Godeshus wrote...
MerinTB wrote...
Or are you going off the oft-quoted cliche notion that people who are angry and want to hurt others use video games to vent their violence in safe ways? If so (and I'm sure this is true sometimes for some people) what WOULD be wrong with someone seeking sexual release from a video game (or porn) as compared to going out and cheating on their SO or spouse, or who are unable to get a date, or would otherwise be paying for a prostitute? This is a separate issue, and I apologize to everyone for derailing the thread a bit but - why is it automatically assumed that a sex game is worse than a violence game? How lame is the argument against Rock Band that "if you want to play an instrument, play a real instrument and not a game one" or even worse "why steal stuff or kill fake people in a game when you can do it for real"?
Actually, this seems to me like we are arguing the same point, but not seeing it. The thing is, I think you misunderstood my point, seeing superficially. Understandably, as it is impossible to see inside my head on a forum thread. It is also very possible that I didn't express myself properly.
I am not saying the underlined text. I don't think there is anything wrong with going to prostitutes, or watching porn, although I see a problem with stepping outside of marriage for sexual release, but for entirely different reasons. That is the point I am making in regards to this. Those are the "other avenues" I mentioned.
I do, however, understand that many simply want a more realistic approach. What I have issue with in regards to this, is why? There have been many answers to that "why?", many repeating their viewpoints 4, 5, 6 times over again, it was mentioned. THAT is what I see issue with. For a few seconds of love making in game, we have a 24 page thread arguing about it. It is our (and I include myself in this) obsession with sex that leads to such huge response rate. Many here keep saying that it is no big deal and should be in the game. The thing is that it MUST be a big deal if we are coming back to this thread over and over and over again to state our points of view. It is my opinion that many here have made an issue of a non-issue.
We are roll playing in DA, and our imagination has a large part to do with the game. Why is it that we are less inclined to want to apply our imagination to a sex scene? Why is it, really, that we need to "know" that these people are entirely naked in their love making. There are certain laws in place (which I think are dumb laws, but whatever) preventing a developer from showing the good bits. There are many ways around this, and Bioware, or EA, chose this one. Why can't we simply imagine what is going on, as we imagine so many other things in the game. There is a certain social backlash accompanied with dealing with these issues, as was demonstrated by the reviews of ME, which is something Bioware was probably trying to avoid. What is wrong with that, I ask you?
Holy misquoting, Batman!
It is clear to me where your mind is focused - of my entire response to you, you narrow in on and only respond to my digression. I knew it was a bad idea to even momentarily stray there, but egotistical thought that by adding the part I just bolded PLUS the very next line that was cut -
That digression aside -
I apologize, Godeshus (and again to everyone reading this thread) - the bit that you focused on was an aside that was meant to be taking outside of the thread topic - a mistake on my part. Forget I even brought it up, while it isn't necessarily irrelevant it is really beside the point.
What you SHOULD have focused on, based on your response that I underlined above, is the following from my response to you.
I reiterate - many of us want the ALREADY INCLUDED intimate encounter
in a game where there are plenty of other RISQUE MOMENTS AND CONTENT to
be done in A LESS AWFUL WAY.
A way that could include camera angles, or a fade to black skipping the scene entirely.
Why
is it that everyone who decides that we who are complaining about the
ugly, unrealistic underware ignore the many, many times we say we would
be happier with camera angles or fade to blacks? Is it because it
destroys your worldview that says those who accept or want nudity in
video games MUST be perverted, dateless, friendless teenagers?
Repeat after me the following, Godeshus, so I know for sure you've gotten the points:
1 - DAO, as released, already has much subject matter, options, and visual content that make the lovemaking scenes in ME look like Saturday morning cartoon content. Most of us in this thread are NOT asking them to increase this amount of content (The Pearl in Denerim, for example.) REPEAT: most of us are NOT asking for more nudity, more sex scenes, more options with animals, inanimate objects, and rape. NOT.Result of accepting 1 - everyone can stop saying "
Why is it that we are less inclined to want to apply our imagination to a sex scene?" or the more often (and I'm paraphrasing general statements here) "You want sex, get it IRL you loser" as, repeatedly, I and many others have said (and I'll pull one quote from way back in my original posting on this thread)
I'll add my voice to the "fade to black" or "be realistic" crowd. A
good fade to black at the right moment is perfect (I'm not looking at
Fable with the silly black screen "sound effects"), but if you want to
be dark, adult fantasy and you are going to depict a love-making scene,
do it in either a realistic or an artistic way.
...
As for the game, Dragon Age, this really doesn't much impact my
enjoyment of the game - another reason for my hesitancy - but on
principle, I think this was a weak fail on Bioware's part. The "fade
to black" would have been safe, but done right it would have been more
acceptable.
That was my very first response in this thread, page 14.
I bolded the repeated referencing that "fade to black" would have been good. I italicized the part where I said that the scene in question doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the game.
Ok? Most of us would RATHER have had a fade to black than what we got. We'd rather not have clothed, simulated sex - but no sex shown. IF sex was to be shown, most sex (unless maybe you have some kind of belief system that sex is solely for procreation and therefore seeing the naked body is somehow really bad) occurs with no clothes on EXCEPT in pseudo-steamy fiction where couples can't wait to get undressed (or other instances where it clearly is NOT love-making.) So the couple should be nude or assumed nude (under blankets, shadows on a tent, whatever) or NOT SHOWN AT ALL DURING SEX.
Can we stop the "why do you want to see their body parts zoomed in on graphical depiction during dirty, dirty intercourse" (ok, that last part was very exaggerated, but it FEELS that way many times.)
2 - I, and I'm pretty sure many of the others on my side, are having a problem with this issue because: Bioware repeatedly advertised that this was "dark fantasy" and not for kids but mature subject matter, and because about half the ads for the game showed Morrigan or Leiliana getting busy half-naked, and because Bioware decided to include brothels and love interests and sex scenes and medieval thongs (?) and medieval bras (?) (fantasy, yes, but the middle ages (I know this isn't Earth or historically accurate in any way) smallclothes were much more concealing and in no way meant to be sexy - if they were worn at all, which they often weren't) - the APPARENT last minute photoshopping of ugly underware onto an animated sex scene strikes most of us as, on principle, ridiculous.
Result of accepting 2 - Acknowledging the game is already filled with sexual content, and accepting that our problem with one scene of this content is the ridiculousness of the silly underware in a scene that could have still not been graphic (in a game already very graphic) but well done.
You say -
There is a certain social backlash accompanied with dealing with these
issues, as was demonstrated by the reviews of ME, which is something
Bioware was probably trying to avoid. What is wrong with that, I ask you?
and I respond - underware or nude, Fox News (if it decides to attack DAO for ratings with the evangelical and puritanical portion of its audience) would still say the depicted sex scene is too much for children (despite it being an M rated game), that the fact that the game includes repeated rape references, the brothel, killing of children all make DAO worse than GTA. And, in a sense, from their point of view to that portion of their audience -
FOX NEWS WOULD BE RIGHT.
Tossing underware on Morrigan would only save Bioware from giving Fox News a very easy image to put up - but you know what? I think the Desire Demon and a short clip from the Pearl would be ALL THE NARRATIVE Bill O'Reilly would need.
THIS is, more or less, what made me join the discussion and keep it going on my end. The censorship, as done, accomplishes nothing but being a minor annoyance to some players (or perhaps easing the conscience of some PR people at Bioware or EA, perhaps?) It is self-censorship for no good reason, most likely out of fear and not a creative decision.
The artistic, creative decision would have been a fade to black or camera angles. The actually "safe" decision would be to not show a sex scene at all, dress up the desire demons, and not have a brothel. The chosen result seems to defy logic.
3 - I, for one, have never demanded Bioware do one damn thing. Not once. It
IS indeed Bioware's game to make how they see fit, and they could never
had even a kiss shown and I'd probably still love the game. I'm fairly certain most of those arguing on my side have never once demanded a thing of Bioware, along the lines the DLC threads and mage overpowered threads. While the OP and thread title were a half-hearted plea to get the scene patched, the discussion quickly and has ever since evolved into a discussion on the scene in question and what is wrong with how it was done while most of us arguing said point being FULLY ACCEPTING that Bioware won't change this for this game period.Result of accepting 3 - No longer telling us to stop whining since Bioware isn't going to change the scene. We are (EDIT-)
NOT acting to change the scene. We are discussing this because the topic is of interest and a forum is where you do that.
The "why 24 pages" constant meme that those who are telling the rest of
us who have an issue with the scene in question to just stop talking
about it because nothing will change. Why the fixation on this point of the game? Why 24 pages?
Maybe because this is one of the very few threads on the forum that doesn't have multiple, multiple people starting their own versions of it? Add up all the pages for the "Mages are overpowered" or "WK wasted my money" or "DLC is wrong" or "They screwed up Dexterity!" and you'll see way more than 24 pages for any of those topics. I think any of those issues are no more relevant than this one. Despite as SheffSteel put in one thread "overpowered mages are like a truck crashed into your living room", all of these topics are ones that you can ignore and have fun with the game.
Maybe we keep talking about it because the relationship part of the game is more important to us than the cost of DLC, or how daggers do damage, or if the mage could totally kick the warriors butt in a straight-up fight. Maybe the
seemingly last minute decision on the one scene is question really disturbs our sensibilities and we wish Bioware, the same Bioware that gives you the option to kill children and have sex with an animal in the game would have stuck to it's "dark fantasy" "mature" game guns and let people have sex the non-PG way (or, like the sex with animal and killing of children and mutliple rape refences, JUST NOT SHOW IT AT ALL.)
My question - what does the length of the thread have to do with the price of tea in China?
How is the fact that the thread is of a certain length matter at all?
The "Human Noble - What did you name your dog?" thread is about 10
pages long, and that's just people saying what they named the dog. How
many people give a rip about that?
10 pages worth, apparently.
The
length of the thread, when brought up as a point in the discussion
about the scene in question, is a non-sequiter. It is unimportant.
Another reason there are so many responses, like this one I'm making here to you, is because it truly looks like people are either
A - ignoring what we say to paint us with broad insulting stereotypes
B - misunderstanding what we are saying
C - purposefully setting up strawmen to dismiss us
---
So, to try and sum up my overly long posting in soundbites for you, Godeshus:
1 - DAO is already sexually saturated; those of us having a problem with the scene in question would be happier with LESS, not more, sexual content (fade to black) OR with the scene being tastefully done with no nudity but less silly (camera angles a la Mass Effect) OR removing the underware as that is just silly when fully showing the sex scene. We are not asking to turn the game into something IT IS NOT ALREADY.
2 - Bioware advertised the game in a certain way, and made bold decisions about subject matter everywhere - all that flies in the face of the timidness of the scene in question, a scene which really isn't timid overall but silly due to timidness as it is still sexually charged. This is ridiculous.
3 - The discussion has evolved, and has been at the point for most of the thread, away from the OP and thread title - almost no one arguing that the scene was bad is asking for or expecting a patch from Bioware. Still, we should be allowed to discuss this topic with at least as much deferrence as the DLC haters and mage haters. Ok, maybe we and they should all be attacked less.
Modifié par MerinTB, 26 novembre 2009 - 10:58 .
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