243 réponses à ce sujet

[Tankosaurus]

WuWeiWu wrote...
Do you know what the idea of tactics entails? For a poor analogy, a military commander has waves of nameless minions spawning on top of them every fight - do they whine over 'tactics'? No, they write several hundred books about it (tactics).

May I put it another way? Tactics in DA2 aren't just setting up spell combos or coordinating attacks on a specific enemy in the faceless horde - you can bottleneck, you can group, you can ungroup, you can control.

really well thank you that clears it up, I could have sworn soldiers spawning on the battlefield was a physical impossibility.  Also good to know that books have been written about this, I could have sworn reading sun tzu for a philosophy class and something along the lines of never getting in a battle without all relevant information coming up one or two or more times.  I must have been reading something different tho

/sarcasm

[Ixalmaris]

Tankosaurus wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...
Do you know what the idea of tactics entails? For a poor analogy, a military commander has waves of nameless minions spawning on top of them every fight - do they whine over 'tactics'? No, they write several hundred books about it (tactics).

May I put it another way? Tactics in DA2 aren't just setting up spell combos or coordinating attacks on a specific enemy in the faceless horde - you can bottleneck, you can group, you can ungroup, you can control.

really well thank you that clears it up, I could have sworn soldiers spawning on the battlefield was a physical i

Lol. You never experienced real combat did you (and by real combat I mean Call of Duty)?

[CloudOfShadows]

ZDProletariat wrote...

I'm really surprised to see so much complaining about this choice that Bioware made. I personally find the waves fun, I enjoy many enemies coming at you at once with some being weak, some being tough etc. It makes this game much more dynamic than the formula they used for DA:O.

What is the actual complaint here? It does ad tactics since your squishy targets can now get attacked from behind. There is no safe spot especially when the enemy waves have assassins.

I think the confusion here is you guys are confusing tactics with strategy. DA:O was more strategic since you knew what enemies you were going to face, you planned accordingly, and you executed your plan on your own terms, usually with your tank pulling. It felt much more like an MMORPG than just an RPG. But DA2 has the enemies coming at you from all sides, which forces you (If you are playing on a high enough difficulty setting for it to matter) to constantly move your teammates, protect them, set them up to not die instantly etc. It's more tactical. But less Strategic.

I personally like the change. I feel that Bioware took a lot of what people liked in their change from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2 and introduced it for DA2. I'm enjoying the game a lot, especially the battles which feel more fun. Also the bosses themselves add more tactical necessity as you need to learn their routine and shift accordingly during the battle. It's more like older games we remember so well.

So tell me, what's exactly the problem you guys have here?

I can sign that, too. I enjoy the change - personally I discovered that it seriously empowered walking bomb. Usually the waves occur when you still have one or two survivors from the previous wave... and if that's a high HP guy, leading them to his new friends and then blowing him up. Oh the joy. Probably kills your tank on Nightmare, though That's why I stick with Hard.

And I'm silently laughing about people complaining that nightmare is too difficult - I think it's great. The name at least fits!

[WuWeiWu]

lizzbee wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

lizzbee wrote...


What I miss from DA:O is your chance to talk to the people who might try to kill you.  Like the bandits in Lothering.  You could persuade your way out of the encounter and make money to boot if you really wanted to.

That's probably because the bandits on the bridge wanted your coin to ensure
your 'safe passage'. The Invisible Sisters? They want to make a name
for themselves in Kirkwall as ruthless street thugs who own the city at
night. They want the stuff you carry around on your back; a slit
throat, not words.

Did you get a chance to talk to the bandit groups after the first bridge in Lothering? The ones for the Chantry Board?

Comparison fail.

Yeah, three bandit groups.  The next ambushing bandits had an amusing convo, and some variety in how you could handle the situation.  Leave, ambush them, or just hack you way through them.

All I'm saying is that motiveless anonymous mobs are boring.  Period.  DA:O was nice enough to give you a little variety in your banditry, and maybe a little amusement to boot.

No no, not the random encounters - the Chanter's Board quest, before you meet Bodahn and leave Lothering. Three bandit groups, all very large, all who 'senselessly' attack you at first glance. DA:O had more variety, which also allowed for more brevity, I do not dispute that. What I have issue with is how you seem to ignore those instances where such brief* moments occur in DA2, and ignore the fact that they were not the norm in DA:O.

Development time played a huge factor in this - instead of comparing DA:O to DA2 with some highly irrelevant appeals, let us critique Dragon Age 2 from the premise of Dragon Age 2

*Have fun with that word choice.

Tankosaurus wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...
Do you
know what the idea of tactics entails? For a poor analogy, a military
commander has waves of nameless minions spawning on top of them every
fight - do they whine over 'tactics'? No, they write several hundred
books about it (tactics).

May I put it another way? Tactics in
DA2 aren't just setting up spell combos or coordinating attacks on a
specific enemy in the faceless horde - you can bottleneck, you can
group, you can ungroup, you can control.

really
well thank you that clears it up, I could have sworn soldiers spawning
on the battlefield was a physical impossibility.  Also good to know
that books have been written about this, I could have sworn reading sun
tzu for a philosophy class and something along the lines of never
getting in a battle without all relevant information coming up one or
two or more times.  I must have been reading something different tho

/sarcasm

Hey look I've taken a 1000 level philosophy course I must know something! I can't tell if this is equivocation or not a Scotsman. Can we form an argument so that I may refute it?

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 12 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[DrunkDave89]

I think it works. Since warriors need to actually score kills to regenerate stamina, it's nice to have a steady supply of trash mobs you can take out in 2-3 hits. If they all spawned at once, they'd all die to AOE early on, and you might run out of stamina halfway through the fight with something bigger and nastier. Sure, you might need to babysit your mages and archers, and I've lost a couple of my squishies through inattention, but it makes the game a little more frantic, which works with the new style of combat.

[electroban]

Dragon Age 2: Jade Empire Addition

[Tankosaurus]

WuWeiWu wrote...

Hey look I've taken a 1000 level philosophy course I must know something! I can't tell if this is equivocation or not a Scotsman. Can we form an argument so that I may refute it?

at least when i use sarcasm its relevant and useful to deconstructing your argument, yours is just ad hominem. im not equivocating, you tried to relate how this game works to real life, which is in fact, nothing like real life in any way large or small.

[WuWeiWu]

Tankosaurus wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

Hey look I've taken a 1000 level philosophy course I must know something! I can't tell if this is equivocation or not a Scotsman. Can we form an argument so that I may refute it?

at least when i use sarcasm its relevant and useful to deconstructing your argument, yours is just ad hominem. im not equivocating, you tried to relate how this game works to real life, which is in fact, nothing like real life in any way large or small.

So I've been living my life under the false pretenses of morality? What can I say, I am a fan of that ad hominem argument...

[lizzbee]

WuWeiWu wrote...

No no, not the random encounters - the Chanter's Board quest, before you meet Bodahn and leave Lothering. Three bandit groups, all very large, all who 'senselessly' attack you at first glance. DA:O had more variety, which also allowed for more brevity, I do not dispute that. What I have issue with is how you seem to ignore those instances where such brief* moments occur in DA2, and ignore the fact that they were not the norm in DA:O.

*Have fun with that word choice.

Wow, you're something, aren't you?  You already know the motives of the "senseless" bandits in Lothering, because you've talked to them.  You've also taken on the quest to remove them from existence from the Chanter's Board, which also comes with an explanatory note.  You can choose to take the quest or not, and if you don't, likely the bandits won't spawn.  There's no option in DA2.  You face anonymous mobs for no reason at all everywhere you go just for the "awesome" chance to see more blood and guts spill.

And before you mention it, yes, I do remember the faceless bandits in Denerim.  But they had a few tactics up their sleeves with traps and whatnot, and they actually ambushed you at random, unlike this "spawn faceless mobs for the heck of it" mechanism that seems to be the modus operandi of the DA2 designers.

[Tankosaurus]

WuWeiWu wrote...

So I've been living my life under the false pretenses of morality? What can I say, I am a fan of that ad hominem argument...

you forgot to herp befored you derped ;-)

[WuWeiWu]

lizzbee wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

No no, not the random encounters - the Chanter's Board quest, before you meet Bodahn and leave Lothering. Three bandit groups, all very large, all who 'senselessly' attack you at first glance. DA:O had more variety, which also allowed for more brevity, I do not dispute that. What I have issue with is how you seem to ignore those instances where such brief* moments occur in DA2, and ignore the fact that they were not the norm in DA:O.

*Have fun with that word choice.

Wow, you're something, aren't you?  You already know the motives of the "senseless" bandits in Lothering, because you've talked to them.  You've also taken on the quest to remove them from existence from the Chanter's Board, which also comes with an explanatory note.  You can choose to take the quest or not, and if you don't, likely the bandits won't spawn.  There's no option in DA2.  You face anonymous mobs for no reason at all everywhere you go just for the "awesome" chance to see more blood and guts spill.

And before you mention it, yes, I do remember the faceless bandits in Denerim.  But they had a few tactics up their sleeves with traps and whatnot, and they actually ambushed you at random, unlike this "spawn faceless mobs for the heck of it" mechanism that seems to be the modus operandi of the DA2 designers.

Just the other day (and by the other day I mean today), I heard Varric turn and say upon entering Low Town at night (not verbatim), "There's always some group or other trying to take over the streets of Kirkwall. And someone always willing to pay for their removal".

You know the motives of the charming toll collector, not the groups outside Lothering. They are different groups (the toll collector and the groups outside Lothering). The Chantry board asks you to kill the bandits who would otherwise try to kill you - you can walk out and kill them without accepting the quest. The quest gives you nothing you couldn't otherwise get. Kinda like... the street thugs in Kirkwall (Night)!

I'm not saying it is perfect, far from it; the system could have been handled better. The entire game could have been handled better and I expect, in future Dragon Age iterations, the design will evolve and it will be better. Does that mean I am obliged to tear DA2 a new one? No, and certainly not amidst all of the unreasonable hate.

I have constructive criticism and ideals for the evolution of Dragon Age's game systems - they will go unnoticed in this mess of a forum, so I post where I see the amount of... simplicity... in criticisms overwhelm my desire to lurk.

Tankosaurus wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

So I've been living my life under the false pretenses of morality? What can I say, I am a fan of that ad hominem argument...

you forgot to herp befored you derped ;-)

You realize ad hominems aren't out of the gate fallacious... right?

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 13 mars 2011 - 12:04 .

[Tankosaurus]

WuWeiWu wrote...

You realize ad hominems aren't out of the gate fallacious... right?

oh yes i realize that, but 99% of the time they are.

i pointed out a hole in what you said (which is a big one, prima writes guides on video games not real life warfare) your response was to attempt to make fun of me for taking a philosophy class, it had nothing to do with what was being discussed, it was simply an attempt to make me look/feel stupid (which in my opinion you really failed to do) and therefore undermine my argument. which makes your ad hom fallacious

I realize some like the changes, overall i do too.  however combat being this bad is a glaring weakness in a strategy type game, its not the game I thought i was getitng myself into, if it wasnt a bioware or dragon age game id probably have stopped by now.

edited for grammar i am getting hungry, because i am fat, care to poke fun at that too?

Modifié par Tankosaurus, 13 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Azriel77]

I had to change the settings to the easiest settings because of this and the repeated areas. At first it wasn't a big deal, but after the 274926 time of the same level with repeated enemies, it just sucked what little fun in fighting there was and made it a painful choir. About midway into the second part, I just started skipping side quests just to hurry through the game.

[lizzbee]

WuWeiWu wrote...

Just the other day (and by the other day I mean today), I heard Varric turn and say upon entering Low Town at night (not verbatim), "There's always some group or other trying to take over the streets of Kirkwall. And someone always willing to pay for their removal".

You know the motives of the charming toll collector, not the groups outside Lothering. They are different groups (the toll collector and the groups outside Lothering). The Chantry board asks you to kill the bandits who would otherwise try to kill you - you can walk out and kill them without accepting the quest. The quest gives you nothing you couldn't otherwise get. Kinda like... the street thugs in Kirkwall (Night)!

I'm not saying it is perfect, far from it; the system could have been handled better. The entire game could have been handled better and I expect, in future Dragon Age iterations, the design will evolve and it will be better. Does that mean I am obliged to tear DA2 a new one? No, and certainly not amidst all of the unreasonable hate.

Yeah, and I heard Anders say the same thing.  Doesn't make it any less boring.

I'm not tearing DA2 a new one.  I've been having fun with the game.  Just not the combat after too much of it jaded me.  The ennui has gotten so bad, and I'm so frustrated with its endlessness that I'm venting instead of playing.  I'm close to the end, but I just don't wanna, because shredding all my junk mail looks appealing compared to taking to Kirkwall's streets at night.  That makes me sad, because I like the rest of the game (maybe not as much as DA:O).

I'm entitled to be frustrated with what I find boring and annoying.  And the fact that I'm bored and annoyed at the same time as other people are equally or more so isn't my problem, aside from it being therapeutic to know that I'm not alone.

[WuWeiWu]

Tankosaurus wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

You realize ad hominems aren't out of the gate fallacious... right?

oh yes i realize that, but 99% of the time they are.

i pointed out a hole in what you said (which is a big one, prima rights guides on video games not real life warfare) your response was to attempt to make fun of me for taking a philosophy class, it had nothing to do with what was being discussed, it was simply an attempt to make me look/feel stupid (which in my opinion you really failed to do) and therefore undermine my argument. which makes your ad hom fallacious

I realize some like the changes, overall i do too.  however combat being this bad is a glaring weakness in a strategy type game, its not the game I thought i was getitng myself into, if it wasnt a bioware or dragon age game id probably have stopped by now.

And in the same stroke, you responded in kind. The idea of tactics and the actual tactics used by a general deploying a Bradley APC in a war-torn city are two different things - the general knows that how she forumlates her plan of attack is more important than the actual plan of attack. This general knows that morale, quality of the base mechanics, distance from a reliable supply depot, the image his troops have to the indiginous, the air quality and the quality of the roads. All potential levels of danger from small arms fire to a full-scale armor battle, and contingency plans for everything.

He cares little how his enemies arrive once they are there, and focuses on the survival and triumph of his men. Ad hominem is an appeal to the listener, not whomever I am debating. I didn't so much seek to expose you as to expose your argument, which was based off of poor logic. It doesn't matter to the situation how your enemies arrive once you are in the situation, nor does it matter much beforehand. It's possible to foresee attacks in Dragon Age 2, if not to completely avoid them.


You told me that Dragon Age 2 had no bearing on real life - as such, my comparison to the military would have been null and void. You phrased your argument very openly, so that I may respond with something very obviously at home in both worlds - real life and Dragon Age 2. They are one and the same, that being morality, and change not merely for the setting, real or imagined. So my comparison to military ethos is back on the table annd you're left wiiith... ad hominem.

lizzbee wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

Just the
other day (and by the other day I mean today), I heard Varric turn and
say upon entering Low Town at night (not verbatim), "There's always
some group or other trying to take over the streets of Kirkwall. And
someone always willing to pay for their removal".

You know the
motives of the charming toll collector, not the groups outside
Lothering. They are different groups (the toll collector and the groups
outside Lothering). The Chantry board asks you to kill the bandits who
would otherwise try to kill you - you can walk out and kill them
without accepting the quest. The quest gives you nothing you couldn't
otherwise get. Kinda like... the street thugs in Kirkwall (Night)!

I'm
not saying it is perfect, far from it; the system could have been
handled better. The entire game could have been handled better and
I expect, in future Dragon Age iterations, the design will evolve and
it will be better. Does that mean I am obliged to tear DA2 a new one?
No, and certainly not amidst all of the unreasonable hate.

Yeah, and I heard Anders say the same thing.  Doesn't make it any less boring.

I'm
not tearing DA2 a new one.  I've been having fun with the game.  Just
not the combat after too much of it jaded me.  The ennui has gotten so
bad, and I'm so frustrated with its endlessness that I'm venting
instead of playing.  I'm close to the end, but I just don't wanna,
because shredding all my junk mail looks appealing compared to taking
to Kirkwall's streets at night.  That makes me sad, because I like the rest of the game (maybe not as much as DA:O).

I'm
entitled to be frustrated with what I find boring and annoying.  And
the fact that I'm bored and annoyed at the same time as other people
are equally or more so isn't my problem, aside from it being
therapeutic to know that I'm not alone.

So you admit DA:O had just as boring aspects - in fact, in this instance, much the same boring aspects - as DA2? I understand if it doesn't work for you, but come out saying that and just that - not how it's bad and so much worse than DA:O. Critique it for being Dragon Age 2, not for not being Dragon Age: Origins (while complaining about something DA:O also suffered from).

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 13 mars 2011 - 12:29 .

[Nananenenunu]

The waves are the worst thing in DA 2, at least for me. It kills almost all the fun. Ok sometimes it makes sense that enemies attack in waves - like during the escape from Lothering. You are on the run and the Darkspawns are everywhere. No time to breath. Every time you slow down they get you.

But in many other situations it's just silly. Especially since it happens everywhere. From where does the backup come from? Or where they around all the time and decided not to interfere until half of their friends died? Is there an unspoken rule among all combatants in the Free Marches, that you don’t attack your enemy with all your troops at once?

It becomes even sillier if the enemies spawn in the middle of a room or enter from an area my part just cleared. And then there was this warehouse full of slavers/ pirates who captured a mage. Mage turned into an Abomination and the fight started. Then the usual backup arrived and they were Undeads. So how was this sole Abomination able to summon a bunch of undead within seconds after the fighting started? And why did all the pirates and the demons only fought against my group and not also against each other? I guess the REALLY hate people from Ferelden in the Free Marches. Even the demons.

[Tankosaurus]

WuWeiWu wrote...

And in the same stroke, you responded in kind. The idea of tactics and the actual tactics used by a general deploying a Bradley APC in a war-torn city are two different things - the general knows that how she forumlates her plan of attack is more important than the actual plan of attack. This general knows that morale, quality of the base mechanics, distance from a reliable supply depot, the image his troops have to the indiginous, the air quality and the quality of the roads. All potential levels of danger from small arms fire to a full-scale armor battle, and contingency plans for everything.

He cares little how his enemies arrive once they are there, and focuses on the survival and triumph of his men. Ad hominem is an appeal to the listener, not whomever I am debating. I didn't so much seek to expose you as to expose your argument, which was based off of poor logic. It doesn't matter to the situation how your enemies arrive once you are in the situation, nor does it matter much beforehand. It's possible to foresee attacks in Dragon Age 2, if not to completely avoid them.


You told me that Dragon Age 2 had no bearing on real life - as such, my comparison to the military would have been null and void. You phrased your argument very openly, so that I may respond with something very obviously at home in both worlds - real life and Dragon Age 2. They are one and the same, that being morality, and change not merely for the setting, real or imagined. So my comparison to military ethos is back on the table annd you're left wiiith... ad hominem.

you can relate this game back to real life however you like, sure there are comparisons (there is gravity, when i hit you with a sword it hurts) but this being akin to actual military combat is just absurd.  That being said the type of game this is is different than my expectations (based on previous bioware games and da:o) and while it might appeal to many gamers, it does not appeal to me.  this is because it is not strategic anymore, in my opinion, whne you have waves of minions spawning on top of you, in every fight, in every location.

in the first da:o i always found myself wondering "how does a grey warden manage to get ambushed on such a consistent basis" its the same problem in this game only more pronounced.

[lizzbee]

WuWeiWu wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

Just the
other day (and by the other day I mean today), I heard Varric turn and
say upon entering Low Town at night (not verbatim), "There's always
some group or other trying to take over the streets of Kirkwall. And
someone always willing to pay for their removal".

You know the
motives of the charming toll collector, not the groups outside
Lothering. They are different groups (the toll collector and the groups
outside Lothering). The Chantry board asks you to kill the bandits who
would otherwise try to kill you - you can walk out and kill them
without accepting the quest. The quest gives you nothing you couldn't
otherwise get. Kinda like... the street thugs in Kirkwall (Night)!

I'm
not saying it is perfect, far from it; the system could have been
handled better. The entire game could have been handled better and
I expect, in future Dragon Age iterations, the design will evolve and
it will be better. Does that mean I am obliged to tear DA2 a new one?
No, and certainly not amidst all of the unreasonable hate.

Yeah, and I heard Anders say the same thing.  Doesn't make it any less boring.

I'm
not tearing DA2 a new one.  I've been having fun with the game.  Just
not the combat after too much of it jaded me.  The ennui has gotten so
bad, and I'm so frustrated with its endlessness that I'm venting
instead of playing.  I'm close to the end, but I just don't wanna,
because shredding all my junk mail looks appealing compared to taking
to Kirkwall's streets at night.  That makes me sad, because I like the rest of the game (maybe not as much as DA:O).

I'm
entitled to be frustrated with what I find boring and annoying.  And
the fact that I'm bored and annoyed at the same time as other people
are equally or more so isn't my problem, aside from it being
therapeutic to know that I'm not alone.

So you admit DA:O had just as boring aspects - in fact, in this instance, much the same boring aspects - as DA2? I understand if it doesn't work for you, but come out saying that and just that - not how it's bad and so much worse than DA:O. Critique it for being Dragon Age 2, not for not being Dragon Age: Origins (while complaining about something DA:O also suffered from).

Say what?  I didn't say that.  Aside from the Fade and the Deep Roads, I adored just about everything about DA:O.  The ambushes were just the right length, and there were the perfect pauses between combat and non-combat aspects of the game.  It flowed well between conversation and combat.  Here, it's just combat combat combat.  One conversation.  Combat combat combat.  It's frustrating and boring.  And repetitive as all hell.

I'm critiquing DA2's combat on its combat, nothing more.  My DA:O comparisons have just been for the sake of showing why similar aspects of that game didn't annoy me as much as they do here.  You want me to criticize DA2's combat purely on its combat?  Here goes:

DW rogue miasmic flasks archers.
Those not miasmic flask/stunned, have 2-H or tank pommel smack.
The second an assassin appears, miasmic flask.  Assassinate, and twin fang, if assassin hasn't vanished yet.
Rinse and repeat with any mages.
Kill the rest.

Zzzz.

Do it all over again when the game decides you haven't had enough.

The sad thing is, aside from Varric, I adore all the characters, and I've found some of the inhabitants of Kirkwall to be entertaining.  The central premise of the story's kind of interesting, and I'm curious to see how it ends.  Except for the endless combat between.

**editing for quoting problems**

Modifié par lizzbee, 13 mars 2011 - 12:58 .

[viverravid]

In order to "think like a general", don't you need to have some idea about the numbers and composition of the enemy forces?

Only way to play higher difficulties is fail and reload till you've learned the waves. Yes, you can think slightly strategically in terms of preserving a few cooldowns for the next wave, but it gets very tiresome very fast. I've been having more fun since I swallowed my pride, turned the difficulty down, and treated it as a hack'n'slash AOE combo fest.

Modifié par viverravid, 13 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[trying2warnu]

Modifié par trying2warnu, 13 mars 2011 - 01:15 .

[Pandaman102]

I would just like to muse that scouts are utterly worthless in a world where enemies can suddenly surround you by popping into existence. The waves of darkspawn made sense in the first act and was well done, I didn't even think twice about reinforcements swarming in from side paths and behind us (considering Lothering was behind us).

Not so much when I'm fighting in a dead end in and a second wave spawns a couple mobs behind me where there's no hole to crawl out of or roofs to jump down from.

[trying2warnu]

Man-Giraffe-Dog has been sighted! It's currently hiding its Manliness but it is REAL.



Still Super Serial.

[Siven80]

While im still playing (just started act2) and i do like the game even if its not perfect, i also dont like the fact that most battles feature the "wave" mechanic.

Having some fights use waves, yes thats fine.......but im still early in the game and it seems nearly all fights use waves....AND the kicker is that most mobs seem to be critter level....which detracts from the imo improved combat speed and responsivness as critters level mobs die way too fast.

Modifié par Siven80, 13 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Jzadek72]

This is my one (fairly major) gripe with the game. It just gets so tedious.