28 réponses à ce sujet

[arolas6622]

 anyway to get em both without alister leaving?

[thedanishboy]

nope i dont think so alistair realy realy hates loghain

[Shuma22]

I don't think so, but if there was a way, you would have to have Alistair at 100% approval and rank 4 in persuassion.

[Teknylanis]

I had 100% approval and Persuasion 4. Doesn't work. What does work, so I hear(haven't tried it), is during the quest to find his sister, when he leaves her house, you have to tell him that everybody is just looking out for themselves. I guess thats whats meant by hardening his personality.

[Knox1776]

I was wondering this too. I loaded about six save games last night at the Landsmeet, and could not find a way.

[Nhani]

I was given the impression that Loghain essentially is your Alistair replacement if you choose to go that way - more or less letting you swap your Sword and Shield Templar for a Sword and Shield Champion.

Of course, the fact that Loghain is voiced by none other than Simon Templeman makes it an oh so tempting offer sometimes..

[GmanFresh]

no. one or the other

[tkaz85]

Given how that entire sequence played out, I believe that Loghain makes a MUCH better Grey Warden than Alastair. He has a certain pragmatism that Alastair simply lacks.

[Majspuffen]

tkaz85 wrote...

Given how that entire sequence played out, I believe that Loghain makes a MUCH better Grey Warden than Alastair. He has a certain pragmatism that Alastair simply lacks.

Perhaps, but leaving the king and his armies to die, poisoning the arl, taking part of slavery etc... I hate him almost as much as Alistair does.

[Rattleface]

Majspuffen wrote...

tkaz85 wrote...

Given how that entire sequence played out, I believe that Loghain makes a MUCH better Grey Warden than Alastair. He has a certain pragmatism that Alastair simply lacks.

Perhaps, but leaving the king and his armies to die, poisoning the arl, taking part of slavery etc... I hate him almost as much as Alistair does.

Bah, I don't see what's so wrong about giving the elves in the alienage up to slavery.  Why not?  What they would do against the Blight? They already started an uprising, AND they're already in a walled off slum that's akin to slavery as is.
I think he did the right thing with giving them to the Tevinters, lols.

[Despzh0r]

Majspuffen wrote...

Perhaps, but leaving the king and his armies to die, poisoning the arl, taking part of slavery etc... I hate him almost as much as Alistair.

Yeah, me too.

[Stephenoflight]

Arf I was trying to improve relations with Alister and persuasion for Loghain able to choose him to give the final blow to the dragon at the end but it's seem to be useless. Too bad.
With my human noble warrior I have (now) 3 ends :
1) have him to make a demonic child
2) let it make die its legitimate king (the last of the royal lineage)
3) sacrifice himself (as he believes to be the last of his own lineage) and with probably an unfinished game.

Rha, for his role the third option is the best and it's a bit sad.

[Gill Kaiser]

Do we ever find out who wore the pants in the Loghain/Arl Howe partnership? If Howe was poisoning Loghain's mind, I'm more inclined to let him redeem himself. If Loghain was using Howe for his own ends and allowing the crazy **** Howe did, then Loghain's getting decapitated by my noblewoman.

[The Angry One]

Rattleface wrote...

Bah, I don't see what's so wrong about giving the elves in the alienage up to slavery.  Why not?  What they would do against the Blight? They already started an uprising, AND they're already in a walled off slum that's akin to slavery as is.
I think he did the right thing with giving them to the Tevinters, lols.

Yeah, nothing like selling a group of people to the nation who everyone blames for the Blight and looking like a common crook and slaver in the eyes of the people.

[Rattleface]

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...

Bah, I don't see what's so wrong about giving the elves in the alienage up to slavery.  Why not?  What they would do against the Blight? They already started an uprising, AND they're already in a walled off slum that's akin to slavery as is.
I think he did the right thing with giving them to the Tevinters, lols.

Yeah, nothing like selling a group of people to the nation who everyone blames for the Blight and looking like a common crook and slaver in the eyes of the people.

I still don't see what's so redeeming about the elves in the alienage to NOT give them to the Tevinters.  Besides, a few enslaved elves won't start another blight lols.

[ThomasRipley]

After seeing Loghain kill the archdemon I can feel nothing but sympathy for the guy. Of course he did plenty of wrong things but he didn't do them for his own benefit, he did it to protect his country from Orlais(he sacrificed the king because he was allowing Orlais Wardens and Knights to come in huge numbers), and at the same time trying to ensure the nation would stay united against the blight(by poisoning Arl Eamon, his main opponent).



Of course he didn't know that you actually need the Grey Wardens to end the blight, they are not just an army, but after all it's a big secret you discover only at the end yourself.



Anyway in the end I think he really redeemed himself and I'm happy that I chose to let him die as a hero.

[The Angry One]

Rattleface wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...

Bah, I don't see what's so wrong about giving the elves in the alienage up to slavery.  Why not?  What they would do against the Blight? They already started an uprising, AND they're already in a walled off slum that's akin to slavery as is.
I think he did the right thing with giving them to the Tevinters, lols.

Yeah, nothing like selling a group of people to the nation who everyone blames for the Blight and looking like a common crook and slaver in the eyes of the people.

I still don't see what's so redeeming about the elves in the alienage to NOT give them to the Tevinters.  Besides, a few enslaved elves won't start another blight lols.

Let's see... being a slaver, strike 1.
Dealing with a nation that once ruled over yours (this from a guy who's all "WAT WE WON'T DEAL WITH ORLAIS WTF WTF TREASON"), strike 2.
Dealing with the nation blamed for the Blight, strike 3.
Getting rid of Denerim's source of cheap labour, strike 4.

LOGHAIN IS OUT.

[Poubo]

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...

Bah, I don't see what's so wrong about giving the elves in the alienage up to slavery.  Why not?  What they would do against the Blight? They already started an uprising, AND they're already in a walled off slum that's akin to slavery as is.
I think he did the right thing with giving them to the Tevinters, lols.

Yeah, nothing like selling a group of people to the nation who everyone blames for the Blight and looking like a common crook and slaver in the eyes of the people.

I still don't see what's so redeeming about the elves in the alienage to NOT give them to the Tevinters.  Besides, a few enslaved elves won't start another blight lols.

Let's see... being a slaver, strike 1.
Dealing with a nation that once ruled over yours (this from a guy who's all "WAT WE WON'T DEAL WITH ORLAIS WTF WTF TREASON"), strike 2.
Dealing with the nation blamed for the Blight, strike 3.
Getting rid of Denerim's source of cheap labour, strike 4.

LOGHAIN IS OUT.

you again? do we have to dance again? 

[Rattleface]

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...

Bah, I don't see what's so wrong about giving the elves in the alienage up to slavery.  Why not?  What they would do against the Blight? They already started an uprising, AND they're already in a walled off slum that's akin to slavery as is.
I think he did the right thing with giving them to the Tevinters, lols.

Yeah, nothing like selling a group of people to the nation who everyone blames for the Blight and looking like a common crook and slaver in the eyes of the people.

I still don't see what's so redeeming about the elves in the alienage to NOT give them to the Tevinters.  Besides, a few enslaved elves won't start another blight lols.

Let's see... being a slaver, strike 1.
Dealing with a nation that once ruled over yours (this from a guy who's all "WAT WE WON'T DEAL WITH ORLAIS WTF WTF TREASON"), strike 2.
Dealing with the nation blamed for the Blight, strike 3.
Getting rid of Denerim's source of cheap labour, strike 4.

LOGHAIN IS OUT.

Well, the cheap labour thing is easily refutable.

Also, the -deal- he made with Tevinter was small.  If he had half their nation come and enslave all the commoners and lowlies, yeah, he'd be a bad sob, but there was only a few Tevinters and only elves taken away.  Elves are hardly part of Ferelden society and they had already started an uprising.  Besides, they're xenophobic little pricks.

The Tevinters are an enemy nation, yeah, but my guess is he did it so they wouldn't take advantage of the crisis in Ferelden and invade afterwards or even before the battle.
A few enslaved elves is easily worth preventing that imo.

Loghain seems like such a bad dude up to the Landsmeet, but then you find out he had a decent reason for everything.  Except siding with Howe... Howe had no depth anyways so it's hard to speculate why he got so cozy with him.

[mousestalker]

I went ahead and ganked Loghain. In the real world, he would never be trustworthy as a Grey warden. He turned on his own son-in-law and daughter. He allegedly did it because of patriotism, but that patriotism also ran to promoting enslaving his own people.

For a great general he too readily threw away tactical tools. For a great general he had lousy intelligence (military intelligence, not brain smarts). As a king-substitute, it's not only that he is a tyrant, he is an ineffective tyrant. He's Mussolini in 1945, not Mussolini in 1930.

He's over confident, paranoid and delusional. He doesn't accept criticism well and does not play well with others. In the real world, I'd be afraid he'd scarper before he could become dragon fodder, leaving the rest of the Grey Wardens holding the bag.

Alistair is at least willing to learn. And even if Morrigan has an elder god hybrid baby, that buys time to hunt her and her spawn down. Hunting her down has the added benefit of giving the templars a hobby and getting the Chantry out of the new monarchs' hair.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Majspuffen wrote...

tkaz85 wrote...

Given how that entire sequence played out, I believe that Loghain makes a MUCH better Grey Warden than Alastair. He has a certain pragmatism that Alastair simply lacks.

Perhaps, but leaving the king and his armies to die, poisoning the arl, taking part of slavery etc... I hate him almost as much as Alistair does.

Doing whatever it takes to achieve his goals... sounds like a good grey warden to me. Much better than the Alastair who seems to perpetually have a rod jammed up his ass.

[Nyaore]

mousestalker wrote...

I went ahead and ganked Loghain. In the real world, he would never be trustworthy as a Grey warden. He turned on his own son-in-law and daughter. He allegedly did it because of patriotism, but that patriotism also ran to promoting enslaving his own people.

For a great general he too readily threw away tactical tools. For a great general he had lousy intelligence (military intelligence, not brain smarts). As a king-substitute, it's not only that he is a tyrant, he is an ineffective tyrant. He's Mussolini in 1945, not Mussolini in 1930.

He's over confident, paranoid and delusional. He doesn't accept criticism well and does not play well with others. In the real world, I'd be afraid he'd scarper before he could become dragon fodder, leaving the rest of the Grey Wardens holding the bag.

Alistair is at least willing to learn. And even if Morrigan has an elder god hybrid baby, that buys time to hunt her and her spawn down. Hunting her down has the added benefit of giving the templars a hobby and getting the Chantry out of the new monarchs' hair.

I have to agree honestly. Throughout the game I found it hard to imagine that the Loghain we were seeing was the same tactical genuis he was made out of be in the stories we hear about him. He kept on making rather simple mistakes that no militiary strategist worth their salt would ever dream of making, and for what? To satisfy his own delusions? Orlais might have been a threat, yes, but Loghain's actions actually made Fereleden a better target to attack when you truly think about it. A divided house cannot stand, and with the majority of Ferelden's nobility caught up in the mess he created nobody would have been able to do anything if Orlais truly DID invade. Which is further compounded by the amount of soldiers he threw away at Ostagar for his own grudge, you need all able bodied soldiers available if there truly was going to be an invasion, and the fact that he allowed an immense horde of Darkspawn to march unchallenged throughout his beloved countryside. He might have not believed it was a true Blight, fair enough given what I've heard from the books, but there is NO excuse for ignoring such a massive armed force that's tearing up throught the heart of your countryside. You always should take care of your internal threats first, not worry over a country that might or might not even be inclined to try and go through the hassle of reconquering you once more.

Frankly I think that some time before the start of the game timeline Loghain simply snapped, and he allowed himself to give into his own paranoia. It explains why such a reputed 'genuis' made such infentile mistakes.

Modifié par Nyaore, 16 novembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[tkaz85]

I was actually going to say that having the Templars hunt Morrigan down is a good way to get rid of the Templars

[Ariella]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Majspuffen wrote...

tkaz85 wrote...

Given how that entire sequence played out, I believe that Loghain makes a MUCH better Grey Warden than Alastair. He has a certain pragmatism that Alastair simply lacks.

Perhaps, but leaving the king and his armies to die, poisoning the arl, taking part of slavery etc... I hate him almost as much as Alistair does.

Doing whatever it takes to achieve his goals... sounds like a good grey warden to me. Much better than the Alastair who seems to perpetually have a rod jammed up his ass.

Actually, Loghain as a leader sucks. Good leaders take responsibilty for the actions of those who serve under them. Loghain's crap about "Howe was an adult, I'm not responsible for what he did..." goes far to prove how lousy a king he'd actually be. As for the slavery, it's a slippery slope. First of all, he's willing to violate not only the LAW but the Prophet Andreste's edict freeing elves. If he's willing to do that, what other laws and freedoms would he be willing to trample given time.

His paranoia is his undoing.... Personally, I just wish there was a way to gank Aonora while I was at it. I've been thinking up various ways of getting rid of her, though my favorite is dropping her in the deep roads with a butter knife and one of her ball gowns. That or throwing her into the Dead Trenches.... Let her become a brood mother.

[Ashimmu]

Rattleface wrote...

Also, the -deal- he made with Tevinter was small.  If he had half their nation come and enslave all the commoners and lowlies, yeah, he'd be a bad sob, but there was only a few Tevinters and only elves taken away.  Elves are hardly part of Ferelden society and they had already started an uprising.  Besides, they're xenophobic little pricks.

Wait wait wait...elves, xenophobic? ELVES? Really? Are we playing the same game?