285 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

Grovermancer wrote...

Then we'll have to agree to disagree, since I saw footage of the character doing what looked exactly like the 2-H Scythe move.

But on a larger scale... how about this, in regards to DA2's comat:

-- utra-fast movements
-- spasmadic, even twitchy strikes and weapon attacks
-- jumping and leaping all over the place, in the blink of an eye
-- weightless weapons; absurdly too fast strikes and attacks
-- completely wrong, unrealistic and unnatural combat kinesthetics
-- overall movements and techniques a human body could never do
-- combat that amounts to just beating on each other; beating down life of enemies (especially bosses)
-- waves of fodder enemies essentially 'spawning,' all over the place
-- bodies exploding from melee strikes

Would you say that is true?  If not, what specifically is not?

Because that is the same thing we've traditionally seen in most console hack n' slash games, such as Ninja Gaiden, and all the rest.

-The movements in DA2 are fast, yes. However, other than a few gap-closing techniques, they aren't much faster than normal.

-I have yet to see spasmic or twitchy strikes. At best, if you try to attack while a character is in the middle of an animation, they will do an odd half movement.

-There is jumping and leaping, yes.

-I didn't find the weapon attacks to be overly fast in comparison to real life videos on youtube. Weapons aren't that heavy either.

-What is wrong with the kinesthetics?

-What can't be done? A few of the rogue leaps and the warrior scythe move, but other than that is seems fine if stylized. Origins also suffered from this.

-Use cross class combos if you want enemies to die faster.

-All games have spawning enemies. The implementation could have been better, yes. I liked the wave combat, though it could have been used less often.

-Exploding bodies have been used in a few Bioware games. The frequency has been toned down with the latest patch.

[Bejos_]

Grovermancer wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

In other words: 

OT: The combat animations are fun. That's one of the very few things I actually liked about the game.

That's what I figured.

So because I liked the combat animations ... What? What is your point here? I'm waiting.

You've already made it in your 2 spam posts, as well as the 2 after, which includes this one.

Unless you can dispute the fact list on Page 1., and/or the implications/conclusions of those lists.

Right.

You have an argument to make, but you won't come out and make it.

Okay. Have fun doing whatever it is you're trying to do here.

It's interesting that you won't engage me on the issue of whatever that statement above was meant to convey, but you're more than willing to throw around veiled epithets.

You and Elhanan make people like Zanallen look reasonable.

I have.  The thread has.  Your games and pretention don't change that.  It's here for all to see.

You spammed 'necro!  necro!,' cause you like DA2's combat, but couldn't negate the thread premise and given facts; you couldn't offer an actual counter-argument. 

That reflects on you.  (and possibly, on the mindset that would like spaz-kewl console combat, ironically enough)

I also mentioned -- as though it's necessary -- the entire premise of the thread, for you to actually address, after your spam-necro stuff.
Again you run from it and refuse to step up and address it.

Sorry, you won't get this thread closed.  Nice try, though.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I hate DA2. I think Zanallen can attest to that, as can an as-similarly-presumptuous-as-you-guy called Elhanan.

I have exactly 2 things I like about DA2-- the combat animations, and ... I actually forget the other at the moment. If you need enough further proof that I'm not a "console sissy" or "biodrone", you're more than welcome to go sift through the last 20 or so DA2 threads. I'm not going to do your work for you if all you're intent on doing is assassinating my character.

I thought combat was terribly unrealistic, but at least the animations were fun.

What wasn't realistic, and didn't even have the aspect of fun to justify its inclusion in DA2:
The wave after wave of enemies. The way that bodies exploded. Archers' special abilities. (A hail of arrows? How the hell did that happen?) Et cetera.

If you'd like to start this conversation again, I'd be more than willing to do so. If not, that's fine, too.

[Luke Barrett]

Let's try to keep this from going in to the 'no, you.' 'NO, YOU!' category that it seems to be heading in.

[Bejos_]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Let's try to keep this from going in to the 'no, you.' 'NO, YOU!' category that it seems to be heading in.

Exactly what I'm trying to do.

[Grovermancer]

Wow.  You're actually gonna try and argue this?  Okay...

There are opinions, there are facts.  There are some things you say here, that are flat-out factually wrong.  Period.

My responses in red.

Zanallen wrote...

-The movements in DA2 are fast, yes. However, other than a few gap-closing techniques, they aren't much faster than normal.

People cannot leap a dozen feet in the blink of an eye.  Especially w/o even loading into it.  This is so for an individual, or an entire battle, and applies not just to leaping, but to all large-scale movements. 

-I have yet to see spasmic or twitchy strikes. At best, if you try to attack while a character is in the middle of an animation, they will do an odd half movement.

A toon in DA2 can attack, and the follow-through happens immediately after the initiation of the movement.  It is literally hard to see the actual swing of the weapon in many cases.  Again, this is not realistic.  At all.  And is not how it was done in DAO.  This continues for combinations (not even necessarily ability-based combos), and on top of everything else, increases the 'twitchyness' of combat.

-There is jumping and leaping, yes.

Often impractical, foolish, no place in actual combat, and put in apparently for flashiness, and faster than humanly possible.

-I didn't find the weapon attacks to be overly fast in comparison to real life videos on youtube. Weapons aren't that heavy either.

You're simply wrong.  All weapons, including 2-H weapons (even when swung, at least at the follow-through, w/ 1 hand) often move in the majority of animations, as though the weapon has no weight.  This is beyond ridiculous, and has no real-life correlate.  You cannot find me video of a world-class athelete who moves like that.  (finding a nobody on YouTube using a plastic sword doesn't count -- seriously -- there's lots of pretenders and wannabees out there that put up fake stuff)  This is a blatent call to console hack n' slash gaming mentality.

-What is wrong with the kinesthetics?

In this case, kinesthetics are how a physical body can move, as well as how it will move when it's very good and practiced at a given task.  World class atheletes swing a sword different than someone who hasn't spent thousands upon thousrands of hours training.  World class atheletes will do almost everything different than a 'normal' person.  (much less than what is physically impossible for a person, as often happens in DA2 combat)  Many of the attack animations, as well as (possibly) general movements, do not correspond to how real bodies move.  (I guess "real body movements" were too 'boring' and weren't cool enough?)

-What can't be done? A few of the rogue leaps and the warrior scythe move, but other than that is seems fine if stylized. Origins also suffered from this.

I don't mind stylized, so long as it doens't lose the spirit of what it's trying to do.  IMO, DA2 utterly ignored the spirit set by DAO's combat and the universe it was in.  Ideally, DAO's combat should have been tweaked and enhanced, not totally disregarded.  Reminds me of the saying, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

-Use cross class combos if you want enemies to die faster.

Yeah, I know about those.  Still irrelevant to the lazy 'meta-design' of giving bosses crap-loads of HP to create the illusion of more content.

-All games have spawning enemies. The implementation could have been better, yes. I liked the wave combat, though it could have been used less often.

Ok.  You liked armored humans dropping into combat from 30 feet above.  No offense, but you've just revealed where your "standards" are.  That's fine.  But that's not in the least believable in a real-world sort of way, and it wasn't DAO.  And there are plenty of games that already offered that 'type' of gameplay.

-Exploding bodies have been used in a few Bioware games. The frequency has been toned down with the latest patch.

I played twice after release, can't even start the game since.  Haven't seen it.  Are there still so many exploding bodies that you literally can't see anything in frame, but blood?  (also, what other BW games did that?)

Modifié par Grovermancer, 17 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[Zanallen]

Aaaaand we're done. Judging from your responses I can see you don't actually want a debate and no amount of evidence will sway your opinions. So why bother? Of course, that's why you revived a two month old thread, isn't it? Oh, and BG2 had exploding corpses.

[Grovermancer]

Zanallen wrote...

Aaaaand we're done. Judging from your responses I can see you don't actually want a debate and no amount of evidence will sway your opinions. So why bother? Of course, that's why you revived a two month old thread, isn't it? Oh, and BG2 had exploding corpses.

Debate about what?  LMAO, what "evidence?"  Seriously?  "Evidence?" 
(If you claim there's a giant spaghetti monster in the sky that controls everything, it's on you to provide evidence.  It's on you to provide evidence people move and fight like they do in DA2)


---Can you find me footage of people swinging 2-H greatswords faster than the camera can capture (ie, as though the weapon is weightless)? 
Can they do it in combos? 
Can they do it w/ 1 hand?

---Leaping 15 feet in a moment?

---People jumping 30 feet onto concete, while fully armored, then jumping right into combat?

---Someone who, w/ the barest minimal of leg or hip or trunk movement, shield bash an object of ~ equal mass, and knock it back?


Where is this "evidence?"  No, stop, hold on -- I asked you -- where is this "evidence?"

[Zanallen]

No, we are done. I'm not going to have a discussion with someone bent on stating his opinions as facts and spewing hyperbole while not hesitating to attack the debater instead of the debate.

Oh, and that is the point of these forums. Debate. Discussion. I'll just let this tread drop back into the abyss you dragged it up from.

Modifié par Zanallen, 17 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[John Epler]

And we're done with this thread.

Some of you need to learn the difference between discussion and shouting your opinion as loudly as you can at the other person until they give in out of frustration. You might find people more willing to engage you on a level beyond 'okay, I'm done with this.'

[Grovermancer]

Zanallen wrote...

No, we are done. I'm not going to have a discussion with someone bent on stating his opinions as facts and spewing hyperbole while not hesitating to attack the debater instead of the debate.

Oh, and that is the point of these forums. Debate. Discussion. I'll just let this tread drop back into the abyss you dragged it up from.

Those are facts... or else you would have proven otherwise.   But you didn't, because you can't.


If you find actual "evidence," if you can prove them wrong, if you find footage of anyone breaking the laws of physics as they do in DA2's combat, don't hesitate to post it.  You will have found the first superhumans.


ps.  facts:

-- utra-fast movements
-- spasmadic, even twitchy strikes and weapon attacks
-- jumping and leaping all over the place, in the blink of an eye
-- weightless weapons; absurdly too fast strikes and attacks
-- completely wrong, unrealistic combat kinesthetics
-- overall movements and techniques a human body could never do
-- combat that amounts to just beating on each other; beating down life of enemies (especially bosses)
-- waves of fodder enemies essentially 'spawning,' all over the place  (armored enemies dropping in from 30 ft)
-- bodies exploding from melee strikes