98 réponses à ce sujet

[iLogic]

I think Fenris is designed to complement a HawkeMage who takes the top of the Elemental/Primal trees. Setting up brittles and slowing/disable enemies so that he both takes less damage and deals more damage.

Aveline seems designed to complement a HawkeMage who takes the bottom of the Elementa/Primal trees. She can stand in one place taking hits while your mage loads up Tempest/Firestorms and then keep them in that place.

[Jman5]

I plan on trying S&S with it next, but good god on hard a death hex and the 2h alone were just insane. Enemy waves would just be like "SWEET JESUS WHA HAPPEN" before exploding in satisfying blood showers. I will miss giant's reach and whirlwind. On my mage playthrough I'm building both fenris and aveline like this, and am largely ignoring aveline because she annoys me and I had her with me my entire first playthrough.

Just a suggestion from someone who's already had a little experience with a SnS. Don't be discouraged at your DPS in the first few levels. Fadeshear and early drops are quite mediocre compared to the DLC staff, the DLC 2-hander, and Varric's crossbow. As soon as you can afford it go buy either the Desdemona or Thudpucker.

Modifié par Jman5, 02 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[UnresoIved]

spudrow2005 wrote...

yes for the most part aveline is the optimal tank in this game BUT if you are playing on normal hawke can tank for most the game as a dps warrior.

I used a 2H Hawke as my tank on hard without any difficulty and currently using Fenris as my tank on nightmare. You don't really need Aveline as a tank. In fact, I'd say that playing with my two-hander was easier than Aveline on normal. Though that could be because I used Aveline on my first runthrough.

[SuicidalBaby]

Desdemona's is the best 1h for Act 1 & 2. Royeau One Two is better than Fadeshear vs nature immune/resist non undead/demon from when you obtain it to anything prior the Deep Roads.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 02 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[tonnactus]

Yes,rogues in this game get better threat management then warriors.Thats just wrong.

[spudrow2005]

UnresoIved wrote...

spudrow2005 wrote...

yes for the most part aveline is the optimal tank in this game BUT if you are playing on normal hawke can tank for most the game as a dps warrior.

I used a 2H Hawke as my tank on hard without any difficulty and currently using Fenris as my tank on nightmare. You don't really need Aveline as a tank. In fact, I'd say that playing with my two-hander was easier than Aveline on normal. Though that could be because I used Aveline on my first runthrough.

thats good to hear, im glad that bioware loosed up the party choices since i essentially spent all of DAO with allistar, morrigan, and wynne and only changed party makeup for oghren and leliana's respective quest participation

[lenkite]

A sword and shield hawke is amazing..but don't take anything in the 1h tree..use him as a dpser using barrage+claymore+assail+haste+elemental weapons (which gets applied to your shield too)

[qebab]

Aklis wrote...

...You really didn't read what I wrote, did you?

My point is, Aveline will be so much better than you at tanking because of her special tree.

Aveline is much better at not dying than Hawke is.

But Hawke does many times more damage, and reducing the amount of time an encounter does reduces the amount of damage your party takes. I played as a 2H Vanguard tank, and it was a breeze - many encounters were much easier than with Aveline tanking just because of the increased damage output of the party.

If you tank with Hawke, the gameplay revolves around avoiding damage much more than reducing damage that you actually take. You do this by never standing still to let mobs hit you - most foes have slow attack animations and moving around them or charging to different enemies contineously will make them miss most of their attacks.  For example you can auto-attack High Dragon without taking more than maybe 1 in 5 of its melee hits in return - you just need to keep on the move. And the critical part of this fight is the add-phase, not the main phase. Having a 2-handed warrior tanking this fight lets you focus all your single target damage onto the dangerous Dragon adds, as the Dragonlings will all die to incidental damage from the warrior, making the fight way easier.

[mokponobi]

I disagree completely, my SnS runs with varric, merril and anders and I tank just fine. I don't even have taunt.

I think you may just be trying to tank using the "defensive" skills and taunt, and that really doesn't work like you would think.

To tank on NM, you basically want to beat the crap out of everything and slam into everything on the field with your shield. Hard to explain you just have to see it.

I can't show you a vid but there are some on the forums, trust me if you go the shield defense stab stab taunt route you will get everyone killed.

[Ser-Michael]

Well, Hawke is the only person in your party who can equip those awesome (tank) warrior armours. He also get's to choose from 3 specialisations (although none of them is really meant for tanking, which is pretty disappointing).

I do agree however on the fact that BioWare pretty much forces us to use Aveline for tanking and Anders for healing. Especially since I don't like either of the two.

[Mocker22]

First off I'll agree that a true "tank" is not neccesary. 2h warrior is fine and mages can be very surviveable.

Also I played thro as a 1h warrior and I found my guy to be near invincable. The dps wasn't astounding but it worked. Spec for Cleave from vanguard and max out your 1h attacks. Varric is amazing for getting you ton of disoriented enemies to Scatter.

[Scimal]

Aklis wrote...

As far as I've noticed, it's incredibly pointless to play as a tank, because you're in no way equipped for it. Tanking at lower levels is impossible, both for you and Aveline, due to the stupid fact that the only way to gain threat is by using taunt. The twenty seconds until you can taunt again is more than enough for your other characters to get themselves semi-dead.

Then, when you hit, what, level 7 and unlock Aveline's Guardian-tree, there's nothing you as a warrior can do to even remotely match her. Thank you for forcing me to use a character I don't want to have.

So, what should be done to remedy this? I'm only playing on Hard for my first playthrough, so I doubt that Aveline's increased tanking capabilities really are all that necessary, but I'm planning on doing a Nightmare run as a mage after this one, and I still don't want her to tag along.

I didn't have any problems tanking as a 2H Warrior. When you get smashed in the face with a 1.2k damage tag by a guy in plate, it tends to get their attention. Very, very quickly. Assuming they survive the initial Scythe and Whilrwind while under Cleave...

Since all of those are also AoE as a 2H, I was consistently taking out entire groups of anything lower than Lieutenants in 5sec, and as long as you have a decent weapon and Berserker spec (for the increased attack speed - since almost all of the things you can't 3-shot are surrounded by things you can), you just pound on the Lieutenants or other bosses until they notice you.

Won't work on Nightmare, though. If you don't want Aveline on Nightmare as a Mage, you might as well be asking for a rock and a hard place. Isabela might work, but I only used her as a tank in Normal.

[Crocodiles]

Modifié par Crocodiles, 05 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[papality]

i played through as rogue on normal, probably used aveline 3 times
i'm playing as a warrior on hard, i think i used aveline 1 time but that was just because there was no one else really early in the game.

playing as a tank in this game is completely pointless because of the ridic cooldown on taunt, the ridic threat your mage(s) will generate, and those stupid waves of enemies that just spawn from nowhere and ruin any kind of strategy you may have. as far as i can tell, the point of combat in DA2, aside from the gay-ass "boss" fights like the rock golem and high dragon which are more about how much patience you have than anything else, is DPS, DPS, and more DPS, and as a tank, your damage output will be on a level comparable to a healer in WoW, i.e. REALLY LOW

[Lumikki]

Don't know why people say player tank isn't needed. I don't think any class is needed. I think OP point is more like he can't play tank good enough as controling aggro.

[Morocius]

papality wrote...

i played through as rogue on normal, probably used aveline 3 times
i'm playing as a warrior on hard, i think i used aveline 1 time but that was just because there was no one else really early in the game.

playing as a tank in this game is completely pointless because of the ridic cooldown on taunt, the ridic threat your mage(s) will generate, and those stupid waves of enemies that just spawn from nowhere and ruin any kind of strategy you may have. as far as i can tell, the point of combat in DA2, aside from the gay-ass "boss" fights like the rock golem and high dragon which are more about how much patience you have than anything else, is DPS, DPS, and more DPS, and as a tank, your damage output will be on a level comparable to a healer in WoW, i.e. REALLY LOW

It's not pointless, try a more offensive tanking build and ditch all defensive sustainables for about (obligatory made up number incomming) 95% of the time.

[Roxlimn]

If your damage output in DA2 is really low, you're playing it wrong. On Normal, a 1h Fighter Hawke specced right can kill a bunch of 3 or 4 Normals in one Assault/Battery.

[Jman5]

papality wrote...

i played through as rogue on normal, probably used aveline 3 times
i'm playing as a warrior on hard, i think i used aveline 1 time but that was just because there was no one else really early in the game.

playing as a tank in this game is completely pointless because of the ridic cooldown on taunt, the ridic threat your mage(s) will generate, and those stupid waves of enemies that just spawn from nowhere and ruin any kind of strategy you may have. as far as i can tell, the point of combat in DA2, aside from the gay-ass "boss" fights like the rock golem and high dragon which are more about how much patience you have than anything else, is DPS, DPS, and more DPS, and as a tank, your damage output will be on a level comparable to a healer in WoW, i.e. REALLY LOW

You're playing your group like it's a mini-WoW Raid. Instead of wasting your tank's skill and attributes to make him 90% defensive, try giving him some bite. Scatter and Assault are excellent damage spells. Vanguard is a must for any Warrior. Disabling Shield Defense is a must unless you need it (boss fights). I'm guessing you have a million sustainables running on Aveline, and you've overpumped constitution. You're probably also using Anders as a full-on Healbot and left with 2 glass cannons doing all of the dps.

The key to doing well in this game is giving each character depth with regard to their talent choices. Giving Varric escape/de-agro abilities like evade and Goad. Using Mindblast or other disablers when your mage is getting swarmed.

[Ndutz]

Well after finishing my playthrough as a dps warrior (both as a burst damage, and auto attack berserker) i do want to try my hands on being a deffensive warrior.So i get what the op is saying.

Aveline can actually be build into a decent dpser. Go for vanguard tree and utilise scatter and assault againts disoriented foes (sadly disorient is pretty rare compared to brittle or stagger). Her Guardian tree is still useful regardless wether she is dps or tank. Keep bodyguard on Anders (who should be in vengeance mode for matyr and haste cooldown) and knockback resistance is always nice. Immovable is uselesss.

Make hawke a templar, everyone knows silence effect is not only limited to mages. Holy smite can be upgraded for threat management and it has a huge radius. 50% magic resistance is great if you dont relly on cleave.

[Ndutz]

The frustating thing is if you re on console like me Goad and Amirtice is bugged. So is rally. As it isnow as much as i want to try playing a tank hawke it jsut seems sub optimal.

[Sordel]

I dislike playing Hawke tanks because they always seem to be severely stamina-starved. If I automate my Hawke so that she switches to her sustainables only once her health or stamina drops then she works okay as a tanking bot, but I wouldn't want to play her on autoattack and I'd rather use tactics than change her manually.

For this reason, I'm happier using Aveline or Fenris to tank as warrior, or I have a run where Isabella does the tanking and I run without a warrior. Having a high-mitigation warrior tanks is bad for all sorts of reasons ... not least the fact that you do barely any damage at all once the stamina has drained away.

[papality]

Jman5 wrote...

papality wrote...

i played through as rogue on normal, probably used aveline 3 times
i'm playing as a warrior on hard, i think i used aveline 1 time but that was just because there was no one else really early in the game.

playing as a tank in this game is completely pointless because of the ridic cooldown on taunt, the ridic threat your mage(s) will generate, and those stupid waves of enemies that just spawn from nowhere and ruin any kind of strategy you may have. as far as i can tell, the point of combat in DA2, aside from the gay-ass "boss" fights like the rock golem and high dragon which are more about how much patience you have than anything else, is DPS, DPS, and more DPS, and as a tank, your damage output will be on a level comparable to a healer in WoW, i.e. REALLY LOW

You're playing your group like it's a mini-WoW Raid. Instead of wasting your tank's skill and attributes to make him 90% defensive, try giving him some bite. Scatter and Assault are excellent damage spells. Vanguard is a must for any Warrior. Disabling Shield Defense is a must unless you need it (boss fights). I'm guessing you have a million sustainables running on Aveline, and you've overpumped constitution. You're probably also using Anders as a full-on Healbot and left with 2 glass cannons doing all of the dps.

The key to doing well in this game is giving each character depth with regard to their talent choices. Giving Varric escape/de-agro abilities like evade and Goad. Using Mindblast or other disablers when your mage is getting swarmed.

but why would i play like that when its no fun?  i dont want to sit there holding aggro and throwing out assault every once in a while the mages kill everything, i want to be killing

[Jman5]

papality wrote...

Jman5 wrote...

papality wrote...

i played through as rogue on normal, probably used aveline 3 times
i'm playing as a warrior on hard, i think i used aveline 1 time but that was just because there was no one else really early in the game.

playing as a tank in this game is completely pointless because of the ridic cooldown on taunt, the ridic threat your mage(s) will generate, and those stupid waves of enemies that just spawn from nowhere and ruin any kind of strategy you may have. as far as i can tell, the point of combat in DA2, aside from the gay-ass "boss" fights like the rock golem and high dragon which are more about how much patience you have than anything else, is DPS, DPS, and more DPS, and as a tank, your damage output will be on a level comparable to a healer in WoW, i.e. REALLY LOW

You're playing your group like it's a mini-WoW Raid. Instead of wasting your tank's skill and attributes to make him 90% defensive, try giving him some bite. Scatter and Assault are excellent damage spells. Vanguard is a must for any Warrior. Disabling Shield Defense is a must unless you need it (boss fights). I'm guessing you have a million sustainables running on Aveline, and you've overpumped constitution. You're probably also using Anders as a full-on Healbot and left with 2 glass cannons doing all of the dps.

The key to doing well in this game is giving each character depth with regard to their talent choices. Giving Varric escape/de-agro abilities like evade and Goad. Using Mindblast or other disablers when your mage is getting swarmed.

but why would i play like that when its no fun?  i dont want to sit there holding aggro and throwing out assault every once in a while the mages kill everything, i want to be killing

I think you misunderstand me. I'm telling you not to make your Sword and Shield just sit there holding agro. You should build it to be able to kill things with your Sword and Shield just like you can with a 2-hander. I mean damage-wise the 2-hander skills Mighty Blow and Scythe are pretty much on par with the SnS Assault and Scatter. And you would have to search pretty far to find someone who thinks 2-hander skills are weak. The only real difference is that 2h is probably the easiest class to play and has sexier attack animations.

Obviously if you compare Aveline to Fenris, she will be 2nd in DPS. However that's only because Aveline's Guardian skill tree is almost exclusively defensive while Fenris has some of the best offensive abilities from all three specialist trees. Again, this isn't to say Aveline is a bad DPSer, I'm just saying Fenris has it easier in this regard.

The real trick is to compare SnS Hawke with 2-hander Hawke. Assuming you don't have a crummy build, they are very close to one another except SnS Hawke has much better survivability.

[Party Fowl]

dchsknight is the only one who sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I played as sword and board hawk after my first failed playthrough with a 2h warrior. My second playthrough on hard with the S&S Hawke was a much more enjoyable experience. Dps Hawke rips aggro and a melee dps hawke soaks up AoE damage, especially on stupid bosses like the one at the end of Act 1. S&S or any tank spec for Hawke is an effective use for Hawke. There's a lot of awesome armor sets that Hawke and only Hawke can use that are particularly useful when tanking. I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that you can upgrade the Bravery sustained talent for 50% threat generation but this applies to any warrior character and definitely worth the extra points in Warmonger regardless of which character you decide to be your meatshield. I think success in any situation tank or no tank is completely dictated by the amount of effort the player puts into crowd control. Having mages with Horror, Petrify, and Arcane Prison will more directly influence your team's survival chances rather than whether or not your tank can keep aggro.