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[dan107]

Acemath wrote...

Dnarris wrote...

dan107 wrote...

That's the impression I got also. Not to start with the conspiracy theories, but I really think that the upcoming MMO played a part in the decision. Since Bio is more or less betting the farm on the MMO, which will doubtlesss be aimed at a Teen raiting, I think they're trying to avoid any kind of controversy that might drive away the (parents of) potential SWTOR subscribers.

That makes sense in a grassy knoll kind of way.


Not really, a grassy knoll kind of way....I just wanted to say grassy knoll.

I'm not sure on the SWTOR part...Most kids around 14 or 15 haven't even heard about the Star wars universum.And i'm pretty sure 90% of their parents neither.So your opinion on their parents isn't completely right.And besides:You really think kids from that age don't know where to find porn on the interwebs??And let's face it kids from 17 or 18 years old do usually have a job besides school,so they don't need parents to pay for SWTOR

Well, this isn't a claim that I will go out of my way to defend, since ultimately we have no way to know for sure, but that's just the impression that I got. It seems pretty obvious to me that the scenes were intended to be nude but got covered up at the last minute (I just can't imagine anyone in their right mind walking into a design meeting and going "we're gonna have fully animated sex scenes... wait for it... IN UNDERWEAR!) so there must've been a reason for the change of heart.

It has nothing to do with ratings since even were the scenes nude they would still easily pass the M rating even in the US.  EA is not a strict "no-nudity" company, since they had it in Godfather 2. So the reason that jumps out at me is that Bioware just didn't want to make any more headlines for being the company that makes games "that allow kids to pick and choose what kind of sex they want to have" (to paraphrase Fox News); not with a hundred million dollar Teen rated project around the corner. Again, just my personal impression. Take it for what it's worth.

[TheMadCat]

The Demonologist wrote...

Whizzkidd wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Stephen King writes horror novels, and I don't think he has any explicit sex in his books. Romance novels, while containing explicit sex, couches it all in euphemistic language. Films and television prefer to emphasize sideboob and tease the nudity, rather than displaying it outright, due to audience tolerance and various broadcasting regulations. Why do those producers choose to do all of that, when they all arguably develop material for a mature, adult audience? At some point, they settled on a limit for what they're willing to portray, whether it's due to artistic license, what the audience will bear, what is marketable, or, what the audience expects from that type of product.

Actually there is a scene in Stephen King's IT where Beverely, an eleven year old girl, has sex with a bunch of twelve year old boys in a sewer, one after the other. King has a fair amount of explicit sex in his books.

What. The. Hell.

Steven King... dood. I had no idea he was running out of ideas that bad. Yikes

Lol, IT came out like 20 years ago.

[MerinTB]

The Demonologist wrote...

Whizzkidd wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Stephen King writes horror novels, and I don't think he has any explicit sex in his books. Romance novels, while containing explicit sex, couches it all in euphemistic language. Films and television prefer to emphasize sideboob and tease the nudity, rather than displaying it outright, due to audience tolerance and various broadcasting regulations. Why do those producers choose to do all of that, when they all arguably develop material for a mature, adult audience? At some point, they settled on a limit for what they're willing to portray, whether it's due to artistic license, what the audience will bear, what is marketable, or, what the audience expects from that type of product.

Actually there is a scene in Stephen King's IT where Beverely, an eleven year old girl, has sex with a bunch of twelve year old boys in a sewer, one after the other. King has a fair amount of explicit sex in his books.

What. The. Hell.

Steven King... dood. I had no idea he was running out of ideas that bad. Yikes

A - to Whizzkidd:  The exact scene that popped into my mind when I read the "Stephen King doesn't write explicit sex."  King is like everyone else who writes adult fiction - they don't go for porno movie dialog, BUT they are usually far more explicit than Lady Chatterly's Lover.  Even super-Christian Dean Koontz has a pyschiatrist force a patient to have sex with him while making her think he is her father.  If Bioware is looking for defense by saying mainstream media doesn't depict sex with skin or explicitness, they sure should NOT go to horror novelists - or most fiction, for that matter.  So Long and Thanks For All The Fish by Douglas Adams, even, describes Arthur and Fenchurch getting it on and uses the F word for effect.
It's not alienating their audience that worries the game industry - it's overzealous Christian mothers and Senators looking to score quick points like Lieberman and Clinton.

B - The Demonologist: Running out of ideas with IT?  King wrote IT back in 1986 - had quite a few successful books after that, if I recall correctly.

---

I've been trying to avoid this topic, really, because I know anyone who says anything against the censoring of nudity and sex in a game is automatically branded a loser, loner, virgin perv.
But as a married man with a child, I'll add my voice to the "fade to black" or "be realistic" crowd.  A good fade to black at the right moment is perfect (I'm not looking at Fable with the silly black screen "sound effects"), but if you want to be dark, adult fantasy and you are going to depict a love-making scene, do it in either a realistic or an artistic way.
A woman who walked around baring basically everything above her hips suddenly dons a thick fur sports bra or whatever that was for her intimate moment?  Really?

I don't care WHAT the rational for that was, I'm not claiming conspiracy theory here BUT it LOOKS LIKE she was covered more in scenes that somene was afraid would be plastered all over Fox News.  Whether that's the reasoning or not, that is how it comes across.

As for the game, Dragon Age, this really doesn't much impact my enjoyment of the game - another reason for my hesitancy - but on principle, I think this was a weak fail on Bioware's part.  The "fade to black" would have been safe, but done right it would have been more acceptable.

I still don't understand how games can have deformed demons and people ripped apart or dismembered (not speaking DAO strictly here), but were a bare breast to be shown suddenly kids will be corrupted - ESPECIALLY in a game that is rater "Strictly Not For Minors."

Modifié par MerinTB, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:03 .

[addiction21]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Crazy. I wasn't aware of any of that stuff in Stephen King's work. I guess I just haven't read enough of it.

Ya if he can twist it into some sick thriller he will or has done it.  On a side note Eyes of the Dragon is a reasonbly calm book set in a medevilish world with a little fantasy to it.

[vicendor]

im all for it!

[secutor56]

King has always been a shock value writer. Nothing wrong with it. Shock value is one of the reasons DA:O is so good.

[Magilicotti]

MerinTB wrote...
I still don't understand how games can have deformed demons and people ripped apart or dismembered (not speaking DAO strictly here), but were a bare breast to be shown suddenly kids will be corrupted - ESPECIALLY in a game that is rater "Strictly Not For Minors."

I think the general understanding is, seeing deformed demons and people ripped apart, doesn't make you want to be a deformed demon and be ripped apart (or want to act out these things). Seeing a naked model of another humaniod on the other hand....

That's just basic, primal human nature. The issue is that of the oversite placed, which tries to legislate morality, thus, we experience what we have here.

[JubalAri]

Dread Lord CyberSkull wrote...

As amusing as an official adult patch would be, BioWare is contractually prohibited from officially issuing one by their ratings contract with the ESRB.

Actually, they are only prohibited from doing this in the US of A as the ESRB has no say in the matter elsewhere in the world (ESRB actually have no jurisdiction in the US either as they're not a governmental agency, but rather a ridiculous concoction made by the entertainment industry for fear of being sued to death by hysterical parents). EA, on the other hand, will probably not okay such a thing over here in Europe either as they, and all the other behemoths among distributing companies, are immensely afraid of getting disliked (read "loose money"). ;P


*edit*
typos

Modifié par JubalAri, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[Kelston]

Mordaedil wrote...
I'm sorry, you must be ignorant. We "people" are not responsible for his paycheck. He receives his paycheck for organizing the play-testers and play-testing the game from his studio. His studio receives funds from various sources and ultimately the product they offer is only partly funded by the end-users. A lot of their income actually comes from governmental funding and via taxing. The 40 or 60 dollars, or Euros or whatever you, personally, spent on the game, is a rather tiny drop in the ocean. Even if all the forum users collected together and decided to rebel the notion, which isn't going to happen, then the drop in funds isn't going to cover even half of a single percent of the income that the game produced in the wholesale, worldwide.

If your claim is true, which I doubt (government funded game developers rofl), there would be absolutely no reason to advertise to the end user if most of his funds are derived from other sources. Again supposing a game studio gets most of their money from taxation and public funding, Electronic Arts would not have needed to reported a 1.4 billion dollar loss for FY2009 because get this... the end user didn't buy and stay subscribed to their MMO (Warhammer). In addition, where would government funding come from? Taxes. And who pays taxes? We do.

If he is condescending to people, it's because they are acting like retards and he should not need to withhold himself out of some manner of respect for "cash" you or anyone else would be withholding. Ultimately, if this pushes you away from buying the product, that is your decision, but I prefer this community to be cleaned up and act like rational beings rather than the putrid collection of ingrates I scour here every day.

His job is, in part, in keeping order here and sometimes you have to be condescending to a few rimjobs who are not getting the point otherwise.

The problem with your definition of cleaned up and acting like "rational beings" is that you define cleaning up the forums as the mass deletion of posts and mass banning of users who voice their dissatisfaction with any part of the game.

Apparently, in your little delusional world (and apparently Stanley's), you're being a rimjob if you do anything but lavish praise and ignore any possible faults. That doesn't make me or anyone in this thread with a complaint a rimjob. It makes you a corporate shill. A douchebag. A fanboy. And a catcher. I hope you're invested in a company that produces kneepads given how thoroughly you use them.

Stop making demands of Stanley Woo. He is a developer and I think that garners some respect should be demonstrated. If you can't do that, I suggest you move on. You will not be wanted here.

Respect is earned. You do not gain respect simply because you happen to work at a successful game studio. He lashed out at the very people he makes products for.

And why? Because we viewed his product and statements about the product as laughably hypocritical.

On one hand, he insists artistic vision and the desire to be tasteful. And on the other hand, he's participating in the release of videos which focus entirely upon sexuality and prostitution.

Modifié par Kelston, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:02 .

[Terwox_]

I can't wait til Fox News gets a wind off this, I'll be the first in line to lol at their article/blog/news feed/news video/or whatever.

[MerinTB]

And now having just completed the "romantic interlude with Alistair" let me say that, while I don't know how different each coupling may be (though if the trailers and all I've heard about Morrigan are true, they are very different),



the intimate scene was done tastefully and artistically. I was ready to be annoyed and instead thought it was on par with Mass Effect.



So on another playthrough I'll have to see if the others are much different (specifically the much mentioned more clothing during sex than not), but for now...



my apologies, Bioware, for jumping to conclusions based on ads and hearsay.



My stand on principles is still valid, but at least as far as the Alistair romance is concerned, DAO lived up to that stand.

[Zenon]

Just wanted to mention:



@schnaucl:



Great post, I sign it immediately!

[Rikaze]

*Shrugs* I feel like even scenes with nudity in them can be done tastefully and artistically...

I understand BioWare needing to cover their ass after Mass Effect, however, though, this would have never happened if Video Games were a more mainstream form of entertainment, and if not for things like the infamous Hot Coffee mod scandal.

Personally, I've been watching R rated movies and playing M rated games since I was a small boy. My parents, however, had enough common sense to tell me never to repeat any phrases or actions I saw depicted in these movies... Which only lasted until I was 16, but still, I didn't turn into some homicidal maniac... Yet... >.>

Seriously though, if you, as a parent, are concerned about what entertainment media might have some kind of effect on your child, then CONTROL THEIR INTAKE of said media, and stop whining, "Ohhh, I didn't know!" Anyone who's been arrested before and tried to use the excuse, "But I didn't know that was illegal!" will have the pleasure of hearing the judge tell them, "Ignorance of the law does not excuse your crime." Same concept. I'm not even a parent and that just seems like common sense to me...

[muniekk85]

yeah! gief ******!

[Mordaedil]

Kelston wrote...

If your claim is true, which I doubt (government funded game developers rofl), there would be absolutely no reason to advertise to the end user if most of his funds are derived from other sources. Again supposing a game studio gets most of their money from taxation and public funding, Electronic Arts would not have needed to reported a 1.4 billion dollar loss for FY2009 because get this... the end user didn't buy and stay subscribed to their MMO (Warhammer). In addition, where would government funding come from? Taxes. And who pays taxes? We do.

Most businesses in world gets government funding to remain stationary, but their income as a whole are measured from, indeed, game sales. Even if they receive the funding, it's usually a lot, but that really depends on how successful a studio is as well. Someone like Bioware might not even notice it compared to the game sales income and might even not take the government funding because there'd be little point in taking support income when you've got a lot of money to wave around already.

Note that government taxes are regional, so I guess the correct answer to the last part is that the people of Edmonton pay taxes to keep Bioware in business. But this might also not be the case now that they've entered the EA funding, where EA handles monetary issues and dealerships. And then it's no longer governmental, but driven by stock market.

Kelston wrote...

The problem with your definition of cleaned up and acting like "rational beings" is that you define cleaning up the forums as the mass deletion of posts and mass banning of users who voice their dissatisfaction with any part of the game.

Except that Bioware do not delete posts nor do they "mass ban" users at all. You're still here, after all.

Kelston wrote...

Apparently, in your little delusional world (and apparently Stanley's), you're being a rimjob if you do anything but lavish praise and ignore any possible faults. That doesn't make me or anyone in this thread with a complaint a rimjob. It makes you a corporate shill. A douchebag. A fanboy. And a catcher. I hope you're invested in a company that produces kneepads given how thoroughly you use them.

And you prove my point by failing to prove a point without resorting to namecalling.

Mature.

Kelston wrote...

Respect is earned. You do not gain respect simply because you happen to work at a successful game studio. He lashed out at the very people he makes products for.

I would have thought respect would have been earned from making this game in the first place. But just as you think respect is earned, remember that such a thing is a two-way street. Spitting in their faces isn't going to elicit extra respect from the developers either.

Kelston wrote...

And why? Because we viewed his product and statements about the product as laughably hypocritical.

On
one hand, he insists artistic vision and the desire to be tasteful. And
on the other hand, he's participating in the release of videos which
focus entirely upon sexuality and prostitution.

Could it, perchance be related to the fact that Stanley Woo had nothing to do with the latter?

But I digress, getting to reasoning with you is just going to prove insufferable.

[code2501]

Just simple feedback to my bio heros, Love your work, lover your game, the characters and dialogue were trully top notch as expected but the decision to use underwear in certain scenes was an imersion breaker for me.



keep up the good work, hope to see some improvements in content decisions in the future.

[SilverSteelWolf]

Stanley Woo wrote...

...Films and television prefer to emphasize sideboob and tease the nudity, rather than displaying it outright, due to audience tolerance and various broadcasting regulations. Why do those producers choose to do all of that, when they all arguably develop material for a mature, adult audience? At some point, they settled on a limit for what they're willing to portray, whether it's due to artistic license, what the audience will bear, what is marketable, or, what the audience expects from that type of product.

 First of all I appreciate you taking the time to enter this fray as it's obviously one of those topics that's near-impossible to keep civil (and not just on the internet). I've always loved BioWare and the fact that you are willing to contribute to discussions like this increases my respect for you and the company all the more.

I think what bothered me the most was the contrast between the sexual scenes and the rest of the game. I understand the reasons for not wanting to put nudity in a game, and while I may be frustrated with my culture's treatment of sex, it is what it is. I just think that there were ways to compromise on this front that weren't quite so...immersion-breaking?

You have Morrigan, who, in both concept art and in-game, wears rather revealing clothing, and then to have sex she puts on thick woolen undies? It's that kind of stuff that bothers me most. I think the same content compromise could have been achieved by "teasing sideboob," clever camera angles for "implied nudity," or even just a fade-to-black. None of those things would have been as stark as what was ultimately done.

Personally, I think that if Anna Paquin can go topless in True Blood, developers should be able to expose the body in games. However, understanding the need to compromise, wasn't there a better way? Isn't this something that could still theoretically be "fixed?"

[Tripedius]

What I was wondering btw, if it is possible to have same sex relationships in game, do they have a 'lovemaking scene' in which they kiss? Cause it seems to me that same sex sex and nude demons fondeling themselves would not make it necessary to censor human nakedness. Also doesn't same sex sex have more of an impact than simple boobs? (Well not here in Holland anyway, but the Americans seem to be uptight about it).

[Verraxe]

Personally, it has nothing to do with wanting to see nudity or "porn".



The underwear just looks cheesy.



I would have been much happier if they had just clipped all the shots to be above bra line so that none of it was visible.



There doesn't need to be nudity at all, just shoulder height and above really. Given some of the shots in that scene, it shouldn't take all that much work to do it that way.

[Akka le Vil]

Stanley Woo wrote...

How about we decided we didn't want to go the explicit sex and nudity route, and believe that tasteful romance and sex scenes fit the game, game world, genre, and medium better than explicit sex would?

How about we want to appeal to as many people as possible, and having explicit sex and/or nudity would be counter-productive?

How about we're not making a movie or a sex game, and while it is possible to have tasteful full frontal or sex, you'll have to look elsewhere for it?

How about it doesn't matter how much time we have, it is unlikely that we will decide to include explicit sex and/or nudity in our game?

The soapboxing, nationalism, and personal tolerances have nothing to do with this being our game and we decide what to include and exclude, for various reasons. If y'all are truly "mature" enough to accept sex and violence in your games, you should also be mature enough to accept a lack of sex and violence in your games.

There is a serious disconnection and contradiction in your answer.
Not many people asked for tasteless detailed porn scenes in the game, as you seem to imply.
On the contrary, many people say that the scenes would have been better with a more tasteful approach.

The problem is that you put sex scenes with very explicit sex positions (seriously, there is very clear doggystyle and missionnary and the like), which is fine in itself - it's a game rated for adults after all - but then you add ridiculous underwear.
If you were going for "tasteful/romantic/etc." scenes, why make them so explicit and not just go for camera angles ?
If you were going to "explicit", then why do put underwears that just are ridiculous and out of place ?

THAT is the problem : the dichotomy and contradiction. NOT the fact that "we want to see boobs and vaginas !".

I don't mind either way. I'm an adult, I've seen naked women, I'm fine with explicit sex scenes. I'm also fine with more artistic representation with camera angles, close-up on faces, romantic music and settings and the like.
What I find ridiculous is the half-assed way of going explicit and backpedaling into ridiculous PC.

Do it well one way or another, but don't go halfway to botch it.

[Damar Stiehl]

As the sex scenes are right now, they should've never been included. At least the heterosexual and lesbian ones. They look stupid and ridiculous. I am sorry, but nobody I know screws in woolen panties and Fort Knox bra, least of all a wild-girl witch. At least when two men go at it, it LOOKS like they are both naked.



Now I like a bit of graphic nookie as much as the next guy, but rather than butcher the scenes, Bioware should've either 1) manned up and given us full frontal or 2) ditched the whole idea altogether and "faded to black" during sex instead.



And no, there won't be an official nude mod, everyone might as well stop asking. (BUT YES, I WANT ONE TOO, except I'd rather see Bioware put money towards developing more content rather than towards its legal fund). Welcome to the good old US of A, we are all good Christians here (or at the very least, we THINK OF THE CHILDREN), sex is a filthy matter and pornography and masturbation are wicked sins.



Expect to see less, not more tolerance towards graphic (and not so graphic) sexuality as time wears on. A full-scale backlash is in effect, and unless you are, say, about five years old right now, it is unlikely that it will end within your lifetime.



Suck it up.

[SilverSteelWolf]

Expect to see less, not more tolerance towards graphic (and not so graphic) sexuality as time wears on. A full-scale backlash is in effect, and unless you are, say, about five years old right now, it is unlikely that it will end within your lifetime.

But Jack Thompson's been disbarred, that's got to count for something! 

[Tripedius]

@silversteelwolf, yeah the backlash is rough. Like mothers screaming that their 12-year old is seeing this. They never seem to realize that they are at fault, cause, hello, what the is your 12-year old doing with a mature game?

Then they most likely will bring forth the game are for kids so why is it full of violence in the first place argument. Puritans suck (or rather they don't) and the most perverted idiots on this world are puritans (and religious).

[slash197]

Tripedius wrote...

What I was wondering btw, if it is possible to have same sex relationships in game, do they have a 'lovemaking scene' in which they kiss? Cause it seems to me that same sex sex and nude demons fondeling themselves would not make it necessary to censor human nakedness. Also doesn't same sex sex have more of an impact than simple boobs? (Well not here in Holland anyway, but the Americans seem to be uptight about it).

Same sex relationships have full scenes, too.  There's also threesomes, foursomes (think there are even achievements for these two), transexual/crossdresser, and bestiality.

[Akka le Vil]

slash197 wrote...

Same sex relationships have full scenes, too.  There's also threesomes, foursomes (think there are even achievements for these two), transexual/crossdresser, and bestiality.

Bestiality ?