243 réponses à ce sujet

[Bostur]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

GreyWarden36 wrote...

aww
too much of a noob to take care of enemy waves?
its not the game that failed you
its you that failed the game.

Once you realise what spawns a wave, which takes not very long, the whole wave mechanic is a bit of a joke.

Exactly

And the original poster feels that this isn't very fun

It's not about being a noob, or whether it can be handled. It's about how fun it is.

[Akka le Vil]

Totally agree with the OP.
Waves are completely stupid from every point of view.

Not tactical because you can not use terrain, as foes just spawn right on you.

Ridiculous from an immersion and realism (and here come some idiot who will say "DURH fireball magic not realism DURH" because he's too much of a moron to realize that magic doesn't mean nothing has to make sense) point of view because, well, seriously, foes appearing from nowhere ?

And extremely painful and boring from a raw fun point of view. Seriously, I'm just slamming my head against the wall when I see YET ANOTHER wave appearing. The most enjoyable fights become the few ones WITHOUT second (or third...) wave, and I've started to randomly put the difficulty to "casual" because I'm tired of it.


Also, the sheer numbers of enemies is just laughable (seriously, it's about what, 20-30 bandit in each street, above a hundred smuggler in a single cave, 50 monsters in a 100 metres long road ?) and completely put you out of the feeling of the game.

I have to say that it's the most glaring fail of the game, which has no shortage of flaws.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 14 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Chaseroy]

Bostur wrote...

Chaseroy wrote...
Still, that's a digression from the topic at hand:  waves of enemies. Like it or not, I just don't see how this makes the game less strategic or tactical.

The basic claim is that enemies spawning at random makes it impossible to plan ahead, one of the core fundamentals of tactical gameplay.

I don't understand this, at all, though.  Plan ahead of what?  Do you mean in a given situation?  So, basically what the OP (and you i assume) wants is to walk into a situation and be able to sum it up in knowing that what you see is what you get?

To me, that is boring and easy.  I've really enjoyed all of the 'oh crap' moments I've had in a new encounter when suddenly a whole bunch of demons spawn that I was not expecting. 

I don't get what that has to do with tactics.

Is it not tactical to manage your cooldowns, mana, stamina and pots in preparation for what might be coming? 

[Ginnerben]

The biggest issue I'm facing isn't that the waves are difficult (Hard, not Nightmare for my first play through). Its that the waves are long. Once you've got some distance from where they're all spawning (because seriously, why would you hang around when they're dropping off the rooftops?) its just a case of holding a choke-point and beating down the enemies as they appear. Even utilizing lots of combos, its just tedious.

When I finished DA:O, I immediately cranked up the difficulty and jumped back in. I've not finished DA2 yet and I'm feeling burned out. It feels more like grinding in an MMO than rewarding, or challenging, with the exception of the rather epic boss fights (Although, I must admit that I ended up knocking the difficulty down to casual in a certain 1v1 duel. After 30 minutes of circle-strafing with my Tank-Hawke, I got bored).

EDIT: Chaseroy, how do you get "Oh Crap" moments?  The only thing that surprises me is when the waves actually stop spawning.  If the wave mechanic were to be used sparingly, or with a bit more variety, it might achieve that. 

Modifié par Ginnerben, 14 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[Chaseroy]

Not tactical because you can not use terrain, as foes just spawn right on you.

/boggle

You all either want something to complain or need to turn the difficulty down.

[Bibdy]

I like the reinforcements mechanic. It diminishes the potency of AOE effects, which have been a plague on the difficulty curve of every similar game. You could plough your way through enough of BG1 & 2 with spells like Sleep and Emotion: Hopelessness, to get all the best gear and then auto-attack everything to death. Similarly with DAO and spells like Fireball, Cone of Cold, Sleep, Waking Nightmare, etc. In DA2 these AOE spells have a direct purpose: save them for when you're under assault from new waves and in danger. They also put in other mechanisms to prevent you from just rofl-stomping the most dangerous guy with Mages that go invulnerable or teleport, or Rogues that stealth and reappear later. Not being rewarded for planning ahead couldn't be further from the truth. If you just blow every damn spell out the gate, you're going to get your ass kicked later. This is completely opposite from other similar team-based combat games that didn't penalize you for kicking down the door and spamming Fireballs in the slightest.

The whole combat system in DA2 keeps me on my toes and rewards me for quick reflexes, planning ahead and keeping track of what all four characters are doing. I love it. About the only thing its missing is preventing me from rushing back out of the room into a tight kill-zone at the nearest doorway.

Modifié par Bibdy, 14 mars 2011 - 07:28 .

[Justin2k]

If you go play World Of Warcraft or something similar, you'll see lots of trash which is really quite intricate.

From groups of 2 mages and 2 melee, to groups of archers hiding behind a big tank... or even one single enemy that requires strategy to down.

Where as here, its the same every time. Fight lots of mobs, more mobs come, mobs have high hp, rogues hurt you.

Thats combat, for the whole entire game. And it just shows a laziness to actually sit down and work on encounters and strategy to improve the combat system and the enjoyment of the player. Shame really.

This game needed about 3 more years of work.

[General9999]

Chaseroy wrote...

Not tactical because you can not use terrain, as foes just spawn right on you.

/boggle

You all either want something to complain or need to turn the difficulty down.

what drugs are you on? denying the facts
its gets so annoying after a while that you just want to avoid fights at all because enemies appear out of nowhere can it be more ridicilous out of nowhere really what the hell? and jumping off tall buildings like 20 metres tall what the hell?
what excuse will you come up now

[Senzen Sumnor]

[quote]Ensgnblack wrote...

so you want it to require more strategy, but hate the strayegy required to face unknown foes in waves? waves give the enoucnters more depth. you have to not blow all your cd's at once and be ready for more[/quote]

[/quote]

I know what you are saying but this makes battle planning and scouting almost meaningless.  Having waves of foes sprout up literally out of no where is just bad game design.  Instead, they should have placed enemies strategically on the map so that if you fight a certain group first and you don't control the battlefield, i.e. remove them quickly and quietly and then reinforcements can come in.  Here, battlefield control and position is pointless.

Modifié par Senzen Sumnor, 14 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[Senzen Sumnor]

Dridengx wrote...

Tankosaurus wrote...

how many times do i have to stand my mages back only to get 1 shot by a spawned assassin .

Who's fault is that? your own. You should be watching the battlefield, especially knowing this type of stuff happens. If you can't handle tactics, and perception, awareness skills are lacking try turning down the difficulty

Should would make things alot easier to do this if there was a tactical cam.

[bellondroneous]

Chaseroy wrote...

 waves of enemies. Like it or not, I just don't see how this makes the game less strategic or tactical.

As I said in my previous post, I (and most others) don't have a problem with the concept of a wave assault. The problem is:

1) EVERY FIGHT is a wave assault. Surely you agree that variety adds tactical depth and homogeneity detracts from it?

2) The non-sensical spawn points are unrealistic. Tactics assumes certain laws are in place that govern what can and cannot happen. A player then adopts a tactical posture that takes these laws into account. When level designers violate those rules without explanation, it detracts from the value of tactical considerations. And it's cheating. 

Chaseroy wrote...
Bear in mind that you shouldn't just stand in the middle of an open area as enemies continue to spawn. You need to use the environment to your advantage, like chokepoints

If that were a viable way control the field, you would have a point. However, since the level designers often have subsequent waves of adversaries materialize out of thin air behind the nearest choke point, such positioning usually ends up being irrelevant. Nevermind the fact that I just got backspawned from ground that my party had just covered, and that offered no places of concealment from which the spawns could have come. That is not tactical depth. That is taking shortcuts.

Modifié par bellondroneous, 14 mars 2011 - 07:36 .

[Yzzid]

To me, strategies like "cheese the AI by running back half a map" and "spawn the next wave only when you are ready" don't seem really tactical.

Feels more like exploiting game mechanics and gameplay limitations because the game isn't designed with nightmare in mind.

[AkiKishi]

Chaseroy wrote...

Not tactical because you can not use terrain, as foes just spawn right on you.

/boggle

You all either want something to complain or need to turn the difficulty down.

You know how it says in the tool tips of the game "use warriors to hold a choke point" well that's fine and dandy as long as things can't just teleport in behind the warrior.

It's like the all have Warhammer 40k deep strike but never miss the target.

[Senzen Sumnor]

Yzzid wrote...

To me, strategies like "cheese the AI by running back half a map" and "spawn the next wave only when you are ready" don't seem really tactical.

Feels more like exploiting game mechanics and gameplay limitations because the game isn't designed with nightmare in mind.

They are not tactical all, it's gaming the system, or finding exploits within the game in order win.

[Ginnerben]

Yzzid wrote...

To me, strategies like "cheese the AI by running back half a map" and "spawn the next wave only when you are ready" don't seem really tactical.

Feels more like exploiting game mechanics and gameplay limitations because the game isn't designed with nightmare in mind.

On the one hand, I feel you're on to something.  The enemy probably shouldn't be dumb enough to feed itself into a choke-point meatgrinder.  Is that an abuse of the AI?

On the other, I can't help but feel that standing in the middle of an ambush is pants-on-head retarded.  When you're horribly outnumbered, as you are for all but 3(?) fights, it only makes sense to get somewhere reasonable.  That just happens to have the effect of sometimes not aggroing everything properly, and the reinforcements that magically appear aren't quite magical enough to appear where they actually need to be.  

[Seival]

General9999 wrote...

Chaseroy wrote...

Not tactical because you can not use terrain, as foes just spawn right on you.

/boggle

You all either want something to complain or need to turn the difficulty down.

what drugs are you on? denying the facts
its gets so annoying after a while that you just want to avoid fights at all because enemies appear out of nowhere can it be more ridicilous out of nowhere really what the hell? and jumping off tall buildings like 20 metres tall what the hell?
what excuse will you come up now

So... why do I find this waves interesting than? Becouse they are intreresting actually. Waves are making encounters more dynamic compared to "classic encounters" (where you see the entire group of enemies just after combat begins). More movement and planning involved when you are playing on nightmare. There is still "holy trinity" (wich is not good), but this holy trinity is better then "classic" (or better say "static") one.

Modifié par Seival, 14 mars 2011 - 07:59 .

[flushfire]

Chaseroy wrote...

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.  I'm a  PC gaming elitist keyboard and mouse snob (I say that a little tongue and cheek but I haven't played a console in 8 years) and I am enjoying this game so much more than the original on a tactical level.

Face it people. Chaseroy is right. More waves == more tactical and that makes DA2 the best actical game ever created. In fact it should be called Tactical RPG. X-Com, Jagged Alliance, FF tactics, FM3, Valkyria Chronicles, you name it. They don't have the depth and plethora of tactics viable compared to DA's waves.

Besides waves, the fact that FF is not even enabled on Hard is solid proof that DA2 is truly designed to be a tactical game. You are all just hater nublets who cannot beat the game even on casual.

Modifié par flushfire, 14 mars 2011 - 08:01 .

[Bostur]

Chaseroy wrote...

I don't understand this, at all, though.  Plan ahead of what?  Do you mean in a given situation?  So, basically what the OP (and you i assume) wants is to walk into a situation and be able to sum it up in knowing that what you see is what you get?

To me, that is boring and easy.  I've really enjoyed all of the 'oh crap' moments I've had in a new encounter when suddenly a whole bunch of demons spawn that I was not expecting. 

I don't get what that has to do with tactics.

Is it not tactical to manage your cooldowns, mana, stamina and pots in preparation for what might be coming? 

Yes plan ahead in a given situation based on existing knowledge. It's not as black and white as that of course, well designed surprises can certainly add to the excitement. I don't think people are opposed to reinforcements as such, it's the random nature that we oppose.

A good type of reinforcement:
Party fights a group of enemies, a door opens and 4 new enemies come running out the door towards the party's flanks. Lesson learned, check your six or dont fight with the back against a door.

A bad type of reinforcement:
Party fights a group of enemies with the back towards a small cave that has already been explored. Reinforcements arrive from that cave. No lessons can be learned from this, it's unrealistic and the experience can't be used to avoid the situation in the future.

Random reinforcements can be used quite well with monsters that we expect to be unrealistic. Giant spiders crawling down from the ceiling works better than soldiers suddenly materializing out of nowhere. Spiders are scary stuff and the surprise effect works well with our fear of spiders. Similar effects can be used with undead digging their way up from the ground. In these cases we can predict that spiders and undead are special cases that we somehow need to take into consideration. Being special cases they only work well if the normal case is different.

Another complaint is the lack of variety. If surprises happen every single fight, its not surprising anymore simply annoying. Effects like this should be used sparingly, then the effect works much better.


And finally we need some way to counter special cases. With the spiders we often have time to move before they actually engage. In DA2 assasins are often used, they attack someone and disappear usually with no counter. As players we are left without control resulting in lack of  gameplay. Its a pure roll of the dice.

Modifié par Bostur, 14 mars 2011 - 08:55 .

[ZiggyZiggy]

Add me to the list of people that love waves. It makes you pace yourself in some fights, instead of blowing all your best abilities at the start of every combat. I agree that Bioware should come up with even more creative ways of justifying the spawn ins. I like corpses and crawling out of the ground, and I love waves hopping down from buildings or running in from doors, but having them just spawn on top of a char seems weird (unless they are ninjas, or summons). Heck, maybe you could have a new AI behavior, a reinforcement-caller, who runs from the fight and if you kill him it blocks some of the reinforcements.

[AkiKishi]

ZiggyZiggy wrote...

Add me to the list of people that love waves. It makes you pace yourself in some fights, instead of blowing all your best abilities at the start of every combat. I agree that Bioware should come up with even more creative ways of justifying the spawn ins. I like corpses and crawling out of the ground, and I love waves hopping down from buildings or running in from doors, but having them just spawn on top of a char seems weird (unless they are ninjas, or summons). Heck, maybe you could have a new AI behavior, a reinforcement-caller, who runs from the fight and if you kill him it blocks some of the reinforcements.

Or you could just disable the last grunt and then take on the next wave on your own terms. Or even just run around a bit while he chases after you. Once your cool downs are ready repeat on next wave. Only time this tends not to work is boss battles.

[Haexpane]

Endless mindless respawn points worked "great" for crap games like Call of Duty so why not just copy that design for everything?

Make Dragaon Age a FPS multiplayer only

[-Conspirator]

When playing on nightmare, these waves are actually thrilling. Like "Phew, I finally made it" and then "Ohmygosh another one, lets stick together guys!"

[Zaq721]

Am I the only one that thinks the waves of enemies actually was toned down as compared to origins? I mean, there were some seriously merciless waves of enemies back then.

[Cancermeat]

i hope somebody mods it that takes out the waves,

[arguile.42]

I honestly don't understand how anyone can defend the constant waves. The system is completely broken and mind numbing. Every encounter is n waves (where n > 2) of increasingly higher HP enemies with a slight decrease in number spawned. Almost every enouncounter starts with with a number of throw-away henchman that instantly explode into tiny pieces when an AoE is cast. Occasionally a high HP boss lasts multiple waves.

You just gather enemies into groups and spam AoE with not a care that party members might be caught in the radius as apparently fire, ice, lighthing, and arrows have all decided to play nice and never touch your friends.

As soon as one wave is almost down their replacements randomly drop out of the sky so you have some more anonymous fodder.

Your entire party might as well all not bother moving as projectiles all seem to travel through or arround corners and the next wave is going to drop on your head no matter where you are so the repetitive terrain is just eye candy (at least the first of the fifty times you're going to see it).

A few hours in and your body count is probably a few thousands bandits of one indistinguishable form or another. The invisible incredibly efficient street cleaners must hate us.

It's a drop dead dumb alogrithm and overall rush job pasted into where level design used to be.

I can overlook all of the other (occasionally glaring) flaws, but the egregious combat system has completely ruined the game for me. I feel I may be missing out on a fun story, but I refuse to work through the mindless drudgery of combat for it. I am saddened as I was really looking forward to this title. I would gladly return the game if I could, as it is I can only not pre-order the other titles.

Thanks, I had to get that out of my system.