617 réponses à ce sujet

[timmah30]

well this is my view on it. I can actually understand personally why some would want the nudity in the game. When your trying to suspend disbelief you need to have some aspect of realism in it. When the intimate scenes came up, they were in there undies and bras . How many people get busy with clothes on? So for that 60 seconds (or less) your actually taken out of the reality its trying to accomplish. Now i am not saying, show the guys junk or anything, but maybe showing the pixels actually topless and perhaps the characters backside would of at least kept you in the world rather than taking you out of it.

Personally, like so many others, i can care less, that wasn't why i got the game. But by the same token, i can understand why it should of been in the game. Its pretty much a damned if you do/ damned if you don't situation. and also, i think the ESRB, if the nudity was there, would of handed it an AO rather than the M rating which would put everyone out of luck because both Sony and Microsoft said they would not have AO games on there consoles, + as far as retailers go, with an AO rating, who would carry it if it was made??

these are the things some need to think about. PC would be able to get the AO version. but Xbox and PS3 owners would be screwed! Sometimes the bullet need to be bitten to get a good game out to as many people as possible.

[vortex590]

I wish game companies would realize that every time some talking head on the news start going off on the horrible violence/nudity/sex/homosexuality in your game it just makes more people buy it.

[Trelow-LMG]

They do realize that. However it does you little good if MS and Sony won't let you put it on their consoles and retail won't carry it.

[Seebeh]

vortex590 wrote...

I wish game companies would realize that every time some talking head on the news start going off on the horrible violence/nudity/sex/homosexuality in your game it just makes more people buy it.

this was one of the reasons why the internet really took off too back in '94 or so.

but getting back to the original post, is it really necessary to see all the 'bits'?  putting something like that in which represents perhaps 0.01% of the game will instantly land it with an R-rating in some countries or being banned all together.  we're playing a RPG game not a porn.

plus there is the fact that games are an interactive medium and as such represent unique psycological issues that say films or tv are not subject to.  nudity or violence in a film is not quite the same in an interactive game.

[TheMadCat]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Jeez, sometimes it feels like this is the only mature topic on the entire forums. No wonder half the development team has committed seppuku

No worries, once everyone gets bored of bashing and ripping the DLC this thread will sink back into the cess pool and all will be right in the world once more.

Personally, like so many others, i can care less, that wasn't why i got
the game. But by the same token, i can understand why it should of been
in the game. Its pretty much a damned if you do/ damned if you don't
situation. and also, i think the ESRB, if the nudity was there, would
of handed it an AO rather than the M rating which would put everyone
out of luck because both Sony and Microsoft said they would not have AO
games on there consoles, + as far as retailers go, with an AO rating,
who would carry it if it was made??

these are the things some
need to think about. PC would be able to get the AO version. but Xbox
and PS3 owners would be screwed! Sometimes the bullet need to be bitten
to get a good game out to as many people as possible.

Me and Dan actually had a nice little debate on this earlier in the thread about the ESRB. They've had games involving light sex and nudity which they've given an AO rating too (Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy) and a games involving light sex and nudity where they've given them an M rating (The Witcher: Enhanced Edition Directors Cut). So it is somewhat hard to tell exactly where the ESRB draws the line in terms of M/AO ratings. The one difference I see between the two examples I made is that in Fahrenheit the nudity and sex are in the same scene and the scene itself is more intimate so to speak (mind you the only "parts" you see during the scene is the woman's breasts, very well done scene and one of the best love scenes ever in gaming)and The Witcher where the nudity and sex are separate and the actual scenes are never shown, some moans and groans and bed shaking on those that don't simply fade away. So perhaps any nudity and sex together is the no-no for the ESRB, go figure.

Personally I'm still on the side that if they had done the topless woman during the scene it would have nailed them an AO, it's debatable obviously however the scene could have still been much better and still maintained that M rating. That's also why I stick to the belief that the original intentions were for a full frontal scene and when the decision or order came down that it had to be covered it was to late to go back and do it all over or it simply wasn't worth the effort. That's just so below Bioware's usual quality on anything.

but getting back to the original post, is it really necessary to see all the 'bits'? putting something like that in which represents perhaps 0.01% of the game will instantly land it with an R-rating in some countries or being banned all together. we're playing a RPG game not a porn.

plus there is the fact that games are an interactive medium and as such represent unique psycological issues that say films or tv are not subject to. nudity or violence in a film is not quite the same in an interactive game. /images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png

Personally I'd rather not see "all the bits", if they were there and the scene was still done well I wouldn't mind. Some here want all the bits, Maria has been pretty vocal about that. But the general consensus amongst us "perverts" as we have been called by a few is that it's not necessary to get extremely detailed just to have a better feel for the moment in the scene. Honestly if we had a poll I'd think a silhouette style similar to Mass Effect would be the most popular choice, at least that's what I've gathered from the reasonable and semi-sane posts.

It's interesting you bring up the psychological idea. I can make the same argument that the intense violence would have just as much an impact as any detailed sex scenes would. At least sex is a part of everyday life, why it's been bastardized in gaming as it has and to an extent still is I'll never know. Personally I'm of the school that video games may effect 1 out of every 500,000,000 people who play them, and even then that person who is affected already as some sort of neurological disorder that prevents them from properly sorting reality and fantasy, right and wrong. That's for violence mind you, I've yet to figure out what fear people have of kids seeing sex in a game, worse case scenario they have sex? And why does the effect of a kid seeing a couple having sex in a movie have a lesser impact on a kid seeing sex in a video game? Isn't a cutscene nothing more then a clip of a CG movie? It's not like we're in first person here mashing the space bad and moving the mouse forwards and backwards as hard as we can.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:50 .

[vorianxavier]

All of this makes me want to check out the original version of Fahrenheit. I didn't know I was missing anything when I played the American Indigo Prophecy on Xbox.



I'm glad Georg showed up with his usual awesomeness to let us know a dev is still paying attention to this thread. I accept Bioware's argument that this is an issue too minor to "fix"...but who's to say there won't be better-done intimate scenes in an expansion or sequel? Bioware now knows the views of their most ardent fans on the matter.

[Pinkleaf]

I think having adult content switched off by default only to be turned on from the main menu would satisfy everyone's desires.



A story like this in which you get drawn into so deeply should be kept real wherever possible, this would include scenes of passion.

[durasteel]

TheMadCat wrote...

It's interesting you bring up the psychological idea. I can make the same argument that the intense violence would have just as much an impact as any detailed sex scenes would. At least sex is a part of everyday life, why it's been bastardized in gaming as it has and to an extent still is I'll never know. Personally I'm of the school that video games may effect 1 out of every 500,000,000 people who play them, and even then that person who is affected already as some sort of neurological disorder that prevents them from properly sorting reality and fantasy, right and wrong. That's for violence mind you, I've yet to figure out what fear people have of kids seeing sex in a game, worse case scenario they have sex? And why does the effect of a kid seeing a couple having sex in a movie have a lesser impact on a kid seeing sex in a video game? Isn't a cutscene nothing more then a clip of a CG movie? It's not like we're in first person here mashing the space bad and moving the mouse forwards and backwards as hard as we can.

I'm personally of the opinion that they could depict graphic inter-species erotica and it still would have less of a psychological impact as the origin of the Broodmother as revealed by Hespith's chilling free verse poetry.

Modifié par durasteel, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:08 .

[DM Veil]

durasteel wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

It's interesting you bring up the psychological idea. I can make the same argument that the intense violence would have just as much an impact as any detailed sex scenes would. At least sex is a part of everyday life, why it's been bastardized in gaming as it has and to an extent still is I'll never know. Personally I'm of the school that video games may effect 1 out of every 500,000,000 people who play them, and even then that person who is affected already as some sort of neurological disorder that prevents them from properly sorting reality and fantasy, right and wrong. That's for violence mind you, I've yet to figure out what fear people have of kids seeing sex in a game, worse case scenario they have sex? And why does the effect of a kid seeing a couple having sex in a movie have a lesser impact on a kid seeing sex in a video game? Isn't a cutscene nothing more then a clip of a CG movie? It's not like we're in first person here mashing the space bad and moving the mouse forwards and backwards as hard as we can.

I'm personally of the opinion that they could depict graphic inter-species erotica and it still would have less of a psychological impact as the origin of the Broodmother as revealed by Hespith's chilling free verse poetry.

You'd be right.

[dan107]

Cat Lance wrote...

dan107 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...
Someone earlier asked "what's with the just mod it in reactions," and since I was one of those who said that, I'll explain. BioWare created the game, it's theirs, and they have decided that they won't be removing the granny bras/panties. So, that leaves modding. There's no reason to berate and be rude at BioWare staff or anyone else over this.

Everyone stop insulting people on a personal level.

There is no reason to berate or insult anyone, sure, but the whole purpose of the forums is to voice our pleasure/displeasure with certain aspects the game. My point was that if I'm not satisfied with a particular part of the game, the fact that I can "mod it in" does not in any way change that dissatisfaction. I don't know how to mod, nor do I wish to learn. And I already played through the game once, I never replay games, so a nude mod wouldn't do me any good at this point anyway. All I can do is give my feedback to the devs and hope that they will do things differently next time.

Did you read my posts, even the one you quoted? I have repeatedly stated the right of discourse. However, no one comes here to be abused and it only detracts from one's point. There is no reason the discussion cannot remain civil, Dan.

Of course I read your posts. My response was that modding is not a satisfactory solution, at least not for me. What on earth gave you the idea that I'm somehow against the discussion being civil?

Pinkleaf wrote...

I think having adult content switched off by default only to be turned on from the main menu would satisfy everyone's desires.

Some kind of parental controls in games would be a very good idea IMO. Not sure how it could be implemented effectively, since the average kid knows a lot more about computers than their parents, but maybe effectiveness isn't that important here. The mere presense of seemingly effective partental controls ought to be enough to quiet down the "think of the children!" crowd.

[dan107]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Jeez, sometimes it feels like this is the only mature topic on the entire forums. No wonder half the development team has committed seppuku

Since you're here Georg, any chance you could give us some insight into the decision making process at Bioware about nudity in general, and the scenes in DA specifically?

Modifié par dan107, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:52 .

[Cat Lance]

dan107 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...

dan107 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...
Someone earlier asked "what's with the just mod it in reactions," and since I was one of those who said that, I'll explain. BioWare created the game, it's theirs, and they have decided that they won't be removing the granny bras/panties. So, that leaves modding. There's no reason to berate and be rude at BioWare staff or anyone else over this.

Everyone stop insulting people on a personal level.

There is no reason to berate or insult anyone, sure, but the whole purpose of the forums is to voice our pleasure/displeasure with certain aspects the game. My point was that if I'm not satisfied with a particular part of the game, the fact that I can "mod it in" does not in any way change that dissatisfaction. I don't know how to mod, nor do I wish to learn. And I already played through the game once, I never replay games, so a nude mod wouldn't do me any good at this point anyway. All I can do is give my feedback to the devs and hope that they will do things differently next time.

Did you read my posts, even the one you quoted? I have repeatedly stated the right of discourse. However, no one comes here to be abused and it only detracts from one's point. There is no reason the discussion cannot remain civil, Dan.

Of course I read your posts. My response was that modding is not a satisfactory solution, at least not for me. What on earth gave you the idea that I'm somehow against the discussion being civil?

My responce was to the bolded part, that, since you had quoted my post, I was responding with the italicized part and then clarified that my point was that we DO all have the right to talk, as long as we keep it civil. Not saying you weren't being civil specifically. (My original post was specifically defending our right to air our greivances here. As a few people seemed to think we didn't.)

Pinkleaf wrote...

I think having adult content switched off by default only to be turned on from the main menu would satisfy everyone's desires.

Some kind of parental controls in games would be a very good idea IMO. Not sure how it could be implemented effectively, since the average kid knows a lot more about computers than their parents, but maybe effectiveness isn't that important here. The mere presense of seemingly effective partental controls ought to be enough to quiet down the "think of the children!" crowd.

I'm going to say, "Think of the kittens!!" *oh well, that's two more for the Zombie Kitten Army...

[Frostaxt]

I see so many naked women in newspapers and television here in Europe, which makes the underwear sex scenes in DA:O kind of refreshing rare to me.

I must admit that I would have never thought of putting on underwear before sex (Morrigan...), instead of the other way around.. Congratulation to the one responsible for this imaginative and unique twist!

[Krennick]

Let me preface this by saying that the game is as it is, and I am not expecting nor advocating a patch to make it more or less inclusive of nudity etc. However, this is an interesting discussion that I am happy to see a Bioware representative engage in. Maybe the ideas tosses back and forth in this thread will influence direction in future games. I know I have a suggestion (that admittedly echoes some already posted)

Gore has an on/off switch - why don't we.... do more of that. For both violence and romance.

Violence could be expanded to be a set of perhaps 3 settings:
Gameplay - aka clean - you beat opponents but no blood/gore
Gory - blood splatters everywhere but no outright cruelty and in general <kill him> dialogue options not in evidence
Depraved - <kill him> dialogues in evidence (like the guy in the cage in Ostagar)

Romance could have perhaps 4 options:
Friendly - you befriend your companions but there is no romance
Pristine - there is flirting, romance and fade-to-black
Romantic - flirting and romance and dialled down sex scenes (through camera angles or wearing underwear)
Pornographic - allow somewhat more revealing camera angles and get rid of the underwear

Additional thoughts:

Parents could install the game and password protect specific modes

Dialogue options would need to enable play through on the lowest settings - but the higher settings would only be in evidence where relevant. In the case of approval rating or similar systems some rewards might need to be tweaked based on the violence or romance settings.

Especially dialogue trees are good for enabling these kinds of interaction. RIght now I mentioned violence and romance as two possible dimensions that could be used for this kind of thing. Outright morality is another option (and maybe can replace some of the things I put under violence) - to allow the player to take actions that betray or constitute criminal behaviour. Some mentioned NPCs reacting to the player party in a specific way based on their stealing behaviour - rather than have that hard coded by exception everywhere a morality framework could make it easier to implement this type of behaviour.

I don't think a single maturity dimension is reasonable, but I do think the number of maturity dimensions defined needs to be very small.

I think the main value in this kind of idea is if it can have a direct impact on the maturity rating of the game. This may carry an additional cost as the ratings body may need to spend more time with the different permutations of the game, but just as a tool can be produced to provide a maturity framework within the dialogue editor a similar tool can be produced to support the ratings effort. Depending on how the different levels in each dimension of the maturity framework are defined these can tie directly into market specific restrictions and so on.

It would undoubtedly carry costs - but it may also enable a game to reach a wider audience, and there may be savings in interactions with ratings bodies and specific markets - it may outright open the doors to specific markets that currently are no-go areas (through enforced use of minimal settings) - both geographical but also in terms of age groups.

[Broughden]

morti84 wrote...

There have been larger and more important oversights in this game, such as with the laziness shown with Wardens Keep DLC, Archery being ineffective, just look at the other threads in this forum.

Young? Im engaged and have a child of my own, live in a lovely big house and earn a ton of money, perhaps thats where my lack of concern over a load of nerds complaining about sex scenes that didnt give them hard on comes from.

+1
Man some of you people complain about the most esoteric and ridiculous crap.

[Sergiyftw]

Krennick,

Thats a great idea!

Everyone is happy.

[MerinTB]

Broughden wrote...

morti84 wrote...

There have been larger and more important oversights in this game, such as with the laziness shown with Wardens Keep DLC, Archery being ineffective, just look at the other threads in this forum.

Young? Im engaged and have a child of my own, live in a lovely big house and earn a ton of money, perhaps thats where my lack of concern over a load of nerds complaining about sex scenes that didnt give them hard on comes from.

+1
Man some of you people complain about the most esoteric and ridiculous crap.

One man's "ridiculous crap" (say, whining endlessly about DLC as if you are entitled to something) is another man's  "larger and more important"  topic.

And BTB, on top of the strawman argument about "lack of hard on" inducing "sex scenes", morti84 has added the logical fallacy of the ad hominem attack - calling those he disagrees with "a load of nerds."

You could also argue there's poisoning the well going on - as in morti84 doesn't want the opinions or arguments of those of us who have a problem with the romantic encounter since we are all just "a load of nerds complaining about sex scenes that didn't give (us) hard on(s)" and therefore whatever we say is automatically invalid.

As for "Im engaged and have a child of my own, live in a lovely big house and earn a ton of money, perhaps thats where my lack of concern" - that would be a non-sequiter.

In short- morti84 is engaging in name-calling and misrespresenting the opinions of those he disagrees with.

Good show, morti84.  Way to be civil.

Why Broughden wants to +1 that makes no sense to me.

[Tamerlane94]

i live in Norway and our version doesnt even akcnowledge that DA:O has sex scenes in it...says 18: violence.....

maybe we are all just geeky,nerdy, dispicable perverts as some in this thread say
 
not completely ontopic i know but just thought id throw this out there

[TheMadCat]

Broughden wrote...

morti84 wrote...

There have been larger and more important oversights in this game, such as with the laziness shown with Wardens Keep DLC, Archery being ineffective, just look at the other threads in this forum.

Young? Im engaged and have a child of my own, live in a lovely big house and earn a ton of money, perhaps thats where my lack of concern over a load of nerds complaining about sex scenes that didnt give them hard on comes from.

+1
Man some of you people complain about the most esoteric and ridiculous crap.

Wonderful in depth opinion their buddy. So tell me, why is this "ridiculous crap"? Why are the subjects of DLC and bad graphics so valid and why are the people who complain about them so righteous? They're all opinion based notions and arguments just as this is. I may personally find the graphics to be great and the DLC to be fun and worth the money but that doesn't make other peoples complaints and opinions any less valid. I think because this scene in particular involves the portrayal of sex people like you get these foolish and convoluted ideas and the laziness to read every post or failure to actually comprehend them leads to the complete and utter misidentification exactly WHAT we are actually discussing and suggesting.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:07 .

[SheffSteel]

Tamerlane94 wrote...

i live in Norway and our version doesnt even akcnowledge that DA:O has sex scenes in it...says 18: violence.....

maybe we are all just geeky,nerdy, dispicable perverts as some in this thread say
 
not completely ontopic i know but just thought id throw this out there

My memories of visiting Norway include visiting a public sauna, sitting around naked with complete strangers while trying not to melt, so yeah, your culture may vary

[timmah30]

Seebeh wrote...

vortex590 wrote...

I wish game companies would realize that every time some talking head on the news start going off on the horrible violence/nudity/sex/homosexuality in your game it just makes more people buy it.

this was one of the reasons why the internet really took off too back in '94 or so.

but getting back to the original post, is it really necessary to see all the 'bits'?  putting something like that in which represents perhaps 0.01% of the game will instantly land it with an R-rating in some countries or being banned all together.  we're playing a RPG game not a porn.

plus there is the fact that games are an interactive medium and as such represent unique psycological issues that say films or tv are not subject to.  nudity or violence in a film is not quite the same in an interactive game.

Ok so your saying violence good, sexuality bad?? i just wanna make sure im reading this right. After all were playing an rpg game, not watching Hostel!

[dan107]

morti84 wrote...

There have been larger and more important oversights in this game, such as with the laziness shown with Wardens Keep DLC, Archery being ineffective, just look at the other threads in this forum.

Young? Im engaged and have a child of my own, live in a lovely big house and earn a ton of money, perhaps thats where my lack of concern over a load of nerds complaining about sex scenes that didnt give them hard on comes from.

When I grow up I hope to be cool like you.

[Broughden]

MerinTB wrote...

Why Broughden wants to +1 that makes no sense to me.

Because I agree with him that a bunch of nerds arguing over the artistic integrity of a sex scene in a RPG is funny, and yet at the same time....very very sad.
Some of you take yourselves and your opinions way way to seriously.
Carry on! Fight the good fight!