200 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Admoniter wrote...

In summary time and a place for everything, casual outfits on the Normandy, hub worlds, undercover missions at formal events, etc... Hardsuits, or atleast some form of armor everywhere else.

Tychus approves.



(Take notes, EA/BioWare!)

[Admoniter]

xandrian29 wrote...
Irrelevant?  You're making that statement with absolutely no knowledge of the energy/concentration requirements to keep such a barrier active.  For all you know it is in involuntary reflex to keep a personal biotic barrier active in hazardous situations.  Similar to how one would blink their eyes to protect them from debris.

Like I said in previous posts, I believe the choice was made to not use battle armor for the sake of making sure all the characters kept there personal style.  However, I do believe, as others have stipulated, that biotic barriers are a "plausable" explanation story wise. 

It is irrelevant in that we know it requires concentration, energy and the firing of neurons in a certain order to activate the eezo nodes in the user. So oviousley they are are putting effort into creating and maintaining the barrier. In a combat situation why would anyone replace perfectly good shields which run on their own system with a dressed up version that does the exact same thing, all the while requiring concentration and energy to use. Which in combat is probably not a good policy, especially when there is a system that does the exact same thing but does not require a constant input from the user to keep it activated. The bit about blinking is speculation, nothing more.

I don't understand this nonsense about personal style. Who in their right mind would sacrifice proper protection from combat/hostile environements for "personal style?" Beyond that the whole notion that armor cannot reflect "personal style" and not be instantly recognizable is ludacrious. There is a happy middle ground between harsuits and leather straps that people seem to be forgetting about.

[Vena_86]

^
Suicide mission:
You pick one biotic to generate a biotic bubble to protect you from the swarm. The bubble ofcourse is bigger than it would take to protect a single person which increases the ammount of energy needed. However, you can clearly see that during that short time the biotic is not only incapable of fighting but it is also clear that she/he will be almost completely exhausted just as you make it to the safe point. So it obviously does take energy and concentration.

Every professional would make use of MEs futuristic skin tight body armor, that does not hinder movement at all and be safe just by that rather than going the extra complicated way by generating a permanent biotic shield for no reason other than NOT to wear the appropriate clothing/armor for the situation.
Really, what has been suggested many times, seperate outfits depending on the situation, would be best. Just like Shepard in both games or Ashley for example in ME1.

[xandrian29]

Super biotic party bubble =/= personal biotic shield.

Again and again, neither of you have any actual idea of energy/concentration (conscious or subconscious) requirements needed to maintain a personal biotic barrier in a hazardous environment. That is why I use the term "plausible." I am in no way speaking in absolutes here.

As far as personal style goes, you are correct. In REAL life, a combatant would choose dress for functionality over style.  However, we are talking about a highly stylized video game here. What REAL people would do isn't quite as important to the NOT REAL video game people. You know, because they, like all the science and technology in the video game, are NOT REAL.  Nor are they based on anything that is REAL. Hence, Bioware may have made the decision to not give them battle armor for the asthetics of their personal style.

Hopefully you can understand now Admonitor/Vena_86. =)

Modifié par xandrian29, 16 mars 2011 - 08:29 .

[xandrian29]

*Double Post

Modifié par xandrian29, 16 mars 2011 - 08:12 .

[Admoniter]

xandrian29 wrote...

Super biotic party bubble =/= personal biotic shield.

Again and again, neither of you have any actual idea of energy/concentration (conscious or unconscious) requirements needed to maintain a personal biotic barrier in a hazardous environment. That is why I use the term "plausible." I am in no way speaking in absolutes here.

As far as personal style goes, you are correct. In REAL life, a combatant would choose dress for functionality over style.  However, we are talking about a highly stylized video game here. What REAL people would do isn't quite as important to the NOT REAL video game people. You know, because they, like all the science and technology in the video game, are NOT REAL.  Nor are they based on anything that is REAL. Hence, Bioware may have made the decision to not give them battle armor for the asthetics of their personal style.

Hopefully you can understand now Admonitor/Vena_86. =)

But it requires concentration that is the point I am making here. And in these situations it makes sense to ditch the constant biotic shield in favor of the one that works the exact same but doesn't not require concentration, energy from the individuals body, and constant input to be maintained. Instead it makes more sense to use barrier as the power, a suppliment to your shields for when you need to soak up an exorbitant amount of damage or when your shields have been popped and are in need of a quick fix. Also there are no examples of unconscious biotic powers, biotics require muscle movement to activate the node of eezo not just thinking "Go Go Gadget, biotic shield!"

And yes this is a video game but with that is no excuse especially when we have things like the codex that state the intricate workings of the universe. Lets face it as far as sci-fi goes ME isn't hard but it isn't a space fantasy either (heres looking at your mr. my star destroyer can put out an excess of 100 terrawatts per volley from a single turbolaser.) It manages for the most part to explain everyting unrealistic away with Eezo... well except for the baby terminator and the resurrection machine. So in short I will hold it to the lore it puts forth and so far lore says that kinetic barriers/barriers alone don't cut it.

But really this all comes down to your suspension of disbelief, clearly in this case yours extends much farther than mine. But in my defense the transition from ME2 to ME1 is jarring and not in the good way. I see ME1 where my beat down pose wears hardsuits in the appropriate environment and casual suits when they are warranted. Then in comes ME2 where your casual suit and combat suit are interchangeable (huh?)  I'd just prefer some more consistancy myself, or maybe even the sense that the lore put into the game is not irrelevant and will not be handwaved at the whim of designers who think that style >>>> substance.

Modifié par Admoniter, 16 mars 2011 - 08:54 .

[xandrian29]

If a personal biotic barrier is created by a subconscious reflex (remember what I was saying about how your eye blinks) in a hazardous situation, it would require virtually no conscious thought of the biotic to keep said barrier active.  The energy requirements you speak of are also purely speculation, and therefore, the effect on the biotic's body are also speculation.  Basically you have no idea what effects would be on the combatant(s) we are talking about here. 

The codex entries you say give intricate detail on all the workings of technology in the ME universe doesn't really make any difference in this conversation.  In fact I would say Eezo is a little to convenient of a technology.  The idea that some "magical" substance is the answer to every future technology just isn't all that creative or believable to me.  I'm okay with that though because the overall story, in my opinion, is most important.

It's interesting that of all the things that are completely ridiculous in the ME universe, the idea of a personal biotic barrier is what ruins your ability to suspend disbelief.  Based on the rest of your comment, it appears you just prefer ME1 over ME2 and therefore, feel the need to nitpick over something that really doesn't matter in terms of the overall believability of the game.  I mean come on, you're willing to believe an objects mass can be manipulated for no other reason than because of super advanced Prothean technology that just works, but not the idea of low resource biotic barriers?

I understand what you mean by keeping the 2 games consistent. But let's be honest, the battle-suits in the first game were not at all varied enough in their appearance.  Each character just kind of looked the same.  I mean there weren't really that many color patterns, let alone physical styling.  Like I said before, Bioware probably just did it so that each character could remain varied.  That's why I think fans have come up with the idea of personal biotic barriers (it's not at all my invention, I just read about it tonight).  It just happens that all the people with exposed skin in the hazardous areas also have at least some biotic abilities.  Intentional?  Most likely not.  But, as with so many things in life, a happy accident.

Modifié par xandrian29, 16 mars 2011 - 09:22 .

[Zulu_DFA]

xandrian29 wrote...

If a personal biotic barrier is created by a subconscious reflex (remember what I was saying about how your eye blinks) in a hazardous situation,

How can biotic barriers protect against radiation?

- Ultra-violet rays
- X-rays
- Gamma-rays
- Lazer beams
- etc.

... basically everything that is supposed to be totally or partially negated by the hardsuit (and nothing of which, BTW, is passively detectable by a human in leather stripes).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[Admoniter]

xandrian29 wrote...

If a personal biotic barrier is created by a subconscious reflex (remember what I was saying about how your eye blinks) in a hazardous situation, it would require virtually no conscious thought of the biotic to keep said barrier active.  The energy requirements you speak of are also purely speculation, and therefore, the effect on the biotic's body are also speculation.  Basically you have no idea what effects would be on the combatant(s) we are talking about here.

Once again there is no evidence to the existance of subconscious bitoic powers. From everything we have been told we know that biotics require a movement of specific muscles to activate each power nothing is every brought up about involuntary actions causing one to form their own personal bitoic shields. But energy requirements exist and if you have a biotic barrier constantly maintain and constantly being recharged well there is going to be a power drain, like leaving your cars headlights on all the time.

The codex entries you say give intricate detail on all the workings of technology in the ME universe doesn't really make any difference in this conversation.  In fact I would say Eezo is a little to convenient of a technology.  The idea that some "magical" substance is the answer to every future technology just isn't all that creative or believable to me.  I'm okay with that though because the overall story, in my opinion, is most important.

And thats alright with me atleast they explained (almost)everything away with "Eezo did it" which is more than most games these days. Sure it may be conveniant but its neat little thing that I enjoy, nice and neat.

It's interesting that of all the things that are completely ridiculous in the ME universe, the idea of a personal biotic barrier is what ruins your ability to suspend disbelief.  Based on the rest of your comment, it appears you just prefer ME1 over ME2 and therefore, feel the need to nitpick over something that really doesn't matter in terms of the overall believability of the game.  I mean come on, you're willing to believe an objects mass can be manipulated for no other reason than because of super advanced Prothean technology that just works, but not the idea of low resource biotic barriers?

First thing first, the whole barrier instead of shields thing does not ruin my suspension of disbelief. It is merely a nitpick and has no bearing on my enjoyment of the game. All I'm saying is that to me it makes more sense to me especially from the lore perspective, that shields should be your first layer of defense followed by health. Barriers should be irrelevant especially considering they function identical to shields from a gameplay perspective. IMO the proper barrier is the barrier power, a temporary boost to ones defenses.

I understand what you mean by keeping the 2 games consistent. But let's be honest, the battle-suits in the first game were not at all varied enough in their appearance.  Each character just kind of looked the same.  I mean there weren't really that many color patterns, let alone physical styling.  Like I said before, Bioware probably just did it so that each character could remain varied.  That's why I think fans have come up with the idea of personal biotic barriers (it's not at all my invention, I just read about it tonight).  It just happens that all the people with exposed skin in the hazardous areas also have at least some biotic abilities.  Intentional?  Most likely not.  But, as with so many things in life, a happy accident.

See this is the problem I have with ME2 in general, if the system didn't work perfectly in ME1 just scrap it and replace it with something streamlined and mediocre, that mentality severely dampened my enjoyment with the game. It's stuff like this that just serves to drag me out of the game, that and monster closets, but thats directed at another game alltogether. Sure you know what I will admit that your squadmates hardsuits weren't the most unique things, but that doesn't mean they can't be! Look at Shepards default N7 armor you could instantly pick that out of a crowd or even Zaeeds suit. Look at the original nanosuit from Crysis, the MJLONIR V/VI, The Mining Rig from Deadspace, Darth Vaders armor, Delta Squads gear from Rep Com, Helghast Armor, all of these are hardsuits and yet they are all instantly recognizable. Yes I understand most people thought that ME1s squadmates armor wasn't unique enough, fair enough. But ME2s armor (if you can call it that) crosses the line into absurd with what these people are prancing around in. We've tried it at both ends of the spectrum how bout a little compromise, more armor than what we had in ME2, but make it more unique, have it fit the feel of the character, there is no reason one cannot tailor their hardsuit to their prefrence, Function can = Form.

Long story short the people you have recruited are supposedly (with a couple exceptions) professionals, it's not enough to act the part, they have to look the part to. And catsuits, leather sraps and the sort of clothing you'd typically see on Richard Simmons just doesn't make the grade.

Modifié par Admoniter, 16 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How can biotic barriers protect against radiation?

- Ultra-violet rays
- X-rays
- Gamma-rays
- Lazer beams
- etc.

...
basically everything that is supposed to be totally or partially
negated by the hardsuit (and nothing of which, BTW, is passively
detectable by a human in leather stripes.

Given that element zero basically equates to pixie dust, and that if we're talking realism dark energy does not work at all the way it does in Mass Effect, my answer to how biotic barriers could protect against radiation is this, the same way biotics do everything else they do, the application of pixie dust and magic.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 16 mars 2011 - 10:19 .

[Doveberry]

I would personally prefer to see proper armour and helmets on squadmates when going into hazardous environments. The lack of this is something that has bothered me quite a lot. I can suspend my disbelief, certainly, but it's a far stretch.

[Zulu_DFA]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How can biotic barriers protect against radiation?

- Ultra-violet rays
- X-rays
- Gamma-rays
- Lazer beams
- etc.

...
basically everything that is supposed to be totally or partially
negated by the hardsuit (and nothing of which, BTW, is passively
detectable by a human in leather stripes.

Given that element zero basically equates to pixie dust, and that if we're talking realism dark energy does not work at all the way it does in Mass Effect, my answer to how biotic barriers could protect against radiation is this, the same way biotics do everything else they do, the application of pixie dust and magic.

Why don't we meet any Asari mercs in stripper suits instead of combat armor then? I'd suppose not all of them were such bugaboos as Captain Enyala, and some of them would love to pimp out...

You see, magical thinking doesn't really fly until BioWare officially dismisses the claim that Mass Effect was a work of sci-fi once.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Samara, Morinth, Benezia, any given Asari commando whose outfits only differ from Samara's in colour and lack of cleavage. Their "combat armour" is little more than a generic catsuit and I doubt offers any more protection than the outfit Samara wears.

[Zulu_DFA]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Samara, Morinth, Benezia, any given Asari commando whose outfits only differ from Samara's in colour and lack of cleavage. Their "combat armour" is little more than a generic catsuit and I doubt offers any more protection than the outfit Samara wears.

"Catsuit" or not, it fully covers every square millimeter of their bodies. Add a full helmet on the head, and she's ready for a spacewalk.

BTW, Liara in ME1 had a "personalized" helmet, which was different from the Human "Light" helmet every merc (Human, Asari, Batarian) wears in ME2 in addtion to "Heavy" armor.



Morinth actually despises Samara's suit... So that leaves us with Samara and Vasir's high heels...

[Rurik_Niall]

Was she wearing heels? I didn't notice, I was too busy shooting her with anti-tank artillery. I still see no reason why the ability to block radiation with biotics should be any more of a stretch of the imagination than creating a black hole with their mind that only affects the enemies when in reality a black hole would be quite indiscriminate. In Mass Effect dark energy behaves however Bioware wants it to behave, apart from the name it has nothing to do with real dark energy, so in that context blocking radiation seems just as plausible as making stars age rapidly or any of the abilities displayed by biotics.

[Knottedredloc]

I find it ridiculous that people are trying to justify the stupidity of ME2's lack of armor on NPC by bolting on a theory about biotics sheilds or by claiming that it was done purely for aesthetics. I personally would not care if every NPC wore the exact same armor when in a dangerous environment but I guess my expectation are still in line with the original direction of the ME1 universe with some hard science to accompany the science-fiction. EA/Bioware was aiming for a bigger more shallow audience with ME2 by focusing more on ******, butts, shooting, etc., and by judging the some comments of it's defenders, it seems like they have hit their target. ME1 seems like a more like a Stanley Kubrik or Gene Rodenberry story while ME2 seems like something Micheal Bay would push out.

Modifié par Knottedredloc, 16 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[xentar]

Any concept that requires this kind of justification clearly has problems and doesn't belong in proper science fiction. ME1 (and partly ME2 through the existing codex entries and some other instances) did try to belong by at least trying to explain most technological aspects introduced in the setting.

PS: most people here seem to forget that there is also exposed skin on the quarian ships which is a clear violation of their rules. If I remember Ascension correctly, great biotic or not, noone enters the quarian ships without proper envirosuits.

[xandrian29]

Knottedredloc wrote...
...the original direction of the ME1 universe with some hard science to accompany the science-fiction.

Oh please wisened astrophysicist, give me examples of ME1's "hard" science.

[DarkRicochet117]

Wow, some of that info is interesting and to be honest kinda scary when you put yourself in that kind of situation. If I were going out into space I would wear a full body suit at all times...

Seriously, I can't the image from Total Recall outta my head.

[Tarek]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

This is a universe where it's possible for people to manipulate dark energy with their minds, thermal clips not withstanding guns have a nearly infinite supply of ammunition, the ability to manipulate the mass of objects is common technology, and given sufficient time and resources a corpse can be brought back to life, if I can suspend my disbelief to believe these I can easily believe the technology exists in this universe to allow Miranda to flaunt her cleavage if she feels like it.

sorry kids their is a huge difference between good fiction, and unbelivable crap that has no explanation what so ever,
when people get hit in the face with particale beams and they have nothing on (jack) then it just looks silly, and no shields do crap against energy weapons.

I'm sorry but I want to see combat suits for combat.

[Tarek]

DarkRicochet117 wrote...

Wow, some of that info is interesting and to be honest kinda scary when you put yourself in that kind of situation. If I were going out into space I would wear a full body suit at all times...

Seriously, I can't the image from Total Recall outta my head.

LOL yah thanks for reminding me

no point in argument, in toxic/vaccum/freezing enviroments YOU NEED A FRIGGING SPACE SUIT, no matter how hot you look in tights, ME has good fiction and walking naked in space is called lazy ass bad fiction, what about grunt or Zaeed ?? they don't have Boitic powers why do they show arms, or ears (Zaeed) in a vaccum or toxic enviroments ???!! 

logic wins

the end

[Knottedredloc]

xandrian29 wrote...

Knottedredloc wrote...
...the original direction of the ME1 universe with some hard science to accompany the science-fiction.

Oh please wisened astrophysicist, give me examples of ME1's "hard" science.

OK, how about you and your squadmates having to wear protective gear in hosile environments!?!  You'd only need a basic understanding of science to understand the need for that.

[Tarek]

Knottedredloc wrote...

xandrian29 wrote...

Knottedredloc wrote...
...the original direction of the ME1 universe with some hard science to accompany the science-fiction.

Oh please wisened astrophysicist, give me examples of ME1's "hard" science.

OK, how about you and your squadmates having to wear protective gear in hosile environments!?!  You'd only need a basic understanding of science to understand the need for that.

indeed.

[LJScribes]

well the excuse of Biotic barriers and such could be used for Jack, Samara/Morinth, Miranda and Jacob.

do we know whether or not Krogan and Salarian bodies can endure the vacuum of space? After all they are not humans.

Thane does wear a full helmet last I checked...

That just leaves Zaeed and Kasumi. Who the hell do they think they are?

[Tarek]

LJScribes wrote...

well the excuse of Biotic barriers and such could be used for Jack, Samara/Morinth, Miranda and Jacob.

do we know whether or not Krogan and Salarian bodies can endure the vacuum of space? After all they are not humans.

Thane does wear a full helmet last I checked...

That just leaves Zaeed and Kasumi. Who the hell do they think they are?

thane has a huge gap in his shirt (chest)