285 réponses à ce sujet

[Grovermancer]

Mus3 wrote...

I wonder when Grover is going to see past his nerd rage and stop discounting valid points. Grover, you absolutely fail at arguing. All of those points were valid. If you're looking for realism or believability don't watch movies or play games.

LOL, here's the irony.


First, I list facts.  Facts.  They're true, whether you like it or not.

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

The responses?  All sort of defense-mechanisms and tactics...

-  First denial.  (you know -- like denying something makes it untrue)
-  Then dishonest analogies. (like citing magic, which is given in the universe, and irrelevent to the debate anyhow)
-  Then more denial.
-  Then more dishonest analogies, like cherry-picking more stylized moves from DAO.  (all the while, ignoring the whole of DA2's combat is God of War spaz stuff)
-  Then long-winded, convoluted, intellectually-bound arguments, trying to lead from A to B to Z, full of false premises, to try and ignore those initial facts and make the argument about something entirely different, and then argue that.
-  More denial. 
-  Confuse the issue with more side-topics that are irrelevent to the original premise.  (again, in an attempt to not own-up to the facts presented and their implication)
-  Then try and discount it, and end all discussion and stifle others' opinions, with meaningless statements like "it's just a game, you're not supposed to look for realism, get over it," etc.
-  Then finally 'acknowledge' the factual bullet list (cause you know -- I need their acknowledgement, just like I need them to admit 2+2=4)... but then immediately try to make it about something else, end the discussion, or simply ignore the implications of said facts.

-  And now with you, claiming I'M THE ONE not addressing some supposed 'issues' or 'questions.'


LOL.  Uh-huh.  Sure.

By the way... which of these isn't accurate again?

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic

-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings

-- the weapons are apparently weightless

-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat

-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators

-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye

-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

Modifié par Grovermancer, 19 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[Barbosa]

To the OP:
I feel sorry for yourself and many others that bought the game based on DA:O mechanics and Bioware's (past) reputation and legacy, I for once pre-ordered in January and was really looking forwards, if it wasn't for the demo (thank you EA) I woud've been in your position.
Time to move on my friend, there are better things on the horizon (Witcher2/Skyrim) to look forwards.

Modifié par Barbosa, 19 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[Grovermancer]

Barbosa wrote...

To the OP:
I feel sorry for yourself and many others that bought the game based on DA:O menchanics and Bioware's (past) reputation and legacy, I for once pre-ordered in January and was really looking forwards (thank you EA for the demo), if it wasn't for the demo (

Except for TOR, I doubt I ever buy anything new from BW ever again.  I sure as hell won't be buying the DLC for this game.  (I thought DA's DLC was somewhat lackluster as well)

I'll wait for used online. 

[Gorthaur X]

Oh, lord.

Neither DAO or DAII are "realistic" in any meaningful sense, and neither do I suspect any RPG is going to be any time soon, given the conventions of the genre. They both fall on a spectrum, and a person's preference for any particular point on that spectrum, as well as their tolerance of deviance from that point - in either direction - are not matters of fact. They are entirely subjective preferences that are, as shocking as the thought may be, not particularly indicative of a person's attention span or level of intellect.

DAII combat is a little bit to the flashy side for me, but in a world where a warrior can stand up to a 75 ton dragon for longer than the half a second it would take to be stepped on and crushed, and duels between two human combatants consist of bashing each other in the face with two handed swords and being completely fine as long as they have some hit points left, expecting the combat not to take significant breaks from reality is completely absurd. If anything, realistic combat maneuvers would only serve to underline the issues we need to look past in order to suspend disbelief.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 19 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[Relshar]

Barbosa wrote...

To the OP:
I feel sorry for yourself and many others that bought the game based on DA:O mechanics and Bioware's (past) reputation and legacy, I for once pre-ordered in January and was really looking forwards, if it wasn't for the demo (thank you EA) I woud've been in your position.
Time to move on my friend, there are better things on the horizon (Witcher2/Skyrim) to look forwards.

Now EA have their claws well and truely in BioWare I wont be buying any more games from them. not if DA:2 is anything to go by. As for TOR as a Star Wars fan i will buy it but that will be the final game. BioWare sorry to see you go like the other companies EA have bought and shut down.

[djackson75]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Oh, lord.

Neither DAO or DAII are "realistic" in any meaningful sense, and neither do I suspect any RPG is going to be any time soon, given the conventions of the genre. They both fall on a spectrum, and a person's preference for any particular point on that spectrum, as well as their tolerance of deviance from that point - in either direction - are not matters of fact. They are entirely subjective preferences that are, as shocking as the thought may be, not particularly indicative of a person's attention span or level of intellect.

DAII combat is a little bit to the flashy side for me, but in a world where a warrior can stand up to a 75 ton dragon for longer than the half a second it would take to be stepped on and crushed, and duels between two human combatants consist of bashing each other in the face with two handed swords and being completely fine as long as they have some hit points left, expecting the combat not to take significant breaks from reality is completely absurd. If anything, realistic combat maneuvers would only serve to underline the issues we need to look past in order to suspend disbelief.

Thank you, that was explained perfectly for me.

Maybe combat should look like this:



I mean, that's realistic.

[OutlawTorn6806]

Grovermancer wrote...

Mus3 wrote...

I wonder when Grover is going to see past his nerd rage and stop discounting valid points. Grover, you absolutely fail at arguing. All of those points were valid. If you're looking for realism or believability don't watch movies or play games.

LOL, here's the irony.


First, I list facts.  Facts.  They're true, whether you like it or not.

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

The responses?  All sort of defense-mechanisms and tactics...

-  First denial.  (you know -- like denying something makes it untrue)
-  Then dishonest analogies. (like citing magic, which is given in the universe, and irrelevent to the debate anyhow)
-  Then more denial.
-  Then more dishonest analogies, like cherry-picking more stylized moves from DAO.  (all the while, ignoring the whole of DA2's combat is God of War spaz stuff)
-  Then long-winded, convoluted, intellectually-bound arguments, trying to lead from A to B to Z, full of false premises, to try and ignore those initial facts and make the argument about something entirely different, and then argue that.
-  More denial. 
-  Confuse the issue with more side-topics that are irrelevent to the original premise.  (again, in an attempt to not own-up to the facts presented and their implication)
-  Then try and discount it, and end all discussion and stifle others' opinions, with meaningless statements like "it's just a game, you're not supposed to look for realism, get over it," etc.
-  Then finally 'acknowledge' the factual bullet list (cause you know -- I need their acknowledgement, just like I need them to admit 2+2=4)... but then immediately try to make it about something else, end the discussion, or simply ignore the implications of said facts.

-  And now with you, claiming I'M THE ONE not addressing some supposed 'issues' or 'questions.'


LOL.  Uh-huh.  Sure.

By the way... which of these isn't accurate again?

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic

-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings

-- the weapons are apparently weightless

-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat

-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators

-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye

-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

Lol, every once in a while you get a person on the forum so desperate and pathetic, you really start to pity them. While anyone with a brain can acknowledge your point, you still continue your tirade as if you have something to prove. Where is that golden trophy you think you are going to get out of this, oh champion of truth?

Face it, this has nothing to do with realistic combat anymore. You are no forum-champion. Just another teenage-internet warrior. If we put you on the pedastle you think you deserve, will you GTFO?

[Il Divo]

Grovermancer wrote...

Amusing you then follow the predictable nature of empty counter-arguments, the next step of which is to try and belittle the importance of combat animations and interactions...  Which low and behold, you do in that very next sentence.

Realistic interactions? I assume you understand that if I stab someone with a 2-H sword, they are not going to continue the fight as if nothing is wrong.  If not, I recommend that you let someone try it on you some time.  
 

I'm not talking about other elements.  Others can start threads on those other topics.

This thread is about the look, feel, and function of DAO/DA2's combat.

Then all your points are useless. DA:O's combat occupies more than simply 'animations' (what few generic ones were there). Until you are able to realize that, you will continue to cling to your "weapon animations" like some shield.

[Wivvix]

Grover made legitimate observations. No the game is not supposed to reflect reality, but the stylised animations and exaggerated effects like bodies exploding on impact, is just utterly ridiculous.

It's hard to get any sense of immersion when the entire screen is covered with blood and a swing of your sword can cause bodies to explode. Immersion is what Bioware RPG's used to be about. They really failed to immerse with DA2 despite their efforts.
As much as they might have succeeded in so far as storytelling was concerned, corners were cut with regards to the story itself, and dialogue felt somewhat linear and obviously morally fixated in mind of the "friends" and "rivals" system.

If I ever hear someone from Bioware say "press a button and something AWESOME happens" ever again, I know I won't be buying the product they're referring to.

[Il Divo]

Grovermancer wrote...

I have addressed this, several times.  (what is there to address -- your opinion?)

You give your opinions here.  I can give mine:  the animations were accurate.  (again, many moves can be proven to be relatively accurate to RL, thus, not an opinion but an objective fact)

Sure, the 2-3 animations which were actually there. I suppose we could call that accuracy 'objective'. I would not say that this added anything significant to the "dark gritty world".

The 'gravity' means moves, animations, etc., were used that looked on the large part realistic or believable.  Being in DA was real, in a real world.  It wasn't flakey, discountable, or whimsical.  It wasn't fluff.  There was almost a maturity to the combat; you didn't swoop all around, exploding bodies with a swing of your dagger.  You're not superhuman. 

Maturity? I'm curious as to why you felt so 'mature' watching your character perform the exact same attack animations ad infinitum. I call that 'boring', not mature.

And as another poster said, I doubt a 'normal human' could effectively take on a dragon, dual wield long swords, or go into stealth in broad daylight.  DAII simply took the standard attack animations and spiced them up. But this appeal to 'reality' as the basis for Origin's combat does not seem to be holding too well. 2-3 generic attack animations did not make Origin's combat feel 'realistic', regardless of their accuracy (or lackthereof).

[Frybread76]

Grovermancer wrote...


DA2 arrived today from Amazon.  Was completely giddy.  Ready to be swept away like I was from DA, one of my favorite games of all time.
Been playing DA1 for less than an hour.  Had to quit, just to post this. 
So far, I can't stand it, almost entirely because of the combat. (I find the interface and status screens inferior as well, but that's another issue)

DAO had visceral, gritty, real combat moves and animations and skills and abilities.  Fit perfectly with the atmosphere and world, and gave the game such gravity, and validity.  (except for 2-H, where swing speed was too slow and lumbering and should have slowly increase scaled as STR increased)  Basically, the combat was perfect and made every other aspect of the game that much better.

But DA2's unrealistically twitchy, fast, shallow crap looks, feels, and sounds like a damn console 3rd person action knockoff.  WTF.  It's literally hard to even see what the hell I'm doing.   It looks like every garbage console action game I've ever seen; leaping, swooshing, blah blah blah.  Where's that Lars Kracken goober from God of War?  (whatever his name is)

Anyhow, maybe start packaging some ritalin with your games from now on, BW.


Ironically, the only one of my friends who I was never able to convince to buy DAO finally broke down and emailed me today and asked about DA2.  Told him I hadn't gotten it yet, so couldn't vouch for it, but that DAO Ultimate Edition was only $40 on Amazon.  Even though only an hour in, I can say I seriously doubt I'll be recommending DA2.


REQUEST TO MODDERS:   Can someone do something about this combat?  Maybe slow it down a lot, add some realistic moves that look like they come from an actual human being?


------------------------------------


TL;DR  --  Some folks on these boards aren't getting it.

This isn't "opinion."  These are facts:

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance of combat technique on the part of the creators
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them

EDIT:  the facts listed above are true to both RL and the DA universe (since the DA universe melee combat was made to look believable in a RL type setting)

All the crap listed above, is what happens in 3rd-person action console games.  Twitch-based, button-mashing, hack n' slash crap.  Shiny, flashy garbage.  The stuff a monkey can play.

None of the stuff listed above was the norm for DAO's combat.

DAO's world and atmosphere was gritty, dire, and real.  So was the combat.  The combat fit the world.  Backed up the atmosphere.  It looked and felt effortful.  It had gravity.  Even stylized moves still hearkened to an actual, real combat.

DA2's combat hearkens to console games.

Add platform jumping, and Dragon Age 3 will be Bioware's God of Castlevania's Dante's Inferno War.

I agree with most of your post.  While combat animations will be hard to change without a toolset, I would like a mod that slows down combat to bring back SOME of the tactics that DAO had.

[djackson75]

I agree with most of your post.  While combat animations will be hard to change without a toolset, I would like a mod that slows down combat to bring back SOME of the tactics that DAO had.

I don't think just "slowing down" combat brings back any of the tactics, as you'd still be doing the exact same things to defeat the enemies, it would just be happening slower. The combat would have to be slowed down, the enemies would have to be made stronger, and with different AI as well.

Modifié par djackson75, 19 mars 2011 - 05:47 .

[Il Divo]

Wivvix wrote...

Grover made legitimate observations. No the game is not supposed to reflect reality, but the stylised animations and exaggerated effects like bodies exploding on impact, is just utterly ridiculous.

That I think is a big difference though. Saying DAII is 'unrealistic' is still not a good defense to DA:O's realism as a whole. Just now, my brother started up a Dalish Elf Rogue. Watching him use 'Dirty Fighting' on an enemy, I'm perplexed as to how it's realistic or what exactly my character is supposed to be doing in the animation. This is the case for more than a few animations present.

[djackson75]

Il Divo wrote...

Wivvix wrote...

Grover made legitimate observations. No the game is not supposed to reflect reality, but the stylised animations and exaggerated effects like bodies exploding on impact, is just utterly ridiculous.

That I think is a big difference though. Saying DAII is 'unrealistic' is still not a good defense to DA:O's realism as a whole. Just now, my brother started up a Dalish Elf Rogue. Watching him use 'Dirty Fighting' on an enemy, I'm perplexed as to how it's realistic or what exactly my character is supposed to be doing in the animation. This is the case for more than a few animations present.

I always took "dirty fighting" as your rogue kicking the enemy in the family jewels.

[Il Divo]

djackson75 wrote...

I always took "dirty fighting" as your rogue kicking the enemy in the family jewels.

I couldn't really be sure. I thought it looked somewhat like your character throwing 'dirt' in your opponent's face, others I know think that your character slaps the target. Tough to say.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 mars 2011 - 05:53 .

[Mus3]

How can you not see the point? Are you braindead? Neither game had realistic combat, sure, DA2 is flashier but less immersive? No way. DA:0's combat was not immersive. Realistic fighting involves constant parrying and so forth. Did either game have that? No. You don't have to "cherry pick" from DA:O's combat. It was all unrealistic. You sir, are disgustingly ignorant and a complete fool. You rant and rave that DA2 was the only game with unrealistic combat but it's not. You are quick to accuse others of "stifling discussion" but that's only your tactic. You always claim we're being off topic. Start reading posts and making legitimate arguments....

Modifié par Mus3, 19 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[BallaZs]

DA:O's combat was given the opportunity to plan the whole fight ahead, place your companions where you wanted to. The thing is that you can do it no longer in DA2. Enemies appear behind mages while they are at the back. The whole fight is crazy. I have to pause in every 5 sec to realize whats going on. But you can get used to it eventually.

[ashwind]

djackson75 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Wivvix wrote...

Grover made legitimate observations. No the game is not supposed to reflect reality, but the stylised animations and exaggerated effects like bodies exploding on impact, is just utterly ridiculous.

That I think is a big difference though. Saying DAII is 'unrealistic' is still not a good defense to DA:O's realism as a whole. Just now, my brother started up a Dalish Elf Rogue. Watching him use 'Dirty Fighting' on an enemy, I'm perplexed as to how it's realistic or what exactly my character is supposed to be doing in the animation. This is the case for more than a few animations present.

I always took "dirty fighting" as your rogue kicking the enemy in the family jewels.

I thought that move is called Below the belt 

[Vilegrim]

Grovermancer wrote...

b00mQQ wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins had real combat moves? Shame, the animation files must have been corrupted in my copy, because the only thing I seen far as "real combat moves" are concerned are the rare killing blow animations.

Then you don't know what real weapons combat looks like.

What do you think a shield bash looked like, generally?  Or an overhead blow from a halberd? 

It looks (close enough) to DAO's combat animations.  As do most of the other combat animations.


Now granted, there will be differences between practice (and/or staged combat), and real combat, with some moves...  Still DAO straddled that line pretty good.


DA2 doesn't even attempt it.

2h swords (from 2 minutes in)

Rapier vs Longsword

Swrod and Board vs Spear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3J-10KfRe8&feature=related

DW vs 2h: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BjT38B2-KY&feature=related

2h again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE7vVyMHvAs&feature=related

2h swords are FAST, just nowhere near as fast as in DA2.

[DA_Joran]

I only watched two videos and can spot problems immediately. You have never been in the military or you wouldn't use these videos as "proof" for your thoughts. There is a vast difference between historians and true fighters. Historians can not accurately demonstrate how warriors fought in armor or  how weapons were used. They lack the training gained from years and years of practice, battle, and instruction. They also lack the requisite strength and endurance for sustained combat. Case in point, your historian begins to waiver after a few minutes swinging a weapon he is unaccustomed to using. I'll put it modern day terms for you. Anybody can pull the trigger on a gun and kill someone. Anybody. However, it takes training and discipline to make decisive kill shots (ie: two shots to the chest, proper shooting technique, proper sighting, etc.) There is a difference.

You do realize that most men in the front lines of sword battles fell instantly. They didn't try to gauge one another and fence. They swung with ferocity and attempted to chop body parts off or cleave their opponents head - 1 strike kills and attack the nearest enemy for as long as they stood. And yes, I'm making an assumption. But it's more "realistic" and honest than those first two videos.

Find better examples.

Modifié par DA_Joran, 19 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[Grovermancer]

Il Divo wrote...

Realistic interactions? I assume you understand that if I stab someone with a 2-H sword, they are not going to continue the fight as if nothing is wrong.  If not, I recommend that you let someone try it on you some time. 

Characters usually did have a reaction to weapons strikes.  Flinching, blood coming out, etc.  Also, this is an area that is an old RPG conceit, though could theoretically be improved.  And supposedly, is being improved for TOR.

I know and have experienced a tad bit of RL combat.  More than I'll bet you'd believe.

 

Then all your points are useless.

No, they're valid.  I'm just not playing your game.  Convoluted mental gymnastics to try and change the premise, cherry pick extreme examples, ignoring the obvious, etc.

DA:O's combat occupies more than simply 'animations' (what few generic ones were there). Until you are able to realize that, you will continue to cling to your "weapon animations" like some shield.

Yeah, sorry, wrong again.  Every move had it's own animation.  And no, what you see and experience is the animations.

[Grovermancer]

Il Divo wrote...

Sure, the 2-3 animations which were actually there. I suppose we could call that accuracy 'objective'. I would not say that this added anything significant to the "dark gritty world". 

Again, wrong.  Every move had a corresponding animation.  And yes, most were accurate, or at least relatively accurate, and hearkened to real, effortful combat.  Not God of War rawr! combat.  And yes, that makes the world more real, more visceral, more gritty.

But it doesn't satisfy immediate gratification for those who want to be zipping across the screen and exploding bodies w/ a dagger thrust.

Maturity? I'm curious as to why you felt so 'mature' watching your character perform the exact same attack animations ad infinitum. I call that 'boring', not mature.

Do you know what the word "irony" means?

And as another poster said, I doubt a 'normal human' could effectively take on a dragon, dual wield long swords, or go into stealth in broad daylight.  DAII simply took the standard attack animations and spiced them up. But this appeal to 'reality' as the basis for Origin's combat does not seem to be holding too well. 2-3 generic attack animations did not make Origin's combat feel 'realistic', regardless of their accuracy (or lackthereof).

What, fighting dragons in a fantasy world?  Using magic?


Go figure. 


Already addressed and dismissed a dozen times.  Keep trying. 

[Grovermancer]

Il Divo wrote...

Wivvix wrote...

Grover made legitimate observations. No the game is not supposed to reflect reality, but the stylised animations and exaggerated effects like bodies exploding on impact, is just utterly ridiculous.

That I think is a big difference though. Saying DAII is 'unrealistic' is still not a good defense to DA:O's realism as a whole. Just now, my brother started up a Dalish Elf Rogue. Watching him use 'Dirty Fighting' on an enemy, I'm perplexed as to how it's realistic or what exactly my character is supposed to be doing in the animation. This is the case for more than a few animations present.

Throwing dirt in someone's eyes would tend to make them stop what they're doing.

Perhaps they could tweak the animation of the receiving NPC for DA2, to have them rubbing at their eyes, instead of the stunned look they had.

[Grovermancer]

Mus3 wrote...

How can you not see the point? Are you braindead?

So which of these facts aren't facts?

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be realistic
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings and most attacks
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them in melee


Hmmm?   I'll ask you another 5 times, if that will help. 

[Rattleface]

Barbosa wrote...
there are better things on the horizon (Witcher2/Skyrim) to look forwards.

Gross.