285 réponses à ce sujet

[Lee T]

As far as I'm concerned the clicky feeling of DA2 combat (only a few hours into the game) reminds more of Diablo than any action game. In action game they at least try to spice it up with combos or timing sequences. Here it's jut click, click, click, the same button with the same animations cycling... just like any other hack n slash wether it's on console or PC.

I really can't wait for the auto attack patch.

I know what you mean by "console/consolized". It just seems to me that the "PC player" upset with DA2 won't get their point across by alienating the other part of the community.

I know that if I end up not liking DA2 in the end it will be because I didn't like the game, not because of the media it's been develloped on. The format limitations aren't an excuse for game design failures to me.

[ngen]

I like the new system combat. I like the fact that I can move beyond the reach of a dragons flame breath and not take damage, I like that I can dodge/jump away from heavy attacks and stuff like that. The combat system feels less like pen 'n paper now.

The enemy AI is next to useless though. The aggro system feels like it's taken from an early MMORPG, it's ridiculously easy to trick the enemy into doing your bidding.

What I dont like is many of the things posted by the OP. The whole manga thing they have adopted is utter crap. I hate manga, I hate the combat style in manga, and I hate the feeling that it's way to polished.

I think it looks rather odd that my main tank only have one attack animation when defaulting and not using special attacks. I think it's odd when my PC (which is a mage) runs it looks like a 90's manga figure. I don't understand why my main rogue would consider going into combat dressed up as a prostitute, when I have a full set of leather armor in my inventory....

And so on and so forth. For every improvement there seems to be two things gone wrong for this sequel.

I don't think that DA2 is a bad game per se. It's just a really bad follow-up to DA:O

Modifié par ngen, 15 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Grovermancer wrote...


DA2 arrived today from Amazon.  Was completely giddy.  Ready to be swept away like I was from DA, one of my favorite games of all time.
Been playing DA1 for less than an hour.  Had to quit, just to post this. 
So far, I can't stand it, almost entirely because of the combat. (I find the interface and status screens inferior as well, but that's another issue)

DAO had visceral, gritty, real combat moves and animations and skills and abilities.  Fit perfectly with the atmosphere and world, and gave the game such gravity, and validity.  (except for 2-H, where swing speed was too slow and lumbering and should have slowly increase scaled as STR increased)  Basically, the combat was perfect and made every other aspect of the game that much better.

But DA2's unrealistically twitchy, fast, shallow crap looks, feels, and sounds like a damn console 3rd person action knockoff.  WTF.  It's literally hard to even see what the hell I'm doing.   It looks like every garbage console action game I've ever seen; leaping, swooshing, blah blah blah.  Where's that Lars Kracken goober from God of War?  (whatever his name is)

Anyhow, maybe start packaging some ritalin with your games from now on, BW.


Ironically, the only one of my friends who I was never able to convince to buy DAO finally broke down and emailed me today and asked about DA2.  Told him I hadn't gotten it yet, so couldn't vouch for it, but that DAO Ultimate Edition was only $40 on Amazon.  Even though only an hour in, I can say I seriously doubt I'll be recommending DA2.


REQUEST TO MODDERS:   Can someone do something about this combat?  Maybe slow it down a lot, add some realistic moves that look like they come from an actual human being?


------------------------------------


TL;DR  --  Some folks on these boards aren't getting it.

This isn't "opinion."  These are facts:

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

All the crap listed above, is what happens in 3rd-person action console games.  Twitch-based, button-mashing, hack n' slash crap.  Shiny, flashy garbage.  The stuff a monkey can play.

None of the stuff listed above was the norm for DAO's combat.

DAO's world and atmosphere was gritty, dire, and real.  So was the combat.  The combat fit the world.  Backed up the atmosphere.  It looked and felt effortful.  It had gravity.  Even stylized moves still hearkened to an actual, real combat.

DA2's combat hearkens to console games.

Add platform jumping, and Dragon Age 3 will be Bioware's God of Castlevania's Dante's Inferno War.

Well said, sir. 

(Athough in all honesty, I'd like it if my characters could realisticly clear small obstacles instead of being blocked by a row of 6-inch-high rocks... something wrong in both DA:O and DA2.)

[Oliver Sudden]

I don't know anything about consoles so I can't talk about them, but I agree with OP that the fighting animations have ruined this game for me. It's gotten to the point that I dread getting into a fight, not because I'm afraid my char or someone in her party will die, but because all the silly jumping, twirling, hurtling about the landscape stuff just ruins everything for me.

I'm not sure what it's out of, but I really wish it would stay out of my RPGs.

[lastpawn]

Don't partition players as God of War vs DA:O crowd. I like both games. I also play FPS and fighters. I'm quite good at those... or at least I like to think I am. I've also played games like, say, Final Fantasy VII and VIII, and enjoyed those as well.

But I also enjoy being immersed in a world. And for THIS world, the Dragon Age world, the choreographed dance routine is ridiculous. There's no weight to it. This would work for, say, a Final Fantasy. But it stops me from enjoying this game, because this game, with its darker, more serious story, wants to be taken seriously. And I'd love to take it seriously, but I can't, at least not with the monkey rogue and the dancer mage.

[Rivehn]

If your playing a game and hoping it should be realistic then you shouldn't be gaming at all. Seriously.

[Mossa_missa]

Only swings in DA:O thats feels 'real' are the finnishing moves. All other swings take ages to even complete. Seriously they swing way to slow and to few times. DA2 going in the other direction but alteest thats fun combat.

[Funkjoker]

Rivehn wrote...

If your playing a game and hoping it should be realistic then you shouldn't be gaming at all. Seriously.

This statement is so wrong I could write an essay. However, I don't have the time nor the desire to do so.

Shortenend:

Exaggerated realism is mainly found in JRPGs or many other HackandSlash games, as previously pointed out.

DAO, however, gives us a mature and believable setting to begin with. There is magic too, so your statement is pretty much nonsense.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 15 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[Alpr]

RPG's =/= Realism.

Modifié par Alpr, 15 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Rivehn wrote...

If your playing a game and hoping it should be realistic then you shouldn't be gaming at all. Seriously.

http://dictionary.re.../verisimilitude

It is one thing to suspend your disbelief.
It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mossa_missa wrote...

Only swings in DA:O thats feels 'real' are the finnishing moves. All other swings take ages to even complete. Seriously they swing way to slow and to few times. DA2 going in the other direction but alteest thats fun combat.

That was only true of the 2H weapons.

[errant_knight]

I completely agree with the OP. Between that and the repetitive 'waves' of enemies, I ended up playing much of the game on casual, just so the fights would be over faster. I really enjoyed combat in DA:O, but combat here was just an ugly pain.

I really missed having all the spells to choose from and having so many different ways to build a mage. Most of the time it didn't look like the mages were doing magic any more, but like they were wielding magic weapons. A couple of the moves were nice, but mostly it was 'why the heck are you spinning around like that?'

I loved playing a sword and shield warrior. It felt real and looked heroic. Now it's just...gah! A frenzy, a mess, completely unsatisfying and no fun to watch or do. I particularly loved being a templar, and that was just ruined. Cleanse Area no longer spreads through the area and Holy Smite...oh, sigh. All the beauty of it is gone. The finishing moves were wonderful.

I agree that the two handed swings needed to be sped up, but just a little, and not like that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 15 mars 2011 - 04:28 .

[Rockpopple]

Grovermancer wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Yeah, you know what was super realistic? When an archer pulled out one arrow and it split in mid air into 50 arrows and hit every enemy on the field.

Know what else was super realistic? When my rogue disappeared in front of an enemies eyes into some black vortex. He didn't disappear in a puff of smoke, he just got wrapped up in nothingness, and apparently there was no magic involved. That was REALLY realistic.

Know what was fun, messere? Having a 2-handed warrior haul back his mighty blade for a full second and the rogue enemy not taking advantage by slipping a knife between his breastplate. Nah, he just stood there and took it. It was the only polite thing to do.

Another thing that was fun? Shuffling around your companions as they hacked an enemy to pieces because, well, there's so little room when you're in an open field, so you gotta shuffle like you're in a Wal-Mart on Boxing Day.

Your factity facts can not stand up to my quotity quotes, good sir!

Nope, sorry.

All of that was already addressed, in several posts, on page 1, and this page.  And by others as well.

Keep trying.

*slowclaps*

Perhaps, sir, you could be a little.....more super serial? Please?

[b00mQQ]

Dragon Age: Origins had real combat moves? Shame, the animation files must have been corrupted in my copy, because the only thing I seen far as "real combat moves" are concerned are the rare killing blow animations.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Grovermancer wrote...


DA2 arrived today from Amazon.  Was completely giddy.  Ready to be swept away like I was from DA, one of my favorite games of all time.
Been playing DA1 for less than an hour.  Had to quit, just to post this. 
So far, I can't stand it, almost entirely because of the combat. (I find the interface and status screens inferior as well, but that's another issue)

DAO had visceral, gritty, real combat moves and animations and skills and abilities.  Fit perfectly with the atmosphere and world, and gave the game such gravity, and validity.  (except for 2-H, where swing speed was too slow and lumbering and should have slowly increase scaled as STR increased)  Basically, the combat was perfect and made every other aspect of the game that much better.

But DA2's unrealistically twitchy, fast, shallow crap looks, feels, and sounds like a damn console 3rd person action knockoff.  WTF.  It's literally hard to even see what the hell I'm doing.   It looks like every garbage console action game I've ever seen; leaping, swooshing, blah blah blah.  Where's that Lars Kracken goober from God of War?  (whatever his name is)

Anyhow, maybe start packaging some ritalin with your games from now on, BW.


Ironically, the only one of my friends who I was never able to convince to buy DAO finally broke down and emailed me today and asked about DA2.  Told him I hadn't gotten it yet, so couldn't vouch for it, but that DAO Ultimate Edition was only $40 on Amazon.  Even though only an hour in, I can say I seriously doubt I'll be recommending DA2.


REQUEST TO MODDERS:   Can someone do something about this combat?  Maybe slow it down a lot, add some realistic moves that look like they come from an actual human being?


------------------------------------


TL;DR  --  Some folks on these boards aren't getting it.

This isn't "opinion."  These are facts:

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

All the crap listed above, is what happens in 3rd-person action console games.  Twitch-based, button-mashing, hack n' slash crap.  Shiny, flashy garbage.  The stuff a monkey can play.

None of the stuff listed above was the norm for DAO's combat.

DAO's world and atmosphere was gritty, dire, and real.  So was the combat.  The combat fit the world.  Backed up the atmosphere.  It looked and felt effortful.  It had gravity.  Even stylized moves still hearkened to an actual, real combat.

DA2's combat hearkens to console games.

Add platform jumping, and Dragon Age 3 will be Bioware's God of Castlevania's Dante's Inferno War.

some of those points are really dire, though I welcome you to measure each game's level of realism and explain it to me in part, factually, which game is more 'realistic'.

[b00mQQ]

Rockpopple wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Yeah, you know what was super realistic? When an archer pulled out one arrow and it split in mid air into 50 arrows and hit every enemy on the field.

Know what else was super realistic? When my rogue disappeared in front of an enemies eyes into some black vortex. He didn't disappear in a puff of smoke, he just got wrapped up in nothingness, and apparently there was no magic involved. That was REALLY realistic.

Know what was fun, messere? Having a 2-handed warrior haul back his mighty blade for a full second and the rogue enemy not taking advantage by slipping a knife between his breastplate. Nah, he just stood there and took it. It was the only polite thing to do.

Another thing that was fun? Shuffling around your companions as they hacked an enemy to pieces because, well, there's so little room when you're in an open field, so you gotta shuffle like you're in a Wal-Mart on Boxing Day.

Your factity facts can not stand up to my quotity quotes, good sir!

Nope, sorry.

All of that was already addressed, in several posts, on page 1, and this page.  And by others as well.

Keep trying.

*slowclaps*

Perhaps, sir, you could be a little.....more super serial? Please?

You mean "super cereal". Try again, troll.

Anywho, the stuff you stated, is at best, irrelevant.

[Laj I]

Very nice posts OP, i agree with everything you said, and honestly, it must be really annoying having to deal with some people here, its like talking to a wall lol

[Team Value]

It might help if you accept that DA2 is an action RPG. I understand the disappointment when a game isn't what you wanted it to be, but the simple fact is that Bioware does not make "serious" RPGs anymore (DAO was only part of the way there IMO). Luckily, some companies do.

Note that I'm not saying that there is anything intrinsically wrong with action RPGs, they are just not to everyones taste.

[Grovermancer]

ragnaven wrote...

The people that love DA2 are the ones that love things like god of war, they don't care for realism or anything being remotely correct in the combat of their game. They want, blood, gore, and flash. People that like realism will eventually either group DA2 in a guilty unrealistic pleasure type of game or give it a pass as being to out there.

Now on another note, Fantasy has always been about the people without magic being normal for the most part. Maybe they are very strong or have superior vision and hearing but they are not Goku. That is the realm of japanese anime, and even they don't go to the insanity that DA2 did with their warriors. Excluding maybe Guts.

But maybe I am just weird, I'll grant that seeing as how I have Talhoffer, Liechtenauer, and the sword and the mind on my nightstand.

Ironically, when I first started playing DA2, and Hawke had his 6-foot humongus greatsword on his back, whipping it around like it was weightless, and the sounds where "cracking" and "whooshing" and "popping" and he was moving so fast there was a light-streak from the blade...
... I immediately thought of Guts from Beserk.  (especially the Dreamcast game, which I actually still have somewhere)

[Grovermancer]

b00mQQ wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins had real combat moves? Shame, the animation files must have been corrupted in my copy, because the only thing I seen far as "real combat moves" are concerned are the rare killing blow animations.

Then you don't know what real weapons combat looks like.

What do you think a shield bash looked like, generally?  Or an overhead blow from a halberd? 

It looks (close enough) to DAO's combat animations.  As do most of the other combat animations.


Now granted, there will be differences between practice (and/or staged combat), and real combat, with some moves...  Still DAO straddled that line pretty good.


DA2 doesn't even attempt it.

[Grovermancer]

Laj I wrote...

Very nice posts OP, i agree with everything you said, and honestly, it must be really annoying having to deal with some people here, its like talking to a wall lol

The 'funny' thing is, people who try and cite a more stylized move from DAO as "proof" it's "not realistic at all."

Amusing that they can't cite the basic, core, early moves, the one's you use most often... because most of those look exactly like they would if performed in real combat.
Also, they ignore that at least most of the more stylized moves, still at least look like they're being performed by a human.
And of course they ignore all the other factoids cited over and over and over again.

All the while, they apparently ignore that in DA2, every single move and strike, even from basic attacks, are super-human twitchy spaz-crap.

The proverbial "swallow a camel and strain at a gnat."


I think if their egos were threatened, some would argue that 2+2=5 and the "sky is green!"

Modifié par Grovermancer, 16 mars 2011 - 08:09 .

[Grovermancer]

lastpawn wrote...

Don't partition players as God of War vs DA:O crowd. I like both games.

I'm partitioning the combat gameplay, not the players who play them.

I'll play a good FPS.  On rare occasion, a 3rd person action.  RTS's as well.  (not too many of them being made anymore)


But I don't have some ego-conviction about admitting what they are, or what I'm doing when playing them, like some folks on these boards apparently do.

[Otterwarden]

errant_knight wrote...

I really missed having all the spells to choose from and having so many different ways to build a mage. Most of the time it didn't look like the mages were doing magic any more, but like they were wielding magic weapons. A couple of the moves were nice, but mostly it was 'why the heck are you spinning around like that?'

Tragic.  Oh for the days when, as mages, our main beef with Bioware was that they couldn't animate wizard hats.

[JrayM16]

I would not argue that DA2's combat is at all realistic, but DA:O's wasn't that realistic either.

It was more realistic than DA2, sure. And like you said, it got alot of kinetics right.

But DA:O's combat animations lacked sufficient impact to feel real. Sure, people wearing armor and heavy weapons are going to be slowed down, but the point was that warriors ovecame weight like that and used it to power massive'y impactful and reasonably fast strikes.

DA:O didn't have that impact to it. Neither does DA2. Shield bash in DA2 is too slow, it just pushes at the enemy. More speed is required for extreme force of impact. That's just physics. And to quote the OP, "That's not opinion, it's indisputable fact!"

[Grovermancer]

JrayM16 wrote...

I would not argue that DA2's combat is at all realistic, but DA:O's wasn't that realistic either.

I would argue that on the whole, it was very realistic.

Watch someone do a Shield Bash (if using YouTube, please find legit footage; too many phonies and pretenders on the interwebs).  It will look pretty much as it does in DAO.  Same for many other attacks and movements.  When there is stylization, it is still within reason, within the universe, within the law of even DA physics.

But DA:O's combat animations lacked sufficient impact to feel real. Sure, people wearing armor and heavy weapons are going to be slowed down, but the point was that warriors ovecame weight like that and used it to power massive'y impactful and reasonably fast strikes.

Do not agree.  With the exception of 2-H  (as I've admitted several times, as it should have increased speed to scale w/ STR increase) most of the combat moves were very close to RL.  Look it up right now.

Or...  go outside and swing a sledgehammer around for 1 minute.  Have someone record it.  See how fast you really look.

And about the impact...  you mean, against enemies???  Shield Bash slammed into enemies and knocked them down.  Critical Hit smashed down through enemies, blood flying from the nose/throat, knocking them back.  Not sure what you mean by lack of impact...?

DA:O didn't have that impact to it. Neither does DA2. Shield bash in DA2 is too slow, it just pushes at the enemy. More speed is required for extreme force of impact. That's just physics. And to quote the OP, "That's not opinion, it's indisputable fact!"

That's not necessarily accurate, for several reasons... 

1.  A shield smash to the face could knock down a person by stunning/hurting them, not due to force.
2.  The DAO Shield Bash properly and appropriately shows the player throwing their hips into the bash.  That is where the force is generated; not through excessive speed.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 16 mars 2011 - 08:27 .