243 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

Tankosaurus wrote...

I read your whole post, what about it? I was only making an observation about the new random encounters/waves vis-a-vis comments people used to make about the limited random encounters, static enemy placement, etc. In other words, if you find <x> encounter, the enemies were always in the same exact place, etc.

the first game was nothign but random encounters, in fact I remember there being a random encounter that you werent ambushed in in which the main character could choose a dialogue option that was akin to "oh wow I get to ambush someone for once how refreshing"

If people were complaining about a lack of random encounters then they probably werent paying attention, if they were complaining about the game being easy then that is most likely because a 4 mage party was OP because heals/hard cc was OP in the first game

Now encounters are too random, every random encounter has a second and possibly third line of dudes just waiting on top of roofs to kill you, idk i just dont get it i guess.

Ahem, it's only "random" in the sense that you might not see it on a single run. Having done multiple DA:O runs, I've seen that encounter that you're talking about more than once, and it always plays out the same exact way.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 mars 2011 - 10:16 .

[lizzbee]

Tankosaurus wrote...
nightmare cranks it up to frustration

Yeah, I'd never try that   I hate dying, and redoing anything annoys me to no end.

[lizzbee]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

All encounters in DA:O  (even the random ones) were set in number, and the enemies were always in the exact same spot in the exact same numbers - even the "random" Orzammar attacks (I think - could be wrong). The waves of enemies in DA2 do appear in a predictable pattern, and I think the number of enemies is the same each time as well, but the difference between the two is that you're forced to react to the waves on the fly and can't rely on cheesy tactics like standing outside a room and just having your mages nuke the bejeezus out of my enemies. Sure, that was undeniably entertaining, but it wasn't much of a challenge if you were on your umpteenth run in DA:O (well, for me anyway, that got a bit old).

For all we know the trash mobs on the night maps spawn exactly the same way and in the same places in subsequent playthroughs.  Has anyone gotten far enough through to confirm this?  I'm starting to think I don't want to.  If I wasn't so frustrated with combat right now, I'd be playing instead of venting.

[Tankosaurus]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

All encounters in DA:O  (even the random ones) were set in number, and the enemies were always in the exact same spot in the exact same numbers - even the "random" Orzammar attacks (I think - could be wrong). The waves of enemies in DA2 do appear in a predictable pattern, and I think the number of enemies is the same each time as well, but the difference between the two is that you're forced to react to the waves on the fly and can't rely on cheesy tactics like standing outside a room and just having your mages nuke the bejeezus out of my enemies. Sure, that was undeniably entertaining, but it wasn't much of a challenge if you were on your umpteenth run in DA:O (well, for me anyway, that got a bit old).

this is because mages were op, they are not anymore

you cannot force field spam your tank when they are on a dragon and have them never lose aggro, sleep/nightmare no longer exists, you cannot run blood wound/spirit healer combo

think if the changes to mages that exist in da2 where in da:o, the game would be much harder

But to a larger degree your point is invalid, you are saying that the fights were predictable and not truly random, well neither are these, they happen in the same spots and at the same time with the exact same waves of guys, its all predictable, you just dont have any idea what you are fighting until you're 3rd reload.

[DM Veil]

The waves of enemies are, in my opinion, intended to make you think "Is it wise to fight these guys on their terms?" and move to a better location, forcing the enemy to fight on your terms and not theirs. It can be frustrating at times but any frustration I feel over it is washed away when I wipe them out.

[AtreiyaN7]

lizzbee wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

All encounters in DA:O  (even the random ones) were set in number, and the enemies were always in the exact same spot in the exact same numbers - even the "random" Orzammar attacks (I think - could be wrong). The waves of enemies in DA2 do appear in a predictable pattern, and I think the number of enemies is the same each time as well, but the difference between the two is that you're forced to react to the waves on the fly and can't rely on cheesy tactics like standing outside a room and just having your mages nuke the bejeezus out of my enemies. Sure, that was undeniably entertaining, but it wasn't much of a challenge if you were on your umpteenth run in DA:O (well, for me anyway, that got a bit old).

For all we know the trash mobs on the night maps spawn exactly the same way and in the same places in subsequent playthroughs.  Has anyone gotten far enough through to confirm this?  I'm starting to think I don't want to.  If I wasn't so frustrated with combat right now, I'd be playing instead of venting.

Maybe you missed that part up there, so let me highlight it.  I was saying that the pattern is predictable and that the number of enemies is the same, implying (coupled with my previous sentence) that I think it probably functions the same way in DA:O. That's why I said the difference is that the waves force you to react differently.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 mars 2011 - 10:33 .

[Tankosaurus]

Filament wrote...
Well, it hasn't been that frustrating to me so far, anyway. Just need to tank the crowds, and then combo the **** out of those damn assassins and mages as a first priority, and commanders as a second priority. Though... one particular instance with multiple consecutive battles with cutscenes in between preventing the use of saves, while playing on nightmare and trying not to let anyone get injured... yeah, that was annoying as hell. And qunari make my primal mage cry.

I'm only at level 10 though, don't know how far in that is, or what difficulties/frustrations I may have yet to face.

But anyway, I don't see how that's less tactical, really. Because you can't metagame the encounter knowing where everyone is beforehand? You can still metagame in a sense, knowing where the waves will be coming from, and what kind of elite enemies to expect. It just means you have to plan beyond that initial group.

because on nightmare you dont have the luxury of saving all your cc for the second wave, the enemies are hard enough on the first wave, and after you have spent your resources controlling them a second wave comes out and 2 shots your squishies.

tanks cannot hold aggro that well in this game, so having them pick up another wave is impossible, you ahve to blow them up.

if the enemy ai were better or were less generic and had better abilities or something, maybe were more varied, then the game could be more tactical, but at this point its just an arcade style game

[Myounage]

It's okay for some battles, and can even make some battles memorable, the problem with DA 2 is that it happensd with EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER. I have seen two encounters that did not have spawns and I'm about to start act 3.

Really it makes the game all the same and takes away from all the boss fights that involve reinforcements.

Modifié par Myounage, 12 mars 2011 - 10:34 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Tankosaurus wrote...

this is because mages were op, they are not anymore

you cannot force field spam your tank when they are on a dragon and have them never lose aggro, sleep/nightmare no longer exists, you cannot run blood wound/spirit healer combo

think if the changes to mages that exist in da2 where in da:o, the game would be much harder

But to a larger degree your point is invalid, you are saying that the fights were predictable and not truly random, well neither are these, they happen in the same spots and at the same time with the exact same waves of guys, its all predictable, you just dont have any idea what you are fighting until you're 3rd reload.

See my other post, because I'm getting tired of the lack of reading comprehension. I never said that the new encounters were NOT predictable. In fact, if you'd actually read carefully, you'd see that I clearly said that the waves are predictable and that the numbers of enemies are the same, which I said because I had to reload quite a few times on some of the hard fights. What I said in that earlier post  (which I'll also repeat again) is that the difference lies in that the waves force you to react differently.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 mars 2011 - 10:33 .

[darklordpocky-san]

I agree with ya, but playing a mage this time; I think the reworking is awful and too damn restricting.

If I want to live, I have to be a healer for my party. . . unless I just stick with Anders. . . and I don't want to darn it.

[Karasel]

I hate how you kill everyone, and then a whole new wave of enemies appear out of no where.. WTF? And then one of my companions goes to bum f*ck nowhere and gets themselves killed, course I've learned to babysit them and make sure that after one enemy falls their no going to run whichever way their heads turn.

[Myounage]

Oh, let's not mention how hard they nerfed PC healing. If you want to play hard / NM Anders is a forced companion for the entire game due to Panacea / Aid / Regroup.

[lizzbee]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

All encounters in DA:O  (even the random ones) were set in number, and the enemies were always in the exact same spot in the exact same numbers - even the "random" Orzammar attacks (I think - could be wrong). The waves of enemies in DA2 do appear in a predictable pattern, and I think the number of enemies is the same each time as well, but the difference between the two is that you're forced to react to the waves on the fly and can't rely on cheesy tactics like standing outside a room and just having your mages nuke the bejeezus out of my enemies. Sure, that was undeniably entertaining, but it wasn't much of a challenge if you were on your umpteenth run in DA:O (well, for me anyway, that got a bit old).

For all we know the trash mobs on the night maps spawn exactly the same way and in the same places in subsequent playthroughs.  Has anyone gotten far enough through to confirm this?  I'm starting to think I don't want to.  If I wasn't so frustrated with combat right now, I'd be playing instead of venting.

Maybe you missed that part up there, so let me highlight it.  I was saying that the pattern is predictable and that the number of enemies is the same, implying (couple with my previous sentence) that I think it probably functions the same way in DA:O. That's why I said the difference is that the waves force you to react differently.

Which pretty much means you'll get bored just like you did with DA:O, and the only difference is that you'll be "anticipating" in different ways.  Next playthrough, you'll save your Firestorm and nuke the next wave of trash mobs in the middle of their sudden materialization from nowhere instead of using it to take out the first wave.

Anyway, missed the middle of your post, sorry.

[Tankosaurus]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

See my other post, because I'm getting tired of the lack of reading comprehension. I never said that the new encounters were NOT predictable. In fact, if you'd actually read carefully, you'd see that I clearly said that the waves are predictable and that the numbers of enemies are the same, which I said because I had to reload quite a few times on some of the hard fights. What I said in that earlier post  (which I'll also repeat again) is that the difference lies in that the waves force you to react differently.

feigning frustration when you negate your own premise does not make what you said valid, it just shows you're goign to repeat what you have to say ad nauseum without contributing much else

on to other things, if you have to save and reload often on hard (think what nightmare is like) then I think you must at least admit this is either

A) poor design

or

We all suck at this game

Now, not to sound cocky, but I am usually pretty good at strategy rpgs, i get the basics and then I usually do well.  I am not frustrated by my 'lack' of being able to break this game or that im dying a lot.  its the WAY that its happening that is frustrating, it gives the appearance of being 'challenging' while in fact simply being corny.

[flushfire]

I am amazed how there are even people defending waves of enemies saying it is an improvement/more tactical WTH are you people on, I need some of that so when my dog takes a dump I'd see it as the most precious gift God has ever given mankind.

Let's look at some of the most memorable tactical games of old to see if they used waves as extensively as DA2:
Final Fantasy Tactics: No
Jagged Alliance: No
Chess: No waves at all

Ladies and gentlemen, even with these 3 games combined DA2 surpasses these games in the number of waves it throws at you. Therefore DA2 is in fact, the better tactical experience. It is the future of tactical gaming. It may be even within reason to say it is the best tactical RPG man has ever created.

Modifié par flushfire, 12 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[Ixalmaris]

I find it hillarious when the fanboys argue that waves at tactics to the game.

First, there is no tactics in DA2 to begin with except:
I freeze than shatter. lolololol I iz general!!!!

And second the enemy spawning out of thin air makes any tactics a moot point as you will always get surrounded no matter what you do and no amount of the limited tactics you can employ in DA2 will save you.

[Aumata]

If they would just tone down the waves it would be cool. Though I must admit that this games punishes you for making crappy builds. Right now, I am breezing through, because I started over 8 times trying to go for different builds and I am now stuck on what spec I should choose. I haven't made it past the deep roads expedition but from the way people are going. They should have tone down the waves.

[Pyrate_d]

Waves are definitely dumb. If you're on hard or nightmare, your first few tries of a fight are probably just trial runs to see how many waves there are, and where they spawn.

It's also really lame that sometimes, if you back far enough away, the waves that spawn don't even attack you. This feels like a bug.

[Killer3000ad]

Bioware got lazy, rather than design smarter enemies or smarter encounters they just went with the COD route and spawn wave after wave of enemies.

[Tankosaurus]

Filament wrote...

Well, you have to be judicious so that you have just enough cc to keep from being overwhelmed while you take care of the bigger threats, but not so much that you blow all your mana/stamina on them (or put them on a long cooldown) only for another wave to sweep in while the bigger threats are still at full health. For primal mages though, Tempest lasts a long time (20s duration, 30s cooldown) and is pretty effective (and party friendly), so that helps. I've also been using the stagger/chain lightning combo as a bit of a crutch, hence my mage's crying at the hands of qunari who appear to be immune to .. magic. Dammit. Though now I'm trying to use Varric to disorient + stonefist, but it's not as effective.

I've been able to get by on potions so far, though, without a healer.

well to spin it the way you have before, in this situation what would a mage be thinking

"well im just going to sit here and tickle these guys with my staff, i know i have spells, but i really need to save them just in case a cadre of assassins repels off the roof.  What? My rogue is doign all the work? Meh, let him"

[Kohaku]

I just find monsters coming out of nowhere silly. It's not even for tatical reasons. Mainly because all the fights follow the same flow so there isn't a reason for tatics. There's almost always a mage (if I don't see one I'm shocked). Knock them out first and then go down the list until you're left with the archers. Even with other monster types it boils down to the same thing.