of all time.
Been playing DA1 for less than an hour.  Had to quit, just to post this. 
So far, I can't stand it, almost entirely because of the combat. (I find the interface and status screens inferior as well, but that's another issue)

DAO had visceral, gritty, real combat moves and animations and skills and abilities.  Fit perfectly with the atmosphere and world, and gave the game such gravity, and validity.  (except for 2-H, where swing speed was too slow and lumbering and should have slowly increase scaled as STR increased)  Basically, the combat was perfect and made every other aspect of the game that much better.

But DA2's unrealistically twitchy, fast, shallow crap looks, feels, and sounds like a damn console 3rd person action knockoff.  WTF.  It's literally hard to even see what the hell I'm doing.   It looks like every garbage console action game I've ever seen; leaping, swooshing, blah blah blah.  Where's that Lars Kracken goober from God of War?  (whatever his name is)

Anyhow, maybe start packaging some ritalin with your games from now on, BW.


Ironically, the only one of my friends who I was never able to convince to buy DAO finally broke down and emailed me today and asked about DA2.  Told him I hadn't gotten it yet, so couldn't vouch for it, but that DAO Ultimate Edition was only $40 on Amazon.  Even though only an hour in, I can say I seriously doubt I'll be recommending DA2.


REQUEST TO MODDERS:   Can someone do something about this combat?  Maybe slow it down a lot, add some realistic moves that look like they come from an actual human being?


------------------------------------


TL;DR  --  Some folks on these boards aren't getting it.

This isn't "opinion."  These are facts:

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

All the crap listed above, is what happens in 3rd-person action console games.  Twitch-based, button-mashing, hack n' slash crap.  Shiny, flashy garbage.  The stuff a monkey can play.

None of the stuff listed above was the norm for DAO's combat.

DAO's world and atmosphere was gritty, dire, and real.  So was the combat.  The combat fit the world.  Backed up the atmosphere.  It looked and felt effortful.  It had gravity.  Even stylized moves still hearkened to an actual, real combat.

DA2's combat hearkens to console games.

Add platform jumping, and Dragon Age 3 will be Bioware's God of Castlevania's Dante's Inferno War.

[Grovermancer]

The telling thing is how none of the cheerleaders bother posting in this thread. Guess it's kinda hard to argue against facts.

Maybe they're just ashamed to admit they're stimulated by console arcade combat.

[Grovermancer]

Wolverfrog wrote...

Isn't that just artistic style? Remember that Varric is telling the story; there are bound to be a few embellishments and flashes of artistic licence here and there.

LOL, a few???

If they were gonna do that, they could've left it at certain portions.  Say for example, the very beginning, which Varric acknowledges as being a bit of a fabrication.  To do this to all combat through the whole game, just as a story-telling device? 

[Funkjoker]

Grovermancer, you are absolutely right.

I'd post "QFT" to all your posts but my post would be too long after that ^^

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 15 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[Rockpopple]

Yup. All us console players are so dumb we just can't tell a bad thing when it's in front of us. We can barely tie our shoes in the morning.

Excuse me while I go drool in a bucket.