So, I've finished the game today after about 27-28 hours of play and I can now definitively say that DA:O was better than DA2. That is not to say that DA2 is not a great game. It most certainly is, but it has completely butchered the main element of what made DA:O such a compelling experience: The companions and their characterization.
In origins I spent a huge amount of time in camp simply talking to my companions, and over the course of my ~30 hours of play I actually felt like I'd got to know and care about those characters. I was literally heartbroken when morrigan left me in the end to run off to wherever she went, and the moment in the camp where leliana starts singing her beautiful song is the most vivid gaming memory I have. I very nearly burst out in tears when I heard it the first time.
Skip forward to DA2 (and awakening). This element has now completely disappeared. I can now only talk to my companions when I get a quest that specifically tells me to go talk to them, and they mostly feel like strangers just tagging along. They could be replaced with random mercenaries and you wouldn't really notice it that much.
When your mother die you dont really react emotionally at all either. You pretty much go "Well, that sucks I guess" and move on.
The L.I. Substories are even worse as far as I can tell. I chose Merril as my L.I, and all taht consisted of was basically me telling her she was sweet and pretty a few times, then suddenly she showed up in my house, jumped on me and then moved in. She then got a new armor and that was the last I heard of that untill the very end before the fight with meredith. Even aveline's romance with the guard guy was fleshed out more than that.
Overall I'm just very disappointed with their decision to butcher the main element of DA:O in such a way. The combat is a lot better than DA:O, and the story is also quite interesting, but while I did enjoy the game, I just sat back at the end and felt like something was missing.
Well, with that rant out of the way. Here's hoping that bioware learns from their mistakes and that DA3 will have both great combat and great character interaction.
Companions, or why DA:O was better than DA2.
Débuté par
FeriIuce
, mars 13 2011 01:23
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#2
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 02:35
Piecake
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I have a feeling that the greatly improved party banter was at the expense of being able to freely talk to your companions whenever you want. Looking at things like that, I really can't decide what I would rather have in DA3. Obviously I would want both, but if I had to choose between awesome party banter and being able to talk to my companions whenever I want, I am not sure which one I would pick
#3
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:40
Piecake
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I have a feeling that the greatly improved party banter was at the expense of being able to freely talk to your companions whenever you want. Looking at things like that, I really can't decide what I would rather have in DA3. Obviously I would want both, but if I had to choose between awesome party banter and being able to talk to my companions whenever I want, I am not sure which one I would pick
#4
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:47
FeriIuce
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Party banter was cool, but it always ended up triggering right as I was about to run through a door or enter a shop etc. I probably had 70% of all banter cut off in the middle because I ended up accidentially doing something when it triggered.
#5
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:48
SleepyWerewolf
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I would have to say I agree completely with this. The couple times you run into old characters in the game (like Alistair or Zevran), you really see how shallow your current companions are in comparison to them. My, oh 10 minutes with Zevran was infinitely more memorable than anything I ever did with Fenris.
#6
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:50
graciegrace
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Cast wise, I thought DA2 was better. DA2 is "incomplete" however. Origins had a conclusion because a sequel was never expected. You know they expect to make a DA3, that's why DA2 is less focused and leaves nothing really resolved
#7
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:50
Ozzyfan223
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I much prefer my companions in DA2 than DA:O. I thought most were great, and the romances are much more natural, and enjoyable to experience.
I never felt like they were strangers (except when you first meet them obviously). As the years progress, the attachments to each companion grows and grows. DA:O feels like 'here and now' whereas DA2 is progressive, and the attachment to each character grows as the years go by.
I never felt like they were strangers (except when you first meet them obviously). As the years progress, the attachments to each companion grows and grows. DA:O feels like 'here and now' whereas DA2 is progressive, and the attachment to each character grows as the years go by.
#8
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:51
XX55XX
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The improved party banter is welcomed, but I would prefer putting more formal conversations first.
#9
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:52
Ozzyfan223
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I much prefer my companions in DA2 than DA:O. I thought most were great, and the romances are much more natural, and enjoyable to experience.
I never felt like they were strangers (except when you first meet them obviously). As the years progress, the attachments to each companion grows and grows. DA:O feels like 'here and now' whereas DA2 is progressive, and the attachment to each character grows as the years go by.
I never felt like they were strangers (except when you first meet them obviously). As the years progress, the attachments to each companion grows and grows. DA:O feels like 'here and now' whereas DA2 is progressive, and the attachment to each character grows as the years go by.
#10
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 03:55
Group Theory
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I thought the first Dragon Age had decent enough party banter. I would much rather have the dialog system from Origins back. I really enjoyed being able to talk to my companions at camp. I really want to talk to Merril and find out more about her, but she just tells me that her house is sometimes clean.
#11
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 04:22
Merci357
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I disagree, somewhat. If you have a companion consistently in your party, over the whole game, you'll notice they have a lot of character, as well. There is tons of banter, they have quite often something to say. So, yes, the characters I had in my party did grow on me - Aveline, Varric, Merril.
On the other had, I never had Fenris with me, and he is still a complete stranger, because I had no real opportunity the speak with him. So yes, that's the part I agree - I'd like to talk to my companions (much) more often.
On the other had, I never had Fenris with me, and he is still a complete stranger, because I had no real opportunity the speak with him. So yes, that's the part I agree - I'd like to talk to my companions (much) more often.
#12
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 04:47
XGrlGamerX
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I would definitely choose talking to my companions and being given the opportunity to know them better.. Programming for party banter isn't as hard as people would think. They should be able to provide both in Dragon Age 3. 
#13
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 04:51
MerchantGOL
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DA2 has better companions for one simple reason
The DA2 crew actually interact and tend to like each other, in DA0 they all hated each other at worse, or were annoyed by each other at best [Sten and Shales budding romance an exemption]
Avaline and Isabella go from Being ****es to each other to BFFs
Verric Becomes Merril's big brother practically, The new Companions also have lives that don't revolve around the Main character, You cant go "Here have some whine and change your world views"
The DA2 crew actually interact and tend to like each other, in DA0 they all hated each other at worse, or were annoyed by each other at best [Sten and Shales budding romance an exemption]
Avaline and Isabella go from Being ****es to each other to BFFs
Verric Becomes Merril's big brother practically, The new Companions also have lives that don't revolve around the Main character, You cant go "Here have some whine and change your world views"
#14
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 04:52
berelinde
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Yeah, like the OP, I miss player-initiated dialogue very, very much. We had these wonderful characters and we could not talk to them!
A while ago, somebody at Spellhold Studios asked if party banter could replace dialogue with the PC to illustrate the NPC's character. At the time, I said no, that party banter does give a good portrayal of the character, but nothing can replace the interaction the NPC has with the PC. Yes, for the most part, NPC dialogue does focus on what is important to the NPC, but by allowing the PC to talk to the NPC, it shows that the NPC is interested in the PC, as well.
A while ago, somebody at Spellhold Studios asked if party banter could replace dialogue with the PC to illustrate the NPC's character. At the time, I said no, that party banter does give a good portrayal of the character, but nothing can replace the interaction the NPC has with the PC. Yes, for the most part, NPC dialogue does focus on what is important to the NPC, but by allowing the PC to talk to the NPC, it shows that the NPC is interested in the PC, as well.
#15
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 04:58
TJPags
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I've absolutely got to agree with this.
I liked the concept of companions having homes, rather than standing around the campfire - or my living room. I like the idea of getting a note when someone wants to see you, or having them stop by to talk. My problem is that, besides that, there's nothing.
I can't go to Merril's house and ask her about the mirror, or her friends, or whatever. I can't go chat with Anders about the Warden, or his many escapes, or his cat. I can't go have a beer with Aveline and ask how her marriage is, or how she met Wesley, or why she's no good at actually killing anyone. I can't go ask Isabela where her pants are, or where her alleged room is, or how she got into the whole pirate business in the first place. I can't ask them anything . . .all I can do is wait for them to have some quest, and then discuss that with them, do the quest, and talk about it at the end.
I didn't like that. I didn't feel like I got to know them. They weren't friends - they were a bunch of people who asked me to do things for them, and who I found useful when I needed to go visit the same cave 14 times.
A good idea, but somewhat lacking.
I liked the concept of companions having homes, rather than standing around the campfire - or my living room. I like the idea of getting a note when someone wants to see you, or having them stop by to talk. My problem is that, besides that, there's nothing.
I can't go to Merril's house and ask her about the mirror, or her friends, or whatever. I can't go chat with Anders about the Warden, or his many escapes, or his cat. I can't go have a beer with Aveline and ask how her marriage is, or how she met Wesley, or why she's no good at actually killing anyone. I can't go ask Isabela where her pants are, or where her alleged room is, or how she got into the whole pirate business in the first place. I can't ask them anything . . .all I can do is wait for them to have some quest, and then discuss that with them, do the quest, and talk about it at the end.
I didn't like that. I didn't feel like I got to know them. They weren't friends - they were a bunch of people who asked me to do things for them, and who I found useful when I needed to go visit the same cave 14 times.
A good idea, but somewhat lacking.
#16
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:00
Raltar
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I felt that the writing for the companions was better in DA2 than it was in Origins and Awakening...though, Anders' personality was not recognizable from DAA. He was a completely different character in DA2, but I also felt he was probably the most well written in DA2. The change was certainly for the better.
#17
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:18
KingDan97
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I feel they could both be had at the expense of a longer development time. Dragon Age 2 was put through, start to finish in just 18 months. Increase that by 6 months and I expect we could fix many of the gripes people have with Dragon Age 2(My chief problem was primarily the equalization of spells/potions/items[Ring of X makes it more appealing to equip than one of the 20 or so "Ring"s I had in my inventory]) As it stands, I don't want a whisper of Dragon Age 3 until, at the earliest Mass Effect 3 come out. And at that point, I wanna hear that it's over a year off, by a lot. I don't want Dragon Age 3 in my hands till 3 years from now, at the earliest. Because as with Mass Effect 3, they've got two games of criticisms to find middle ground on, unlike Mass Effect though, Dragon Age has a lot more criticism to go around. Neither crowd is right of course, because this is an RPG, but there are some older tactics which are archaic, or dependant on the story Bioware wants to tell.Piecake wrote...
I have a feeling that the greatly improved party banter was at the expense of being able to freely talk to your companions whenever you want. Looking at things like that, I really can't decide what I would rather have in DA3. Obviously I would want both, but if I had to choose between awesome party banter and being able to talk to my companions whenever I want, I am not sure which one I would pick
All I have is one request, when we get to Dragon Age 4, let me recruit my other three characters. I want the ultimate team, and considering the parallels drawn between the Champion and the Hero of Ferelden, they NEED to meet.
#18
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:22
Heart Scythe
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I agree with the OP. While I loved DA:O and love DA2, I felt like the companion development was a little lacking in DA2. The story is great not as good as DA:O but still good and solid. I love how they made combat speed and techniques quicker and more fluid, but the companion development was what made me play DA:O for so many hours on end and replay the game four or five times over as well as what made me buy the bonus content just to continue the story.
#19
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:31
lx_theo
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Agree with Piecake. Though I really did miss having regular conversations. It was one of the few things that disappointed me so greatly in the game
#20
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:31
Element Zero
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I like each game's approach to characterization.
DAO took place in a much shorter, though not "short", time-span. It featured some awesome characters that felt like real people, just as Bioware's games always do.
DA2, though, brought the advantage of a lengthier timeframe. Watching the NPCs relationships with one another develop was really cool. Walking in on Aveline and Isabela having "girl talk" after years of interaction, or learning Fenris plays cards with Donnic... that's awesome.
I'll agree that a couple of Hawkes' relationships could've gone deeper, but I've only played through once (at nearly 60 hours). There's likely a lot I haven't discovered. I loved Hawke's companions, though, every bit as much as the Warden's, and they felt just as alive.
I'd say the core group to whom I became most attached were Aveline, Isabel, Varric and Fenris. They were, in my opinion, at least as deep as any of DAO's characters, in my opinion. They were made all the more believable by those friendships they built with one another, independent of Hawke. There were instances where we saw this with DAO, but it was a huge part of DA2.
DAO took place in a much shorter, though not "short", time-span. It featured some awesome characters that felt like real people, just as Bioware's games always do.
DA2, though, brought the advantage of a lengthier timeframe. Watching the NPCs relationships with one another develop was really cool. Walking in on Aveline and Isabela having "girl talk" after years of interaction, or learning Fenris plays cards with Donnic... that's awesome.
I'll agree that a couple of Hawkes' relationships could've gone deeper, but I've only played through once (at nearly 60 hours). There's likely a lot I haven't discovered. I loved Hawke's companions, though, every bit as much as the Warden's, and they felt just as alive.
I'd say the core group to whom I became most attached were Aveline, Isabel, Varric and Fenris. They were, in my opinion, at least as deep as any of DAO's characters, in my opinion. They were made all the more believable by those friendships they built with one another, independent of Hawke. There were instances where we saw this with DAO, but it was a huge part of DA2.
#21
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:32
FastimusRex
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I prefer DA:2's character style over Origins. SImply because it makes one feel closer to companions. Not to mention, being with the same characters for up to a decade really adds a sort of element of friendship. In Origins, the person the Warden can actually feel closest to is Alistar, in my opinion. He's a Warden, he's lovable and easy to talk to, romance options aside (sub-point, DA:2 makes the relationships feel real for Hawke, the relationships in Origins didn't feel real for the Warden). In DA:2 you've got Varric, the antithesis of a typical dwarf. Merril, an elf who is so innocent to the world you can't help but empathize with her goals. And Fenris, he makes me want some future content in Tevinter. All the DA:2 companions have far more to offer than the companions in Origins.
However, I will agree the the 'camp' feature, being able to talk with whomever, whenever, was nice; DA:2 has the Hanged Man, and the between-party member banter that goes on while adventuring is rich and entertaining.
Overall, DA:O is a different game than DA:2, both were excellent. I'm 100% glad Bioware took DA:2 the way they did. My one complaint is it was over before it began, it seems. That's just a good thing, though. Was truly entertaining.
Let's just hope DA:2 DLC is rich as well. And DA3 has the option to be pro-Qun and anti-Chantry... or a hero to the Dalish.... regardless, off the topic here... lol
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
All the DA:2 companions have far more to offer than the companions in Origins.However, I will agree the the 'camp' feature, being able to talk with whomever, whenever, was nice; DA:2 has the Hanged Man, and the between-party member banter that goes on while adventuring is rich and entertaining.
Overall, DA:O is a different game than DA:2, both were excellent. I'm 100% glad Bioware took DA:2 the way they did. My one complaint is it was over before it began, it seems. That's just a good thing, though. Was truly entertaining.
Let's just hope DA:2 DLC is rich as well. And DA3 has the option to be pro-Qun and anti-Chantry... or a hero to the Dalish.... regardless, off the topic here... lol
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
#22
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:32
Syndria
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I was just happy the AI got better and the Tactics system was less... clunky. The whole interface was improved.. Like I LOVE how they moved the party frame to the lower left corner rather than up at the top.
I can see what you're saying about all that, but I was easily distracted in Origins with talking to the party and setting up who was getting what and armor and gifts and so forth that I often lost interest because I'd been playing the same save game too long and just.. never finish it.
Single player games can't hold my interest for too long if I'm playing on the same save forever. It's my main problem with things like the Elder Scrolls games. Not linear enough, too much side stuff to distract me. If I can't finish it outright and fulfill my completionist tendencies in a couple days I'll never finish it.
I can see what you're saying about all that, but I was easily distracted in Origins with talking to the party and setting up who was getting what and armor and gifts and so forth that I often lost interest because I'd been playing the same save game too long and just.. never finish it.
Single player games can't hold my interest for too long if I'm playing on the same save forever. It's my main problem with things like the Elder Scrolls games. Not linear enough, too much side stuff to distract me. If I can't finish it outright and fulfill my completionist tendencies in a couple days I'll never finish it.
#23
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:34
NinjaRogue
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I actually felt like I got to know these Characters better. idk why.....
#24
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:42
Jaiyden
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Just finished the game and it was a good, just really missed being able to interact with my companions as much! DA Origins was more entertaining.
#25
Posté 13 mars 2011 - 05:51
Pariah00
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I have to agree totally. I found that having the more cinematic conversations with your companions at their bases in DA2 to be extremely well done, intense, and compelling- in those instances- but once those were done I was left still wanting. The frequency with which you get to interact with your companions was greatly sacrificed for a more cinematic and intense interaction.
No matter how many bottles of wine Fenris throws against the wall in a cutscene I'm not going to feel any closer to him 10 or 15 hours from now if I haven't gotten the opportunity to talk with him since. I had one companion leave me mid game and was totally unaffected. When Morrigan left I was genuinely hurt, angry, and felt betrayed. When Taliesin came for Zev I was so anxious and scared that he would turn on me and I'd have to kill a good friend but when he chose to stay and protect my warden I finally let the breath I had been holding out. Similar things happened in DA2 and I wasn't emotionally concerned with whether my companions chose to stay by my side or not.
That is what bothers be most- that in spite of what an awesome job the writers did with the characters, their personalities, and the intensity of the interactions in the moments that we did have, I still walked away without feeling a real sense of closeness to them because those moments were so scarce. Who thought talking about hair and shoes for 20 minutes could ever have such a powerful effect? I still can't stand shallow Liliana but she still feels very close to me.
TL;DR: Not all conversation needs to be hyper dramatic and compelling cinematically. Even mundane conversation, if it's frequent, can go a long way to fostering a sense of closeness.
No matter how many bottles of wine Fenris throws against the wall in a cutscene I'm not going to feel any closer to him 10 or 15 hours from now if I haven't gotten the opportunity to talk with him since. I had one companion leave me mid game and was totally unaffected. When Morrigan left I was genuinely hurt, angry, and felt betrayed. When Taliesin came for Zev I was so anxious and scared that he would turn on me and I'd have to kill a good friend but when he chose to stay and protect my warden I finally let the breath I had been holding out. Similar things happened in DA2 and I wasn't emotionally concerned with whether my companions chose to stay by my side or not.
That is what bothers be most- that in spite of what an awesome job the writers did with the characters, their personalities, and the intensity of the interactions in the moments that we did have, I still walked away without feeling a real sense of closeness to them because those moments were so scarce. Who thought talking about hair and shoes for 20 minutes could ever have such a powerful effect? I still can't stand shallow Liliana but she still feels very close to me.
TL;DR: Not all conversation needs to be hyper dramatic and compelling cinematically. Even mundane conversation, if it's frequent, can go a long way to fostering a sense of closeness.
