238 réponses à ce sujet

[RosaAquafire]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah yes "consensus" - we have dismissed that claim.

I thought it was a major improvement on its predecessor with its own flaws. Hopefully DA3 improves upon DA2 as opposed to quite literally - as opposed to metaphorically - take a stap back and try to redo all of DAO's flaws.

That being said, I preferred the companions in DA2 as characters though the points about how to divy up the dialogue in this thread are very good ones. A few characters I nailed down pretty quickly, others eluded me the entire game - and that may have contributed.

I totally and completely agree with this.

I sound more bummed out about everything than I am. I really do think this system was an improvement on Origins's, and on Awakening's. I just don't think it's all hammered out yet and I hope they continue to refine it in DA3.

[Arppis]

I would want to talk with my part when I want, I wish they would bring it back. I did enjoy the party members in this game thou. I have nothing bad to say about them.

[Piecake]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah yes "consensus" - we have dismissed that claim.

I thought it was a major improvement on its predecessor with its own flaws. Hopefully DA3 improves upon DA2 as opposed to quite literally - as opposed to metaphorically - take a stap back and try to redo all of DAO's flaws.

That being said, I preferred the companions in DA2 as characters though the points about how to divy up the dialogue in this thread are very good ones. A few characters I nailed down pretty quickly, others eluded me the entire game - and that may have contributed.

I totally and completely agree with this.

I sound more bummed out about everything than I am. I really do think this system was an improvement on Origins's, and on Awakening's. I just don't think it's all hammered out yet and I hope they continue to refine it in DA3.

yea, I actually do like that the companion's character development was done in those companion side quests since that was far more engaging than having it done through conversations.  I also love the banter in DA2 because it was really interesting how your companion's interacting with one another. 

What I missed was the option to casually converse with your companions.  I do not need a lot of that, and not as much as DAO if we get companion quests and party party.  What I do want is the option to talk to my companions whenever I want to ask them about their back story, a bit of lore, a story, or just some completely random topic. 

That is how I think player initiated dialogue should be used.  Companion quests should be character development, party banter should be develop inter-companion interaction and show off their differences and beliefes, and player initiated dialogue should be used to give back story, lore, stories, rumor, or just completely random topics.  When their dialogue is used up, I still want to have the option to go into companion talk mode, not callibration mode because even if it is redundant, it still gives off the feeling that your companions are willing to talk to you instead of being dismissive.

[upsettingshorts]

I don't miss being able to talk to them whenever I want. Maybe some companions might find it amusing to stop and have a chat in the middle of the Deep Roads and others wouldn't - like "Not now Hawke I need to focus" - that I'd be more or less okay with.

But it's not something I ever really did in DAO so I don't find myself looking for that option. I mostly did those discussions in camp, or in a bar, or some other setting where I felt guard-down, drawn out discussion actually made sense. But like others have said YMMV.

That being said, the ability to defer to companions based on the situation (like Anders with mages or Fenris at the Qunari compound) was a significant improvement upon DOA's stand in the back and only occasionally react setup.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 mars 2011 - 08:46 .

[Piecake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't miss being able to talk to them whenever I want. Maybe some companions might find it amusing to stop and have a chat in the middle of the Deep Roads and others wouldn't - like "Not now Hawke I need to focus" - that I'd be more or less okay with.

But it's not something I ever really did in DAO so I don't find myself looking for that option. I mostly did those discussions in camp, or in a bar, or some other setting where I felt guard-down, drawn out discussion actually made sense. But like others have said YMMV.

That being said, the ability to defer to companions based on the situation (like Anders with mages or Fenris at the Qunari compound) was a significant improvement upon DOA's stand in the back and only occasionally react setup.

Oh, I agree that talking to companions in dungeons was odd.  I was referring to being able to freely talk to your companions in your/their home base.  I also think that you should be able to talk to them when you are walking around the city as well just for convenience sake. 

[Parrk]

What I find odd is how much more difficult it is in DA2 to put together a group of three people who get along.  Morrigan never liked Liliana, but she was never a horribly unkind to her as so many of the companions are to each other in this game.

I prefer light-hearted witty banter.  I like Merill, Varric and .....

I like bethany too, but since I'v eplayed the game through, I generally do not ever take companions who I  know will not be there in the end.  that means Anders is out.  I stop using bethany early on as well because she is missing for all of act 3 save the final battle.  

I think the issue is that I need to just not use fenris ever.  He is a gigantic source of megative energy.  I like when Varric makes cracks about him being so emo, but he is way too cruel to merill.  In DA:O, I  can't think of two companions that even really disliked each other, let alone venemous hatred.

I'm missing a 4th.  I've got Varric, Hawke and Merill.  I have my choice of Super-serious, whiney-abusive emo, and awkwarly-off-tempo super -sl@t.

Why can't  there be a 4th normal personality....who doesn't start a world war or disappear for extended periods.

[Piecake]

Parrk wrote...

What I find odd is how much more difficult it is in DA2 to put together a group of three people who get along.  Morrigan never liked Liliana, but she was never a horribly unkind to her as so many of the companions are to each other in this game.

I prefer light-hearted witty banter.  I like Merill, Varric and .....

I like bethany too, but since I'v eplayed the game through, I generally do not ever take companions who I  know will not be there in the end.  that means Anders is out.  I stop using bethany early on as well because she is missing for all of act 3 save the final battle.  

I think the issue is that I need to just not use fenris ever.  He is a gigantic source of megative energy.  I like when Varric makes cracks about him being so emo, but he is way too cruel to merill.  In DA:O, I  can't think of two companions that even really disliked each other, let alone venemous hatred.

I'm missing a 4th.  I've got Varric, Hawke and Merill.  I have my choice of Super-serious, whiney-abusive emo, and awkwarly-off-tempo super -sl@t.

Why can't  there be a 4th normal personality....who doesn't start a world war or disappear for extended periods.

I think your problem is that you have Merrill in your party.  I really like her as a character, and she definitely is light-hearted/goofy/funny/odd, but she is a source of a lot of hate being a blood mage and all. 

I never used her much since I was a rogue, but Isabella would probably fit your requirements. 

[SnakeHelah]

I see the devs are trying to make a point that they cannot give us "unlimited" interactions, dialogues with the companions. They can't invest so much of their resources into that, it's a very good point from their perspective, In Origins I think there was enough dialogue with the companions, I knew deep inside there that I wanted more, but I also understood that it was all the game had to offer and it was enough. I felt somewhat satisfied with it. The thing is, I could just go and talk to my companions whenever I felt like it. On my first playthrough in Origins, I would just talk everything out of a companion once I got them into my party. But later, I understood that kind of mistake as it felt very unnatural how I could get to bed Morrigan in a single gift and approval rampage - this is good for having freedom to interact with other characters whenever you want but it's very open to abuse, so in my second playthrough, I did the whole thing differently, let's say I do one major quest - then go to camp and have one conversation with the companions and handout a few gifts, to balance it out, and then continue on to the main plot/side quests. That way it felt natural somewhat. This kind of thing felt like it disappeared in DA2, the whole approval system was reduced to rival/friendship...It's not a terrible thing. Of course here they have their own lifes, houses etc. so it's like they are independent, unlike in origins where they were clearly at the fate of the Warden. I just think it would be better to sort the very good approval to friendly and the very bad to rival and have a similar system as in Origins - because remember, in origins once you unlocked a new approval, new dialogue would mention it for some characters like you becoming a better friend etc. That was brilliant I think, and so the really alien thing In DA2 about the relations with companions were the romances, Let me say I have not done the others except Merril's so I can only comment on this specific one, but basically you just choose a few flirt options and the next thing you know she's in your house and you two make out. I'm sorry, what? It felt really unnatural to me... of course "romances" being a optional thing at all I know we can't complain as much but it still was way different than in origins, where with Leliana you would have to first select the right dialogue, then the relationship would actually evolve into something and so on. Here it's just very fast, half of the characters I haven't really grown attached to at all - I don't know why is that, it's just that I didn't feel about some of them the way I did in Origins, because the dialogue system was delivered differently. Maybe the only thing I've grown to "care" for was the Hawke family and of course your LI. Those moments.. Bethany/Carver being dragged to the wardens/circle/templars or dying, Mother dying at the... Necromancer... thing. I was angry at those events to say the least, but that's because you get to know your family and all and otherwise I felt lack of that with companions. In Origins I did really care for each of my companion in the end, so I guess you could say they had much more depth there. Meh.

[Wissenschaft]

For me, listening to Fenris and Anders argue over mages was priceless. An Isabela...well, I always knew I'd love that bad bad girl.

I disagree with idea of DA2 was more combat heavy than Origins. In DA2 the sidequests are a lot more developed and often have their own little stories that help complement the main quest. Skipping them to me skips are large part of the story. DA2 isn't about beating some great evil and therefore saving the world but instead focuses on making tough personal choices. Do you except Merrill's use of blood magic, do you agree with Fenris or Anders views on mages, do you agree with the qunari's Qun?

All these choices makes playing as Hawke feel much more personal than the warden did.

[RosaAquafire]

Parrk wrote...

What I find odd is how much more difficult it is in DA2 to put together a group of three people who get along.  Morrigan never liked Liliana, but she was never a horribly unkind to her as so many of the companions are to each other in this game.

I prefer light-hearted witty banter.  I like Merill, Varric and .....

I like bethany too, but since I'v eplayed the game through, I generally do not ever take companions who I  know will not be there in the end.  that means Anders is out.  I stop using bethany early on as well because she is missing for all of act 3 save the final battle.  

I think the issue is that I need to just not use fenris ever.  He is a gigantic source of megative energy.  I like when Varric makes cracks about him being so emo, but he is way too cruel to merill.  In DA:O, I  can't think of two companions that even really disliked each other, let alone venemous hatred.

I'm missing a 4th.  I've got Varric, Hawke and Merill.  I have my choice of Super-serious, whiney-abusive emo, and awkwarly-off-tempo super -sl@t.

Why can't  there be a 4th normal personality....who doesn't start a world war or disappear for extended periods.

Haha, I, on the other hand, loved the way companions would nettle each other and didn't get along. They liked some people in the group, and not others. I adored Fenris and Anders's banters, those boys hate each other so much it's a little intense to watch. And my favourite exchange in the game was probably "They looked at me like I was a monster!" "You ARE a monster." It was more interesting to me than a merry band of like-minded individuals. Of course, DS9 was the best Star Trek imo, so I'm apparently just crazy.

If you've got the DLC, Sebastian gets along well with everyone *I* ever had him in a party with, aside from Anders. And Aveline isn't as serious as you might think. A lot of her banters with Fenris made me laugh.

[Johannicus]

TJPags wrote...

I've absolutely got to agree with this.

I liked the concept of companions having homes, rather than standing around the campfire - or my living room.  I like the idea of getting a note when someone wants to see you, or having them stop by to talk.  My problem is that, besides that, there's nothing.

I can't go to Merril's house and ask her about the mirror, or her friends, or whatever.  I can't go chat with Anders about the Warden, or his many escapes, or his cat.  I can't go have a beer with Aveline and ask how her marriage is, or how she met Wesley, or why she's no good at actually killing anyone.  I can't go ask Isabela where her pants are, or where her alleged room is, or how she got into the whole pirate business in the first place.  I can't ask them anything . . .all I can do is wait for them to have some quest, and then discuss that with them, do the quest, and talk about it at the end.

I didn't like that.  I didn't feel like I got to know them.  They weren't friends - they were a bunch of people who asked me to do things for them, and who I found useful when I needed to go visit the same cave 14 times.

A good idea, but somewhat lacking.

And the fact that at the end Varric says they all left the champions side after they left the city, wich made me realise that romancing someone had no point what so ever. In my first play I decided to try romancing the guard captain and then realise Im actually helping her getting someone else. So I decided to try someone else but all they offered was quests and my party was full, no place to put Merill in, as it already had 2 mages, a rogue and a warrior and she couldnt replace anyone so I never bothered. During that play I saw 2 maybe 3 heart symbols in all the conversations I did. I really missed going to their houses or workplaces and just chat. Even Alistair was stiff with his forced "Swooping is baaad" line..

[FinalGirl]

Piecake wrote...

Parrk wrote...

I'm missing a 4th.  I've got Varric, Hawke and Merill.  I have my choice of Super-serious, whiney-abusive emo, and awkwarly-off-tempo super -sl@t.

Why can't  there be a 4th normal personality....who doesn't start a world war or disappear for extended periods.

I never used her much since I was a rogue, but Isabella would probably fit your requirements. 

I agree with this. Isabela and Merrill are pretty adorable together in party banter.

[FeriIuce]

Piecake wrote...

Parrk wrote...

What I find odd is how much more difficult it is in DA2 to put together a group of three people who get along.  Morrigan never liked Liliana, but she was never a horribly unkind to her as so many of the companions are to each other in this game.

I prefer light-hearted witty banter.  I like Merill, Varric and .....

I like bethany too, but since I'v eplayed the game through, I generally do not ever take companions who I  know will not be there in the end.  that means Anders is out.  I stop using bethany early on as well because she is missing for all of act 3 save the final battle.  

I think the issue is that I need to just not use fenris ever.  He is a gigantic source of megative energy.  I like when Varric makes cracks about him being so emo, but he is way too cruel to merill.  In DA:O, I  can't think of two companions that even really disliked each other, let alone venemous hatred.

I'm missing a 4th.  I've got Varric, Hawke and Merill.  I have my choice of Super-serious, whiney-abusive emo, and awkwarly-off-tempo super -sl@t.

Why can't  there be a 4th normal personality....who doesn't start a world war or disappear for extended periods.

I think your problem is that you have Merrill in your party.  I really like her as a character, and she definitely is light-hearted/goofy/funny/odd, but she is a source of a lot of hate being a blood mage and all. 

I never used her much since I was a rogue, but Isabella would probably fit your requirements. 

Merril getting hate? What? I've never experienced that. Warric and isabella calls her daisy and kitten, and treats her a bit like a little sister, and aveline doesn't hate her either.

Johannicus wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I've absolutely got to agree with this.

I
liked the concept of companions having homes, rather than standing
around the campfire - or my living room.  I like the idea of getting a
note when someone wants to see you, or having them stop by to talk.  My
problem is that, besides that, there's nothing.

I can't go to
Merril's house and ask her about the mirror, or her friends, or
whatever.  I can't go chat with Anders about the Warden, or his many
escapes, or his cat.  I can't go have a beer with Aveline and ask how
her marriage is, or how she met Wesley, or why she's no good at actually
killing anyone.  I can't go ask Isabela where her pants are, or where
her alleged room is, or how she got into the whole pirate business in
the first place.  I can't ask them anything . . .all I can do is wait
for them to have some quest, and then discuss that with them, do the
quest, and talk about it at the end.

I didn't like that.  I
didn't feel like I got to know them.  They weren't friends - they were a
bunch of people who asked me to do things for them, and who I found
useful when I needed to go visit the same cave 14 times.

A good idea, but somewhat lacking.

And
the fact that at the end Varric says they all left the champions side
after they left the city, wich made me realise that romancing someone
had no point what so ever. In my first play I decided to try romancing
the guard captain and then realise Im actually helping her getting
someone else. So I decided to try someone else but all they offered was
quests and my party was full, no place to put Merill in, as it already
had 2 mages, a rogue and a warrior and she couldnt replace anyone so I
never bothered. During that play I saw 2 maybe 3 heart symbols in all
the conversations I did. I really missed going to their houses or
workplaces and just chat. Even Alistair was stiff with his forced
"Swooping is baaad" line..

Actually Warric says everyone left except for <insert L.I>. Although it was bugged for me so it said isabella instead of merril.

Modifié par FeriIuce, 13 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[Jugo666]

I missed DA:O style interactions at first. And it would be great if they bring it back in DA 3.
But it wasn't all that bad. I change my party set up often and got to know NPC quite well.

[Piecake]

FeriIuce wrote...

Piecake wrote...


I think your problem is that you have Merrill in your party.  I really like her as a character, and she definitely is light-hearted/goofy/funny/odd, but she is a source of a lot of hate being a blood mage and all. 

I never used her much since I was a rogue, but Isabella would probably fit your requirements. 

Merril getting hate? What? I've never experienced that. Warric and isabella calls her daisy and kitten, and treats her a bit like a little sister, and aveline doesn't hate her either.

Well, I mostly used Fenris, Anders, and Merrill, and let me tell you, both of them absolutely loathed her

[Annarl]

FeriIuce wrote...

Party banter was cool, but it always ended up triggering right as I was about to run through a door or enter a shop etc. I probably had 70% of all banter cut off in the middle because I ended up accidentially doing something when it triggered.

This happened to me too or in the middle of a battle when I could barely hear what they were saying.  DA2 companions were nice but I just didn't feel as close to them since I couldn't really ever talk to them.  I mean come on flirt with someone then have sex with them 3 years later.  There should have been some more conversions at each of their home bases at least.  The development of the relationship felt broken.  Your can't talk to or kiss your partner after they move in. Or talk to your mother sister/brother about the past etc. Overall, just not as well done as DA:O. But the companions themselves were great.

Modifié par omearaee, 13 mars 2011 - 10:56 .

[Marcy3655]

I'm really enjoying the new episode of Dragon Age, however I do miss the ability to chat with my companions as we were able to do in DA:O... other than that, I'm having a hard time putting the game down so I can get through a day of work... lol

M

[jojobongos1991]

David Gaider wrote...

You know, what's interesting about this is that there's actually almost as much dialogue per follower in DA2 as there was in DAO (barring perhaps Alistair and Morrigan specifically, considering their larger roles in the story). The primary difference is that in DA2 it's spread out. We took a lot of that dialogue you had before at the camp and deliberately put more of it into their personal quests and the intermittent dialogues you have at the follower's base-- that's where you get to ask them their questions, as they come up in context.

I don't necessarily disike the way companion conversations were designed, or the companions themselves: I just think we needed more of everything.

While the amount of dialogue might be the same as Origins, it simply didn't feel that way because there wasn't enough of it when it felt appropriate.  I do like the idea of spreading out conversations so you feel like you get to know your companions over a span of time, but the actual conversations were too spaced out.  I don't want to wait 3 years just to talk to somebody!   It felt completely absurd and empty, like everyone was suddenly Garrus and suffering from "calibrations"... 

I think another thing that I would have liked to see was more conversations about "casual" subjects.  What made the characters in Origins more life-like and relatable was the fact that you could talk to them about their life, their interests and their thoughts about the world, not just things that have to do with the plot.  Merrill was my L.I. yet I feel like I never new anything specific about her; sure, she's a blood mage and cares about her clan, but I knew nothing else about her.  With, say, Alistair, I got an insight as to how he grew up, his fears and hopes, and that he likes cheese!  I feel like all the lighter conversations happened somewhere behind the scenes, like watching a movie where 2 characters apparently know each other but the audience has no history with them.  Its appropriate for a movie, but not for a game.

The banter was top-notch, but is by no means a substitute for actual dialogue.

TLDNR, what I wanted and hope to see in DA3:

1.  More conversations
2.  More "casual" conversations

Although I finished the game and loved it, I feel like DA2 was rushed in development.  Despite the bugs and copy-pasted environments, the only thing that actually dissapointed me was the apparent lack of dialogue and shallowness of the characters.  Please, Bioware, take as much time as you need with your games!  Delays don't affect sales unless you pull a Duke Nukem, and especially being a company with so many long-time fans, people are willing to wait!  

Modifié par jojobongos1991, 13 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[Drasill]

The companions weren't nearly as memorable as those in Origins. Heck, even Anders was less interesting than when he was in Awakening. This is excluding Hawke who >>> silent idiot Warden.

[MerchantGOL]

Drasill wrote...

The companions weren't nearly as memorable as those in Origins. Heck, even Anders was less interesting than when he was in Awakening. This is excluding Hawke who >>> silent idiot Warden.

i dont agree with that at all

Isabela, Merril, Anders, Fenris > Wyne, Leliana, Alister, Sten

[PSUHammer]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Maybe not get all the dialogue at once, but having the simple reactivity of clicking on the companion and having awesome dialogue happen. At least initially when you first recruit or meet them- I felt like in Act 1 you get the companions but really have no clue who they are for a good long time. And yet you take them around and they're gaining rivalry/friendship, but since you don't know them that well its sort of confusing as to why they're approving/disapproving.

Thats where I liked Origins, just being able to recruit, say, Morrigan and then ask her 20 questions in Lothering to get to know her. And from that point on, you had a foundation of who she was as a character so the banters sort of fleshed out what you had already figured out. So maybe from that point on, if you had more banters in the later acts and reactivity to events with more open ended questioning in the early part, that might help.

Very interesting analysis, and well worth considering. I think the companions are an investment, but there are probably some ways to keep the later-game depth while offering some more specifically establishing information out front. Hmm hmmm. Food for thought.

Thanks, Brock!

I couldn't agree more strongly than what Brock said.  I am at the end of Act 2 and was scratching my head as to why I didn't have as strong as emotional tie to any of my companions...maybe with Varric being the exception.  This TOTALLY explains it.  Act 1 was long and you didn't get to know your companions well.  I am still frustrated on why Merril was getting so many Rivalry points from me!  And, I still have no idea who Fenris is.  Plus...the romances feel tacked on.

If we would have gotten a better introduction to the characters and get to know them a bit in Act 1, I think it would resonate through the rest of the game.  Also, I tend to agree with the direction Gaider wanted to go in getting away from the camp where you have to go and click on everyone until their story is exhausted.  If you keep the new dialog style and have more of it in the first Act, when you meet the companions, they will probably resonate stronger.

As it stands, Morrigan, Leliana, Allistar...they all have more of an impact.  I KNEW Morrigan was memorable as I was playing DAO.  I didn't get that from anyone in DA2.

I will have to replay it again and have different party memebers so I can hear more banter.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 13 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[Drasill]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Drasill wrote...

The companions weren't nearly as memorable as those in Origins. Heck, even Anders was less interesting than when he was in Awakening. This is excluding Hawke who >>> silent idiot Warden.

i dont agree with that at all

Isabela, Merril, Anders, Fenris > Wyne, Leliana, Alister, Sten

Wynne and Sten weren't special but the rest were more interesting than all the DA2 characters except for Fenris who is up there because he was probably the most interesting companion in DA2. The DA2 companions didn't seem important at all (except for Varric telling the story and Anders blowing up the chantry).

[MerchantGOL]

Drasill wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Drasill wrote...

The companions weren't nearly as memorable as those in Origins. Heck, even Anders was less interesting than when he was in Awakening. This is excluding Hawke who >>> silent idiot Warden.

i dont agree with that at all

Isabela, Merril, Anders, Fenris > Wyne, Leliana, Alister, Sten

Wynne and Sten weren't special but the rest were more interesting than all the DA2 characters except for Fenris who is up there because he was probably the most interesting companion in DA2. The DA2 companions didn't seem important at all (except for Varric telling the story and Anders blowing up the chantry).

Alister and Leliana were Vanila

And alister and morrigan were the only important NPCs in DA1


In DA2 Its Verric and Anders [And to a lesser extent Sebastian and Bela]

[Deathmistra]

David Gaider wrote...
 This is not the "talk to companions" game, and thus only so much of our resources can be devoted to it.

while i agree, i have to say what's made DA ''unique'' to me is their compagnion. Until i get to know morrigan i never got any interesse in any single player game, i've been alway more attract by pvp.. while this have changed with DA:O.

btw isabella is also awesome. Just wish i could pay her a beer  whenever i want. At least, while the romance option is active with a character...give us some ''additionnal food'' for the specific character!

[just.a.dude]

I liked it the way it was in DA2. It is different storytelling. The game takes place over 10 years time. You do not spend all your time with your companions. Some may not even be close friends. I also liked the fact that you could not get to know them right away by clicking through dialog, but formed a bond through experience. It seemed more true to real life. Friendships do not always develop quickly.