55 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Grace was an abomination, of course she refused to side with you.

[Annarl]

ExiledMimic wrote...

You can play Origins and pick who you romance, who you recruit, how your face the end of the Archdemon, who rules the land and how your party thinks of you. In the end the game ends the exact same way. The difference is you feel like you affected those things. In DA2 you don't feel like you changed anything no matter what you did. And that quest right there is one of 3 blatant examples of how you are pushed without question to a specific ending without so much as a flavor to your choices made.

I'd done the same as the OP. I'd spoken for mages, worked for them, striven for them, busted my butt time and again to get them just 1 more sliver of humanity and human well being. Because I killed an Abomination and a murderer I got lumped into Meredeth's camp, despite helping the third mage gain some sort of peace before taking him back without incident. It was a blatant shove into the direction they wanted and was obviously beneath the standards Bioware is capable of. I honestly think this game needed another 6 months to fix all of Act 3. If it weren't for these horrifying issues, the game would be great. Instead it's too linear to be a game involving choice to begin with. If what I do doesn't matter, then don't give me the choice and let me follow the story and enjoy cutscenes more.

I agree.  In DA2 I have this feeling that Kirkwall would be better off without Hawke or at the very least, nothing Hawke does really matters.  Not the feeling I want to walk away from an RPG with.

[TJPags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grace was an abomination, of course she refused to side with you.

Well, she didn't even hear me out.

However, putting her aside, why did everyone ELSE attack me?

[RedWulfi]

I noticed this too. I went to find the mages and help them and they kept on attacking me ;o;

[Darth Obvious]

 

BiowarEA wrote...
 I guess meaningful choices is just another cumbersome RPG element that got streamlined out of DA2.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Modifié par Darth Obvious, 13 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[MerchantGOL]

[quote]BiowarEA wrote...

[quote]rumination888 wrote...


So you're faced with three options, neither of which are really good and one apparently evil:
-- Help Zathrian and kill the werewolves, killing a benevolent spirit along with innocent humans and dalish that have been cursed with the werewolf curse;
-- Help the werewolves and the Lady of the Forest, killing all Dalish and Zathrian in the process as revenge for what "the elves did" to many innocents;
-- Convince Zathrian to lift the curse. He dies and the Lady is set free but the werewolves revert back to normal, and you set free a bunch of criminals in the process;

So as you can see, Bioware did make some things right in DA:O.

[/quote] The Werewolves stillw idn up dead in the Epilouge were u help them so the choice is still menaingless

[focoe]

so has anyone tried killing grace in act 2? does this effect act 3? if she isnt in charge of this group do they still attack u anyways?

[whitless256]

TJPags wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grace was an abomination, of course she refused to side with you.

Well, she didn't even hear me out.

However, putting her aside, why did everyone ELSE attack me?

I believe I already gave you my theory on that back at the bottom of the first page.  But I bet you didn't read it.   I'm slightly upset so I'm going to summon some demons and turn into an abomination now.

In all seriousness, though, a brief summation.  Grace was the leader of this group and no doubt she poisoned her followers against you, given the bitterness that's been brewing in her for about six years or so.  If the leader you were relying on said, "don't trust the Champion, look at what he did to me," it's quite likely that you won't trust the Champion.  The Champion is nothing to you, while Grace is someone you trust.  Makes perfect sense to me.

And I'm fairly sure the reason the Templars join her in attacking you at the end is more due to blood magic than free will. 

[Ari87]

whitless256 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grace was an abomination, of course she refused to side with you.

Well, she didn't even hear me out.

However, putting her aside, why did everyone ELSE attack me?

I believe I already gave you my theory on that back at the bottom of the first page.  But I bet you didn't read it.   I'm slightly upset so I'm going to summon some demons and turn into an abomination now.

In all seriousness, though, a brief summation.  Grace was the leader of this group and no doubt she poisoned her followers against you, given the bitterness that's been brewing in her for about six years or so.  If the leader you were relying on said, "don't trust the Champion, look at what he did to me," it's quite likely that you won't trust the Champion.  The Champion is nothing to you, while Grace is someone you trust.  Makes perfect sense to me.

And I'm fairly sure the reason the Templars join her in attacking you at the end is more due to blood magic than free will. 

All of which could have been explained at one point so the events that do take place make sense. But it WASN'T explained. Your hypothesis in this is as good as anyones without direct proof. Might just as well have been the Maker, come to punish Hawke for looking too damn sexy.

[keiran_helcyan]

I'm pretty sure Hawke could have been replaced with a lobotomized ogre who kills anyone that attacks him/her first and the story would have played out the exact same

[Piecake]

You can avoid the Merrill/Dalish battle and the dalish/werewolf confrontation battle. There might be a few others.

[AtreiyaN7]

I believe she wanted to kill you because you, oh, killed her husband/lover? However grateful she seemed three years ago, I'm going with the high likely scenario that she wanted revenge and was biding her time until she could get to you. That and/or Meredith cracking down on you pushed her over the edge.

In any case, on my last quest with Merrill involving the eluvian I made a choice that resulted in every elf attacking me. I late reloaded and tried something else. Guess what, I got a totally peaceful resolution without being attacked at all. There are peaceful resolutons for some things, but not for all of them.

[Urazz]

Gamejudge wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Face it, Kirkwall is rampant with blood mages and abominations. Even if you do side with the mages. Now, in the mages defense, they were opressed MUCH worse than in Ferelden, and they felt they had no choice but to resort to blood magic to survive.

As for choices, you choose Mages or Templars and that makes a difference in the story. Either way, the sheer number of blood mages is NOT your choice, nor should it be. What other characters do is not your choice. Your choice is to support the mages despite knowing damn well they are evil to the core in Kirkwall (and have to fight them too, since the demons want chaos, not peaceful coexistance), or else support the Templars and wipe out the evil mages for the good of Thedas.

But the thing I distinctly remember from lore in origins is that blood magic is NOT common by any stretch of the imagination. It is not simply cutting your wrist and using magic. It's a complicated process that takes time and often years to learn, so how everyone knows blood magic is completely beyond me.

I think they tweaked it so you can use blood to enhance your magic but the more complicated blood magic require time to learn.

[Pyrate_d]

If you kill grace when you first meet her, can you resolve this quest peacefully? That would surprise me, and would be silly anyway

You can avoid killing all the Dalish, but the choice to do so is not clear, so plenty of people just assumed that you can't. It's not a good thing for Bioware to have two peaceful options, but have one lead to violence. All it does is encourage reloading after every decision

[whitless256]

Ari87 wrote...

whitless256 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grace was an abomination, of course she refused to side with you.

Well, she didn't even hear me out.

However, putting her aside, why did everyone ELSE attack me?

I believe I already gave you my theory on that back at the bottom of the first page.  But I bet you didn't read it.   I'm slightly upset so I'm going to summon some demons and turn into an abomination now.

In all seriousness, though, a brief summation.  Grace was the leader of this group and no doubt she poisoned her followers against you, given the bitterness that's been brewing in her for about six years or so.  If the leader you were relying on said, "don't trust the Champion, look at what he did to me," it's quite likely that you won't trust the Champion.  The Champion is nothing to you, while Grace is someone you trust.  Makes perfect sense to me.

And I'm fairly sure the reason the Templars join her in attacking you at the end is more due to blood magic than free will. 

All of which could have been explained at one point so the events that do take place make sense. But it WASN'T explained. Your hypothesis in this is as good as anyones without direct proof. Might just as well have been the Maker, come to punish Hawke for looking too damn sexy.

Who was going to explain it to you exactly?  Sometimes I like it when a game doesn't explain everything for me like I'm dense, but rather expects me to piece things together based on the evidence.  Did you ever go to the Gallows in Act 2 and speak with her?  She basically spews bile at you about how awful you are.  And that's years before the events in Act 3, giving her many many years to stew and allow other things, such as the increasing stresses between mage and templar, to drive her over the edge.

Do we really need it explained to us why Grace would turn people against us?  We know she hates us.  The proof of that IS clear in the game.  Is it that much of a leap to believe she would tell other people why she hates us?

[Amainville]

Pyrate_d wrote...

If you kill grace when you first meet her, can you resolve this quest peacefully? That would surprise me, and would be silly anyway

I would think that it would end up being the same, only it would be a generic mage or possibly Alain, and Thrask might not be so happy with you anyway.

[Thor Rand Al]

rumination888 wrote...

BiowarEA wrote...
So you're faced with three options, neither of which are really good and one apparently evil:
-- Help Zathrian and kill the werewolves, killing a benevolent spirit along with innocent humans and dalish that have been cursed with the werewolf curse;
-- Help the werewolves and the Lady of the Forest, killing all Dalish and Zathrian in the process as revenge for what "the elves did" to many innocents;
-- Convince Zathrian to lift the curse. He dies and the Lady is set free but the werewolves revert back to normal, and you set free a bunch of criminals in the process;

So as you can see, Bioware did make some things right in DA:O.

And you're faced with two options when dealing with the apostate mage:
-- Kill her.
-- Let her go

You chose to let her go. The ramifications of that action 7 years later was something out of your control. And so you, like many people in this thread, confuse choice with control.

Got to quote this because rumination is right.  You chose to let her live, she chose to turn to bloodmagic for whatever reasons, or she might of already been turned that way when u let her live.  Either way she choose bloodmagic. the choice was made when u let her live, does this mean in future plays that she dies instead, depends on the person playin.  But the choice was made by lettin her live, it wasn't forced.  You weren't forced to let her live, u choose to let her live.

The game was showing us 2 sides of what happens if magic isn't taken care of porperly n how control happy some people take their positions.  You got mages turnin into bloodmages because their being threatened by a power hungry Templar who'd love to eradicate all mages if she had her way.  This was about control n power.  She wanted control n power, she wanted it all.  Heck if u watch her face at the end of act 2 when u defeat the Arishok she's pissed cause she's not the one that got to kill him, she's pist because of the control this gives the player, the fame n power.  This game's about one woman's physcotic gain to power n eradicatin magic verses a lot of mages who never turned to bloodmagic n a lot of mages who turned to that because of her actions.  But that's my opinion.  Thats what I took from the game. 

[TJPags]

whitless256 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grace was an abomination, of course she refused to side with you.

Well, she didn't even hear me out.

However, putting her aside, why did everyone ELSE attack me?

I believe I already gave you my theory on that back at the bottom of the first page.  But I bet you didn't read it.   I'm slightly upset so I'm going to summon some demons and turn into an abomination now.

In all seriousness, though, a brief summation.  Grace was the leader of this group and no doubt she poisoned her followers against you, given the bitterness that's been brewing in her for about six years or so.  If the leader you were relying on said, "don't trust the Champion, look at what he did to me," it's quite likely that you won't trust the Champion.  The Champion is nothing to you, while Grace is someone you trust.  Makes perfect sense to me.

And I'm fairly sure the reason the Templars join her in attacking you at the end is more due to blood magic than free will. 

Sorry, did not see your post.    Please, no more abominations, if you don't mind.  I'm overstocked right now.  Maybe next week? 

However, yes, I can agree with that.  The problem is that, in the first group, I was sent by Orsino - nobody talked, just attacked.  In the second group, there was a Templar who knew me - the one I saved years ago - but he just left rather than back me up.  Thrask never even asked how I got there - and then I guess he got killed by Grace.

Yea, I figure everyone attacking me at that point - rather than Grace, who killed one of them - has to be chalked up to the evil blood magic mind control thing.  Still, not sure I like that explanation.  No fault of yours, just seems a little . . convenient.

Even so - Orsino never even asked about what happened, didn't seem bothered.

Was just .  ..a really odd quest.

[whitless256]

Well, when you do approach the first two groups you can hear one of them say "Oh no, it's the Champion! He's working for Meredith!" Which to some desperate people, is reason enough to attack you. For whatever reason, whether my theory is correct or no, they thought you were the enemy. That you were working for a woman who would show them no mercy were she to find out what they were doing. So better to take your chances at killing the Champion rather than talk and take the risk that he might report back. After all, even if the Champion says he won't turn you in, can you trust him?

I think the thing to remember is these are terrified, desperate people and very unlikely to think rationally.

[Pyrate_d]

you're really stretching to make it work, which is not a good sign

[TJPags]

whitless256 wrote...

Well, when you do approach the first two groups you can hear one of them say "Oh no, it's the Champion! He's working for Meredith!" Which to some desperate people, is reason enough to attack you. For whatever reason, whether my theory is correct or no, they thought you were the enemy. That you were working for a woman who would show them no mercy were she to find out what they were doing. So better to take your chances at killing the Champion rather than talk and take the risk that he might report back. After all, even if the Champion says he won't turn you in, can you trust him?

I think the thing to remember is these are terrified, desperate people and very unlikely to think rationally.

True, and I had previously "worked" for Meredith, finding those 3 runaways.

But while 2 attacked me and I killed them, the kid who just wanted to get laid, I let him get laid, then sent him back to the Tower.  I'd also helped mages before - maybe not as much as Grace would have liked, though.

[Lauretha_L]

I concur - I had the same complaint. Some of the side quests are great, can be resolved peacefully and have consequences later on. Little in the main quests is like that. I didn't like DAO; I was elated when I started playing DA2 - the set up was so great! I loved the idea behind this game. I will take a city adventure with lots of intrigue and slowly coming into power over a quest to save the world from generic evil humanoids/foreign invasion/primeval dark forces any day. That's the reason I was so crushed under the weight of my disappointment in act 3, ALL of which was complete crap. You couldn't affect a single thing. Nothing made sense. They cheapened the plot and two great characters - Orsino and Meridith - by what they did to them in the end. I won't go into details in that post, but lets just say it was a disappointment of life so far (as far as crpgs go). I tried to not expect much, I loved it, started to hope, all hope went crushing down. And I was even willing to overlook having to play one of the 3 preset personalities, the dialogue wheel and the lack of free talks with your companions as well as the overwhelming dominance of hack'n'slash over more 'meaningful' ways to resolve quests - like diplomacy (and generally, anything besides fight - think Planescape:Torment here). All because of how promising the plot looked. And then... ;(

[Cajeb]

Yeah I noticed I was almost always forced to fight...and then when I wanted to kill someone in convo I was forced to let them walk away...odd

[Sinvx]

Apparently theres a way to make them surrender. You aren't forced to slaughter them all.

[LegionLG]

Oh my god, this was seriously the most frustrating part of the game when I encountered it the other day. I already began DA2 knowing that I support the freedom of mages and all that (I even imported a save where Fereldan mages were granted their autonomy) and I seriously could not believe any of this was happening. They were like, "Omg it's Hawke," and I was like, "Let me just--" and they were like, "NOPE," and immediately started attacking me. And the vicious cycle began.

By the time I got to the end I was looking so unsatisfied in my chair and I was just like, "Really?" I thought ORIGINS had copious amounts of unnecessary combat, but this just tops that by a long shot.