617 réponses à ce sujet

[TheMadCat]

dan107 wrote...



I don't see why particularly passionate gamers would be any more or less predisposed to nudity than the average gamers. As far as sample size, yeah 100 is a little small, but 5,000 is way too many. 500 or so will be quite sufficient to prove the point IMO.

More passionate gamers tend to be more open minded is all I was trying to say, thus would be much more willing to accept such a scene. And as for sample size, for a game that's sold what half a million copies at least, 500 is a little short to get an accurate representation, atleast get 1% of your demographic. I'll reiterate a point I've made several times in this thread though, if a person does not get offended with anything prior to the scene I cannot see how they would get offended by the scene, so yes more then likely your poll does reflect reality.

EA doesn't seem to be particularly opposed to nudity. It had it in Godfather 2, and just look at Dante's Inferno.

The ESRB had nothing to do with this either. Even if the scenes in DA were fully nude, they would still pass the M rating. Contrary to popular belief, the ESRB is not just sitting around waiting and praying for a chance to slap an AO rating on games. Unless the sex is interactive or really graphic, even full frontal still falls under the M category.

So this really seems like it was Bioware's last minute internal decision in order to avoid controversy. Although who cares what the "general public" thinks, if the people who are actually going to BUY your game are overwhelmingly for it?

Neither what the Godfather 2 had nor what is in Dante's Inferno would have been at the level as what a frontal nude scene, tasteful or not, what have equated to and least from my perspective. They have shown hesitation in the past though lately they have loosened up a bit.

As for the ESRB, no I know they aren't sitting around hoping to slap an AO on a game but they certainly have no qualms of doing so. Case in point, Fahrenheit (Google Fahrenheit sex scene if you want, it's tame). The game prior to the scene had nothing to really warrant anything higher then a T, light alchol and tobaco use, some suggestive stuff, few scary moments and a bit of blood. Nothing overly violent or gross, nothing overly portraying anti-social behavior or things of that nature. They put out what I thought was a very well done and very tasteful scene without there being anything seen anatomy wise and it gets slapped with an AO (There was a little controversy about this a few years back). The ESRB does get over-sensitive about sex scenes, now Dragon Age would get more leniancy simply because of it's financial backing where as Fahrenheit got the book thrown at it because it was so small I'm sure the majority of gamers here have never heard of this game. But at the same time, the ESRB has shown a few times they'll slap on the AO if it gets to detailed, or in the case of Fahrenheit a little detailed.

[marcmorr6]

gotta love those uppity bible thumpers lol, sooo funny that when you die everyone knows your mind integrates into the mmo npc of your choice.

[pumpkinbread]

meh controversy is a marketing tool. it won't be long before people make elaborate brothels, dual wielding strap ons and full on nudity anyway. it always happens, and made even easier with the toolset.

it was going to happen either way, so bioware backed out. so what. the community is going to have a field day modding the game regardless.

Modifié par pumpkinbread, 21 novembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[Kalcalan]

orionlocke wrote...

This is a hack and slash game so yes, there is going to be violence and gore otherwise it wouldn't be much of a hack and slash game right?
I don't think a bunch of nudity is needed to make a good hack and slash game.

I'm sorry but if you thing that Dragon Age is a hack and slash game then you've never played a hack and slash game.

Maybe I'm wrong but all this time I thought Dragon Age was a CRPG...

[dan107]

orionlocke wrote...

I'm probably going to get ripped up and down for posting this but I'll do it anyway. I was the one that brought up integrity and respect (and got blasted for it) so here is my reasoning. I am not trying to be hostile or attack anyone here so lets please keep it clean, there's no need to 50 more posts saying how stupid and ignorant I am or how I'm some zelot that thinks the human body and all sex is evil. I'm merely stating what I think and giving an alternate view to think about.
This is a hack and slash game so yes, there is going to be violence and gore otherwise it wouldn't be much of a hack and slash game right?
I don't think a bunch of nudity is needed to make a good hack and slash game.
The more sex and nudity there is on TV, in movies, in games, the more sex and the body is cheapened to the point where the meaning of what sex is supposed to be is completely lost. I said respect before...respect the body, respect the opposite sex, respect what sex is truely supposed to be. Is it something you want cheapened to the point where it's just an action with no real meaning? Maybe...but not me.
If you're married, or not married but want to be at some point, the more sex and nudity you see, the more damage it does to your marriage, thats why porn is so damaging. The more sex and nudity you see on TV, in movies, on the internet, in games, the harder it gets to be satisfied with your spouse (sex and their body). The less satisfied you get, the more likely it will be to go outside the marriage and cheat. What do you have then...a broken home which is quickly becoming the norm in this time. When I say integrity, I'm saying shouldn't we want to be above that...avoid that? Shouldn't sex and the human body have some sanctity? Maybe you think not, but I do.
I'm 30 year old, I'm married, and I have kids so I'm not blowing a bunch of smoke without knowing what I'm talking about. I've had problems in my marriage just like the next person so no, I'm not perfect either but I have researched these types of things. Do you think I'm spewing a load of crap? Research it yourself and see what you find...you'll be surprised.
Anyway like I said, I am not trying to attack or be hositle so please don't attack to be hostile in return. We're all entitled to our opinions. If your opinion on the subject is different than mine, I respect that because you have the right to think what you want. Please just take what I have said as maybe something to think about and please lets not post a ton of degrading and hostile replys.
Sorry for the long post...didn't mean to make it this long

I appreciate your providing some reasoning for your position. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but stating that you believe what you do because you have integrity, and therefore implying that everyone who disagrees with you does not is bound to ruffle a few feathers.

What I would say in response though is that if you're having problems with your marriage, maybe there are bigger issues at the heart of it than some brief nudity in video games, no? The implied connection between sex in games and BROKEN HOMES is a VERY strenous one. To put it mildly..

TheMadCat wrote...
More passionate gamers tend to be more open minded is all I was trying to say, thus would be much more willing to accept such a scene. And as for sample size, for a game that's sold what half a million copies at least, 500 is a little short to get an accurate representation, atleast get 1% of your demographic.

A sample size of 1% of the 2 million or so people that will buy DA is absurd. I'm not doing this to win the arguement, but to share a fun little fact.

http://www.raosoft.com/samplesize.html

It's a nifty sample size calculator. Statistics is a very interesting thing. Once you're working with a demographic of above 25,000 or so, it doesn't matter what the demographic size is. It can be in the billions, but that will have absolutely no bearing on the necessary sample size to obtain an accurate value. A sample size of 500 will give you an accurate estimate with about a 5% margin of error. A sample size of 1,000 (standard for most polls) yields about 3% error. The poll's current (130 votes) margin of error is 8.5%, meaning that there is a 91.5% chance that it's dead on, and a 99.99% chance that it's not off by more than 8.5%.

Again, counterintuitive as it might seem, the target demographic size is completely irrelevant. So long as your poll and sample are not biased, it doesn't take very much at all to get a VERY accurate idea on the opinion of a very large group of people.

As for the ESRB, no I know they aren't sitting around hoping to slap an AO on a game but they certainly have no qualms of doing so. Case in point, Fahrenheit (Google Fahrenheit sex scene if you want, it's tame). The game prior to the scene had nothing to really warrant anything higher then a T, light alchol and tobaco use, some suggestive stuff, few scary moments and a bit of blood. Nothing overly violent or gross, nothing overly portraying anti-social behavior or things of that nature. They put out what I thought was a very well done and very tasteful scene without there being anything seen anatomy wise and it gets slapped with an AO (There was a little controversy about this a few years back). The ESRB does get over-sensitive about sex scenes, now Dragon Age would get more leniancy simply because of it's financial backing where as Fahrenheit got the book thrown at it because it was so small I'm sure the majority of gamers here have never heard of this game. But at the same time, the ESRB has shown a few times they'll slap on the AO if it gets to detailed, or in the case of Fahrenheit a little detailed.

I was actually going to mention Fahrenheit for what I thought was the perfect example of sex and violence done right, but thought that it would be too obscure a reference. The game is a true gem, and it's a shame that so few have heard of it. What got them the AO rating, I believe, was the interactive part though.

As a counter example I'll point you to The Witcher Enhanced Edition. It's rated M in the US in spite of sex scenes and full frontal:
http://3.bp.blogspot...00-h/morren.jpg
Initially it was censored in the US edition, but that was at the insistence of Atari. They wouldn't even let the game go to the ESRB unedited, even though it ultimately did with the Enhanced Edition and still got an M rating. Seems like something very similar happened to DA.

Modifié par dan107, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[addiction21]

[quote]Crawling_Chaos wrote...

[quote]orionlocke wrote...


PPS: there is always room for breasts.

[/quote]

And JELLO!!!

[TheMadCat]

I was actually going to mention Fahrenheit for what I thought was the
perfect example of sex and violence done right, but thought that it
would be too obscure a reference. The game is a true gem, and it's a
shame that so few have heard of it. What got them the AO rating, I
believe, was the interactive part though.

As a counter example
I'll point you to The Witcher Enhanced Edition. It's rated M in the US
in spite of sex scenes and full frontal:
http://3.bp.blogspot...00-h/morren.jpg
Initially
it was censored in the US edition, but that was at the insistence of
Atari. They wouldn't even let the game go to the ESRB unedited, even
though it ultimately did with the Enhanced Edition and still got an M
rating. Seems like something very similar happened to DA.

I won't argue with you anymore on the poll, we both agree it's accruate in general we're just arguing on numbers which is pointless.

They actually removed the interactive aspect of the scene in the U.S. version of Fahrenheit because, well, they wanted to avoid the AO rating. The ESRB said they wanted the scene toned down a bit and the lead guy said he wasn't going to compromise anymore and they slapped it with an AO, that's where the controversy sprang from. I own the U.S. Directors Cut version and the interactive part was taken out so despite it's removal it still had the book thrown at it.

As for The WItcher, I've heard a few differnt things there but what I got from the developers over at their forums was the ESRB wanted the nipples covered on the cards, the scenes themselves were never more then a glace or implied to begin with. So the NA version had the edited version of the cards and the druid up there. I'm actually glad you brought it up though as CDProjeck actually just released a patch not to long ago that uncensored all versions of the game, so I guess it is possible Bioware could do something similar later.

[dan107]

TheMadCat wrote...
They actually removed the interactive aspect of the scene in the U.S. version of Fahrenheit because, well, they wanted to avoid the AO rating. The ESRB said they wanted the scene toned down a bit and the lead guy said he wasn't going to compromise anymore and they slapped it with an AO, that's where the controversy sprang from. I own the U.S. Directors Cut version and the interactive part was taken out so despite it's removal it still had the book thrown at it.

Really? Just to clarify, you're saying that the US Director's Cut of Fahrenheit DOES NOT have the interactive sex scenes, and is still rated AO? That would be news to me. I originally bought Indigo Prophecy (the M rated US version that had ALL sex and nudity cut completely) and then had the UK edition shipped over here once I found out about the censorship.

As for The WItcher, I've heard a few differnt things there but what I got from the developers over at their forums was the ESRB wanted the nipples covered on the cards, the scenes themselves were never more then a glace or implied to begin with. So the NA version had the edited version of the cards and the druid up there. I'm actually glad you brought it up though as CDProjeck actually just released a patch not to long ago that uncensored all versions of the game, so I guess it is possible Bioware could do something similar later.

It wasn't the ESRB, it was Atari. I'm positive on that. About a year ago they released the Director's Cut Enhanced Edition in the US, which had ALL the nudity from the European version, and that still got an M rating: http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp.

The Witcher never had explicit sex scenes, but it had full frontal, like in the pic I linked in my last post. DA would've been exactly the same without the underwear. A full frontal shot, followed by softcore, non-interactive sex. Really not enough to warrant AO.

[Inhuman one]

That it was Atari I can believe, the most rediculously censored game to date is Neverwinter Nights 2. even bare arms are a sin in that game appearantly. All clothes close up to the neck as well. even cleavage is evil appearantly, and even men cant be shown with a bare chest.

[Erasculio]

orionlocke wrote...
The more sex and nudity there is on TV, in movies, in games, the more sex and the body is cheapened to the point where the meaning of what sex is supposed to be is completely lost. I said respect before...respect the body, respect the opposite sex, respect what sex is truely supposed to be. Is it something you want cheapened to the point where it's just an action with no real meaning? Maybe...but not me.

Ah, ok. Violence is fine, though? I mean, if you were to follow that same line of thought, the more violence and blood there is on TV, in movies, in games, the more violence and blood is cheapened to the point where the meaning of what violence is supposed to cost is completely lost. Is it something you want cheapened to the point where it's just an action with no real consequence?

See, that's where American hypocrisy shines. If you think sex in a game (and there's already sex in Dragon Age, for the records) makes people not really care about what sex means, you can't just say violence is ok; you have to make the same stand, that violence would also be bad. Yet I doubt very much any fan of DA:O, one of the bloodiest games of this year, would state this.

Bioware should have known better. Violence and blood aren't less "taboo" than sex (quite the opposite; a common person is hopefully going to have far more sex than violence in his/her life). If you are going to show our characters cuting the head of enemies and being bathed in blood, there is no point in censoring the sex scenes that have already been added in the game. Again, they didn't have to show full frontal nudity, but the big underwear just screams censorship.

[bjdbwea]

Why such a long thread? For me, the answer is pretty simple. Do it like in Mass Effect: Realistic "clothing", but decent camera angles. After all, that's how most movies do it as well. And BioWare obviously and rightfully learned a lot from movies for the directing of their cutscenes. Which makes it even less understandable why they chose this new approach for DA, which looks indeed quite silly.

[Sakiradesu]

The Desire Demons you run into time and time again have less clothing on just talking to you than when you sleep with your significant other.



I think it might be that the censors look specifically at the sex scenes to make sure that they are... appropriate to its rating. Or maybe monsters are ruled by a different ESRB!

[Sarakinoi]

>>>The Desire Demons you run into time and time again have less clothing on just talking to you than when you sleep with your significant other.<<<

lol'ed. So true...



But from previous replies from bioware, I don't think it is simply an ESRB problem. I am under the impression that when we speak about this nudity problem on these forums, Bio developers think we are just being immature... when in reality these scenes just feel illogical and immersion breaking and this naturally bothers us.



At the end of the day we are not asking to see nudity, we are just asking for a more coherent approach that does not offend common sens and feel fake and gimmicky.



I would honestly prefer to see only kisses and nothing else in this game, than to see some scenes where characters put on bras they did not have before to make sex. It is just comical and a big distraction from what that scene was supposed to accomplish : to show us that two characters are growing closer and more intimate.

[TheMadCat]

dan107 wrote...



Really? Just to clarify, you're saying that the US Director's Cut of Fahrenheit DOES NOT have the interactive sex scenes, and is still rated AO? That would be news to me. I originally bought Indigo Prophecy (the M rated US version that had ALL sex and nudity cut completely) and then had the UK edition shipped over here once I found out about the censorship.

Indeed.

www.direct2drive.com/3/725/product/Buy-Fahrenheit:-Indigo-Prophecy-Directors-Cut-Download

That's where I bought it from a few years ago, it's got the AO rating as you see with a link to the M rated version, had everything the European versions have minus the interactive part.

It wasn't the ESRB, it was Atari. I'm positive on that. About a year ago they released the Director's Cut Enhanced Edition in the US, which had ALL the nudity from the European version, and that still got an M rating: http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp.

The Witcher never had explicit sex scenes, but it had full frontal, like in the pic I linked in my last post. DA would've been exactly the same without the underwear. A full frontal shot, followed by softcore, non-interactive sex. Really not enough to warrant AO.

I don't know, like I said I've heard both ESRB and Atari have been faulted so to speak, I just know one of the CDProjekt developers came to the forum and kind of laid into ESRB a bit on their "senseless and unbalanced priorities" or something like that. Perhaps he was trying to divert attention away from Atari it's just something I remember because it was hilarious and true, I'll see if I can dig that thread up it's a few years old now so it may be gone.

As for the removal of the censorship, it wasn't the EE that did it but rather their Directors Cut and This patch which came out a couple of months ago. The EE was still censored, I know that because the thread for the nude mod continued to grow after the EE.

[Dex1701]

Lol at the number of times this thread has gone full-circle. Nobody is reading the thread beyond the last couple of pages anyway.

"We want moar b00bz!"
"OMG sickoz!"
*some people trying to make rational points and are almost categorically ignored*
"B00000000000000bz!"
"OMG get a RL girlfriend, sikko!"
*more rational arguments that are ignored*
"Underwearz look stupid grumble grumble grumble..."
"OMG no integrity...sex is filthy and shameful...etc....etc..."

And on, and on, and on, and on....  Some people want in-game nudity way too much...some are way too against it.

Modifié par Dex1701, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:44 .

[vorianxavier]

Inhuman one wrote...

That it was Atari I can believe, the most rediculously censored game to date is Neverwinter Nights 2. even bare arms are a sin in that game appearantly. All clothes close up to the neck as well. even cleavage is evil appearantly, and even men cant be shown with a bare chest.

You couldn't be more right. That game was practically unplayable for me unit the "Always Summer" mod came out. It wasn't a nude mod, it just made the clothing less ridiculous.

[ThrakenSal]

I just have to say.... Who Cares? C'mon, it's not like these are REAL people, it's a game already. I think you might need to seek therapy if you feel nude pixels are sexy.

[Bakakenny]

sacredl wrote...

I'm wondering how even this game can be 18+ if there aren't stupid ****** in erotic scene ?

****** are never stupid, my friend.  
Fun?  Yes.
Jiggly/Juggly?  Oh yea.
Tasty?  Well, I hope not, because that would mean that you're a soon-to-be-father (or an already-father who just got lucky for your birthday and Mom has another suprise for you).

[Inhuman one]

the game's purpose is to portray these characters as real people, the same purpose that a movie has and wouldnt deliver if a couple has sex and the woman covers her chest with a blanket the morning after.



And with movies there is a cameraman there and a whole team and a person might feel embarassed, in a videogame the character is not alive and cant feel that embarassment.



If anything, such censorship makes far less sense in games than in movies because you are not looking at real people.

[KalosCast]

Anyone else thought that the Bioware response to this, while ignoring all of the rational points made was nothing but pointless jackassery?

[Maria Caliban]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Right, so you're perfectly OK with a super violent game, but once you get a bare nipple in there... WHOA too far.

Because he has INTEGRITY.

By integrity you must mean a convoluted set of principles brought about by a puritanical mind-set that shuns the human body, making you believe that sexuality and the naked form are evil and disgusting.

Combined with a desensitization to violence that thinks it's alright for games to have gratuitous amounts of graphic violence and gore, even though a bare nipple would cause him to feel uncomfortable.

That's some good integrity you got there.

Learn to read. I said he has integrity, not that I have integrity.

I want porn and fountains of blood, as I've said several times.

[dan107]

TheMadCat wrote...
Indeed.

www.direct2drive.com/3/725/product/Buy-Fahrenheit:-Indigo-Prophecy-Directors-Cut-Download

That's where I bought it from a few years ago, it's got the AO rating as you see with a link to the M rated version, had everything the European versions have minus the interactive part.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

I don't know, like I said I've heard both ESRB and Atari have been faulted so to speak, I just know one of the CDProjekt developers came to the forum and kind of laid into ESRB a bit on their "senseless and unbalanced priorities" or something like that. Perhaps he was trying to divert attention away from Atari it's just something I remember because it was hilarious and true, I'll see if I can dig that thread up it's a few years old now so it may be gone.

As for the removal of the censorship, it wasn't the EE that did it but rather their Directors Cut and This patch which came out a couple of months ago. The EE was still censored, I know that because the thread for the nude mod continued to grow after the EE.

There are 3 ESRB rated versions of The Witcher in the US. The original one with no nudity rated M, the Enhanced Edition with no nudity rated M, and the Enhanced Edition Director's Cut with FULL nudity still rated M. You can check the ESRB website on that.

The point is that The Witcher with all the nudity in its unaltered form did eventually get submitted to the ESRB for rating in the form of The EE Director's Cut, and it still got the M rating. So unless the ESRB changed their rating guidelines in the year or so between the original Witcher and the EE Director's Cut, Atari is the culprit. Although one can make the case that it was their fear of the ESRB that drove them to self-censor in the first place, in this particular case that fear proved to be unfounded.

[Cat Lance]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Learn to read. I said he has integrity, not that I have integrity.

I want porn and fountains of blood, as I've said several times.

Maria, I heart you. --I'll second Maria's vote too, I'm all for equal opportunity porn and blood.