70 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo310]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...
That's absurd.  Effective theorycraft requires both thought and effort far beyond the scope of what most people are willing to expend for a game, as well as a knack for statistics that not everyone has or can even learn.

Exactly. It's like playing chess without being able to see all the opponent's pieces.

[bjdbwea]

Numbers are essential. I don't want a vague descriptions, I want to know what effect my items, talents and spells have. The game engine works with the numbers anyway, so there's no reasons not to display them. Especially if some numbers (armor) are actually already displayed. Whoever doesn't want them, can ignore them or turn them off, if the developers provide that option. I think BioWare wanted to distance themselves from DnD, lest they are accused of "stealing" anything. That's understandable. But other systems work with numbers as well, so there's no need to omit them in DA. It's one of the few major flaws the game has.

[Wolff Laarcen]

Pseudo310 wrote...
How come everyone who is immersion-obsessed has no problem with their being character sheets where you choose which stats to upgrade and which skills to select? That's not very immersive. What about being able to control other party member's actions? Not immersive. Do you guys never use those? Do you auto level and use party tactics for everything? For immersion?

Because at its core, 'immersion' is a bullsh!t argument for unimaginative people and everyone knows it. If you WANT to be immersed then you will be and no amount of statistical data nor lack of it will stop you.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:39 .

[Grovermancer]

F-C wrote...

about as immersive as looking at a spread-sheet and picking out the best option.

oh yeah, thats fun baby.

What are you talking about?  "spread-sheets?"

I'm talking about a scrolling record of combat.  An optional screen.  So if you choose, you can see the detailed breakdown of a particular encounter, to see how things went down.  Maybe to confirm if you're working the way you think you are, or are supposed to be.  Maybe to get more enjoyment confirming your character is who you want them to be.

What does that have to do with staring at spreadsheets or holding a calculator?

And since it would be optional, WHY DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN CARE?

[Seifz]

Grovermancer wrote...

And since it would be optional, WHY DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN CARE?

Because we don't want it in the game?  We don't like the effects that it might have on the community?  We don't want the developers to spend time rewriting all of the talent, spell, and item descriptions to make them more "number friendly" and we don't want to have to see those rewritten descriptions?  We don't want the developers wasting precious zots on a feature that doesn't really belong in DA:O anyway?

If you want numbers, go read the toolset wiki.  They're all there.

[Wolff Laarcen]

Grovermancer wrote...
...WHY DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN CARE?

Uh, um... IMMERSION!

[Pseudo310]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...
...WHY DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN CARE?

Uh, um... IMMERSION!

Haha, that's what I'm thinking. It's going to be my answer to everything.

In fact, not having a combat log is ruining my immersion.

[drakedare]

I dont know if have already been said here, probably yes, but if u right click and item and than click on the Eye, the text says what bonus it will grant if u use the full set, it doesnt give numbers though..

Modifié par drakedare, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:58 .

[bjdbwea]

What has immersion to do with numbers / no numbers? The whole game is based on numbers, EVERYONE cares about them (or do you not think about which attribute to raise?), and that's always been an important part of a real RPG. All that needs to be done is to display all of them. No influence whatsoever on the immersion created through cutscenes and dialogue.

[Wolff Laarcen]

bjdbwea wrote...
...No influence whatsoever on the immersion created through cutscenes and dialogue.

which immediately evaporates after you've completed the game once anyway.  A solid combat system with strong gameplay will have much greater longevity.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[F-C]

i personally find the trial and error section fun, i think thats the point some of you are missing about my spread sheets comments. if i have two pieces of gear for example and im not sure which is actually better, i have to do some personal testing and make my opinion off of that. i find that enjoyable.



if all the numbers are right there and so easily seen then it removes that from the game. instead it boils down to what is basically looking at a spreadsheet and choosing the one that is statistically superior. no reason to bother with trial and error, you have your 'spread sheet' to look at it and it confirms which is superior.



as far as the immersion arguement goes, i would say if you were to put yourself in the shoes of a warrior in the game and he had 2 sets of armor, he wouldnt just automatically know that this one set of armor will protect him 2% better than that other one. he would have to put them on, try them out, and see which he liked using better.

[Red-Cell]

Oh look at the casual non RPG gamers telling real gamers that numbers don't mean anything in an RPG.



Talk about an epic fail here. Numbers are EVERYTHING in RPG's and hiding them from those gamers defeats the purpose. Just because you're casual, illiterate, or unable to grasp game mechanics doesn't mean everything should be dumbed down to cater to the rocks of gaming, the casuals that simply go through the motions being a participant rather than a gamer looking for a challenge.



If having to read rules, and grasp game mechanics is too diffifult for you then pick something else. Some of us want some depth to our games and simply picking something up and succeeding isn't that.



Combat log pls k thx.

[F-C]

Red-Cell wrote...

Oh look at the casual non RPG gamers telling real gamers that numbers don't mean anything in an RPG.

Talk about an epic fail here. Numbers are EVERYTHING in RPG's and hiding them from those gamers defeats the purpose. Just because you're casual, illiterate, or unable to grasp game mechanics doesn't mean everything should be dumbed down to cater to the rocks of gaming, the casuals that simply go through the motions being a participant rather than a gamer looking for a challenge.

If having to read rules, and grasp game mechanics is too diffifult for you then pick something else. Some of us want some depth to our games and simply picking something up and succeeding isn't that.

Combat log pls k thx.

in a pen and paper RPG yes numbers mean a lot, because as the game master you have to be able to control everything and so on.

as a player in a RPG you dont need to see every number, saying you do is quite silly.

actually in most pen and paper RPG games i played when i was younger the GM would hide the vast majority of numbers from the players because they did not need to know.



randomly flaming people just makes you look like an angry troll.

[Wolff Laarcen]

F-C wrote...
as far as the immersion arguement goes, i would say if you were to put yourself in the shoes of a warrior in the game and he had 2 sets of armor, he wouldnt just automatically know that this one set of armor will protect him 2% better than that other one. he would have to put them on, try them out, and see which he liked using better.

Actually if i were a warrior whose occupation was battle and whose life depended on his armor, id KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt which armor was better, probably just from looking. "This dwarven-made dragonbone armor offers superior protection to the Orlaisian Silverite!" (or whatever)

You're not really talking about immersion.  Youre talking about your personal preference  for roleplaying the game.  Personal preference is an argument i can accept.

[nicodeemus327]

Not being able to respec is my major issue with this game. I don't care so much about the numbers. I want to find a play style that works for me. All its done is forced me to use the toolset to respec.

[F-C]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Not being able to respec is my major issue with this game. I don't care so much about the numbers. I want to find a play style that works for me. All its done is forced me to use the toolset to respec.

http://social.bioware.com/project/469/

there you go.

i dont use it myself, but everyone says it works perfectly.

[nicodeemus327]

F-C wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Not being able to respec is my major issue with this game. I don't care so much about the numbers. I want to find a play style that works for me. All its done is forced me to use the toolset to respec.

http://social.bioware.com/project/469/

there you go.

i dont use it myself, but everyone says it works perfectly.

Cool, thanks.

[Uncle Ruckus]

Sibelius1 wrote...

To me, it seems that omitting the combat log was an easy way to cut corners and save some money. I don't buy the "Its confusing for people new to the genre" line, because as has already been pointed out there could be an option to turn it On/Off as per the current floating numbers system. I have also seen excuses that the tooltips are vague because the skills and talents were still being finalised after the localisation had been locked down. That is no excuse, that is a mistake that was made in the scheduling of tasks and should have been fixed. The fact that it hasn't been again suggests minimising costs.

haha!  That was exactly my first reaction.

If they open up the math for how things are computed then math savvy players are going to start noticing the things that do not work as expected. 

Things are so much easier when the only info you provide is waving your hands and saying "This sword hurts people real bad."

I bet they have nasty things in their code like coefficients to balance problematic elements that they don't want people to see.

There is no good argument not to have a log (though maybe to use it) other than it was too much work, in which case we'll take it in a patch.

[Sibelius1]

wanderon wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

To me, it seems that omitting the combat log was an easy way to cut corners and save some money. I don't buy the "Its confusing for people new to the genre" line, because as has already been pointed out there could be an option to turn it On/Off as per the current floating numbers system. I have also seen excuses that the tooltips are vague because the skills and talents were still being finalised after the localisation had been locked down. That is no excuse, that is a mistake that was made in the scheduling of tasks and should have been fixed. The fact that it hasn't been again suggests minimising costs.

I love Bioware games and have bought them all (bar Sonic Chronicles). but the amount of fanboyism in these forums is disturbing.

People willing to defend every design decision and aspect of this game are not doing Bioware any favours. They need constructive criticism as well as all the slavering praise provided by the fanboys.
For example, can you imagine they took from this experience that the majority of players are satisfied with ambiguous tooltips and lack of a combat log and implemented a similar cost cutting design to The Old Republic MMO? There would be a huge outcry and it would end up costing them more money to corect the issue than it would to roll it out in the original design.

1) Did it ever even occur to you that perhaps some of these so called fanboys might just be on the same page as Bioware when they applaud some of their gameplay decisions?

2) That perhaps the possibilty exists that YOUR WAY is not the only way to look at a decision?

3) That perhaps the decsions Bioware made were the result of long and comprehensive study and debate on the pro's and cons of the choices in front of them including issues that may not be apparent to some gamer standing on the outside criticizing a game they have had in their hands a matter of days while Bioware has had the game in THEIR hands for several YEARS?

4) They don't need slavering, bellowing rants about how this game is not the same as every other game and thus it's flawed and needs to be fixed immediately either - this isn't your MMO where he who shouts the loudest gets what he wants - this is Bioware - the BG folks and you can count me among the fans who think this game is in fact great and doesn't need a rework two weeks out of the box.

1) Yes, but I suppose I just find it difficult to understand how anyone can applaud the decision to ommit detailed information from the game.

2) I never said my way was best, just disagreed with Bioware's and presumably your stance that it is acceptable to cut the combat log and not fix broken tooltips to save cash

3) I very much doubt that they done a survey of RPG gamers and based their decision to leave out detailed information on the combat mechanics based on it.

4) It wasn't a rant, it was an opinion. I don't play any MMOs at the moment, and dont expect that the game be changed just because I offered an opinion.

For the record I also think the game is great, but it doesn't work great out the box. There are various issues ranging from 100% CPU usage, dexterity, dagger and bow issues, not to mention mage balancing and DLC DRM issues. All this when they had an 8 month release delay in which to iron out these problems.

Blind acceptance of whatever is pushed on you will lead to a poorer product in the future. This time it is the combat log that has been cut, maybe it will be one of your favourite features next time.

[Statue]

Sibelius1 wrote...

wanderon wrote...
3) That perhaps the decsions Bioware made were the result of long and comprehensive study and debate on the pro's and cons of the choices in front of them including issues that may not be apparent to some gamer standing on the outside criticizing a game they have had in their hands a matter of days while Bioware has had the game in THEIR hands for several YEARS?

3) I very much doubt that they done a survey of RPG gamers and based their decision to leave out detailed information on the combat mechanics based on it.

I'm doubting a survey of RPG gamers would lead to that decision either.

For one it'd be inconsistent with what those RPG players will have become accustomed to (not a value judgment on resistance to change, just an observation that long-time RPG players *will* have experienced specific information and used it before), and for two it'd be inconsistent with what we're seeing on the forums and polls on the issue.

I don't have thousands of votes to base that on unfortunately, but given a large enough difference between two proportions a statistically significant result will be obtained in a relatively small sample size. In fact, statistical analysis of the poll results so far produces the following results:

1) For the combat log votes:

A one-sample t-test for proportions was performed to determine whether there was a significant difference between the percentage voting for a combat log window compared to those voting against. The test revealed a highly significant difference at the .01 critical alpha level, t (91) = 5.538, p < 0.01.

2) For the clarity of descriptor votes:

A one-sample t-test for proportions was performed to determine whether there was a significant difference between the percentage voting for greater clarity in descriptors compared to those voting against. The test revealed a highly significant difference at the .01 critical alpha level, t (57) = 7.465, p < 0.01.


For those unfamiliar with statistical analysis, what that means basically is that given the sample size and size of the difference in preferences, the votes for both a combat log and descriptors with greater clarity outweigh votes against to a statistically significant extent such that the differences in the percentages have less than a 1% probability of having occurred by chance alone. Based on those results, I find it impossible not to recommend the inclusion of said features, and can quite confidently refute claims that the proportion wanting those features is in any way trifling or a minority.

Additionally, those conclusions can be regarded as being particularly conservative, since there are also several voters amongst the "I don't want a combat log" and "I don't want clarity in descriptors" who indicated they'd be happy for those things to be included for use by others - and I haven't bent the for/against values in any way to reflect their kindness, I've simply compared those wanting or not wanting the features for themselves.

Free market research since its nearly Christmas. And I award myself a +1 bonus to irony for statistically analyzing people's preferences for statistics.

Modifié par Statue, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:03 .

[Grovermancer]

Seifz wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

And since it would be optional, WHY DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN CARE?

Because we don't want it in the game? 

That's right.  That's basically the whole "argument."  You just don't want it. 

However, those that DO, have precident, as well as obviously, common sense reasons.  (lemme guess -- I gotta list 'em again?)

We don't like the effects that it might have on the community? 

What's that even mean?  Worst case scenario, people make threads comparing the stats of abilities, encounters, etc.  SO WHAT? Don't open the thread!  How will that ever effect you in-game???  (ie, now you folks are objecting, not even how it might effect the game...but how it would effect this place???)

We don't want the developers to spend time rewriting all of the talent, spell, and item descriptions to make them more "number friendly" and we don't want to have to see those rewritten descriptions? 

In other words, things are broken or don't do what they're supposed to...?  And you'd rather us keep our heads in the sand?  (personally, I don't have any issues w/ game-balance, though I've not played an archer yet)

Each argument is more empty than the one before it.

We don't want the developers wasting precious zots on a feature that doesn't really belong in DA:O anyway?

Yeah, stats don't belong in an RPG.  Wow.  Amazing.  I guess "intuition" is supposed to guide everything, huh?

And the code/numbers/calcs are already there.  Just take 5 seconds and give an option for us to see 'em.

If you want numbers, go read the toolset wiki.  They're all there.

Oh, so the encounter my Dwarven Berserker had with Kaxgang is there?
That whopping power swing I nailed that ogre with is there?

Yeah, running to the 'toolset' won't hurt immersion.


Amusing thing is, I would rarely even use the combat log.  Just every once in a while. 

So many of the "arguments" being made are so baseless, I can't believe they're actually being posed.