617 réponses à ce sujet

[Zenon]

@Stanley Woo:

Your answering style suggests, that you have no clue and just try to imply we are a filthy lot. Thank you very much for answering aggressively to fans of the game adding their personal opinion on the way the romantic scenes are handled in the game. That helps us to understand.

I just pointed out in my post, along with others, that in some countries too much blood can get a game forbidden and at least in the US it seems "nipple-gate". Thanks Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake. Even though it occurs to me, that the actual scandal may have been that the clean Janet has a flashy piercing... Ok I digress...

Anyway, my point was, that at least the bra on Morrigan looks out of place after seeing the Desire Demon with so much less covered up. Actually the most sensuous view so far is found elsewhere in "Nature of the Beast" (more i can't say to avoid spoilers).

So the point of most posters here is, that Bioware chose to show a "love" scene with a sensuous touch without blacking out after the initial kiss. Especially with Morrigan the bra looks a bit out of place. I enjoy the game anyway, but still it seems more like a trade-off for US rating and avoiding such ridiculous discussions like the infamous "coffee shop" scene in GTA4 (?) ... (Not sure about which GTA exactly, since I don't have or play this. Saw a vid in youtube and after reading about this outrageous uproar it caused, the actual video of the scene made me laugh my head off.)

Bioware has proven with ME already how nicely they can do a well made love scene with a great balance between erotic and romance without becoming too prudish, nor too explicit.

I hope someone else from Bioware, like Mike Laidlaw, reads this too. I quote:
"From the makers of Mass Effect™, Star Wars®: Knights of the Old Republic™, and Baldur's Gate™ comes an epic tale of violence, lust, and betrayal."

The "lust"-part seems to be a lot more restricted than the violence part... We are not trying to flame Bioware, but like to explore this topic and figure out if there is a chance for this kind of art to show a similar level of (virtual) skin as a normal cinema movie does. We are not talking about porn or any of the like.

I love this game also with Morrigan wearing her bra. Besides there probably will be plenty of mods -- probably soon enough some including nudity for those players, who like it. I also have no problem with that. And I think Bioware doesn't either.

My guess is similar to other people's speculation, that Bioware and EA wanted to avoid any public discussion or bad press concerning the nudity part.

Modifié par Zenon, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[Stanley Woo]

SkiTheMadRussian wrote...

Dnarris wrote...
How about you mind your business and let us chat amongst ourselves and you back to whatever Bioware is paying you to do.

Agreed. These "Bioware" folks that post in this manner are clowns. Guess what, we BOUGHT this game. Which technically makes it ours now too. Folks here don't have a problem with sex NOT being in this game or with it BEING in this game. Its the fact that its done very very poorly and ruins the atmosphere.

Sorry, I didn't realize that developer responses here would be so frowned upon, considering the subject being discussed. I also didn't realize that personal opinion equalled fact and/or consensus.

[Druscylla]

To be honest, I find a lot of the interactions between the characters enchanting (Maybe it's because I am a romantic sort of girl...I dunno), and the scripts are well written and the little side conversations and stuff are great. But to me the nudity thing is more about politics and caving to the opinions of non-gamers instead of listening to the player base. Remember how we used to blame the transgressions of our children on their parents, then TV? Now its fashionable to use video games.
But to be called out for "soapboxing" and called "immature" by the company I am trying to support is very untactful and offensive. I don't CARE that there is no nudity in the game, but a simple "We chose not to add full nudity and explicit sexual situations because it would detract from the real purpose of the game" or something would be more productive.

Modifié par Druscylla, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:35 .

[vorianxavier]

Skellimancer wrote...

I really don't think a nude patch would make the scenes any better.

Funny how there is more emotion in the kiss (I romanced Leliana) than the godawful fumbleathons in the tent.

Thanks for indirectly answering my question. Yeah, I just had the kiss last night and loved it. Too bad "making love" apparently isn't  going to live up to the promise of the kiss. I just hope there will be plenty more dialogue with her. She's really a wonderful character.

As for some the other recent posts...I understand why a lot of you didn't like Mr. Woo's post (I wasn't crazy about it myself), but hurling insults at him is definitely not constructive.

Modifié par vorianxavier, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:24 .

[Kalcalan]

Druscylla wrote...

I am fully mature enough not to view nudity as shameful or horrible. But also, my game experience is not hindered by not having nudity in this game. However I find Bioware's response to be offensive and childish like yelling neener neener to the "perverts" who are merely discussing game politicking which is as vicious as dwarven caste systems. We are told to be mature either way, and this also can entail discussing the matter like adults. Attacking your user base by calling us immature and hurling self righteousness in our faces achieves nothing other than making you look childish.

I'm just an elf and I calls em as I sees em.

Very good post. I totally agree.

[Dnarris]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, I didn't realize that developer responses here would be so frowned upon, considering the subject being discussed. I also didn't realize that personal opinion equalled fact and/or consensus.

It's not developers responses that are frowned upon, it was the incarnation of the response.

If you can't go back and read your post and think you could of handled it better, then you're missing the point.

[Zenon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

SkiTheMadRussian wrote...

Dnarris wrote...
How about you mind your business and let us chat amongst ourselves and you back to whatever Bioware is paying you to do.

Agreed. These "Bioware" folks that post in this manner are clowns. Guess what, we BOUGHT this game. Which technically makes it ours now too. Folks here don't have a problem with sex NOT being in this game or with it BEING in this game. Its the fact that its done very very poorly and ruins the atmosphere.

Sorry, I didn't realize that developer responses here would be so frowned upon, considering the subject being discussed. I also didn't realize that personal opinion equalled fact and/or consensus.

It seems he got you quite provoked. Why do you react to just this flame instead of contributing more to the discussion? Your "maybe we wanted..." answering style wasn't satisfying at all. Are you a developer or just a moderator? What did you develop? Sorry for asking, but I'm sure a developer with leading function would IMHO have answered a bit more to the point.

[GreenSoda]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, I didn't realize that developer responses here would be so frowned upon, considering the subject being discussed. I also didn't realize that personal opinion equalled fact and/or consensus.

Don't be too stressed out by a single choleric poster that got carried away. Dev posts are always welcome.

...that being said, you can't possibly convince me that Morrigan dressing up for sexy time was actually the way this scene was meant to play out.

[Numbnumb27]

Have you even watched any of the sex scenes?



I tried to but the year date in the birthdate input didn't go back far enough (LOL)!

[Westbound]

The lack of breasts/ass being shown in my video game is ruining my experience and immersion. *Rolls d20 dice, cleans wolf shirt, dies alone*

[Stanley Woo]

Zenon wrote...

@Stanley Woo:

Your answering style suggests, that you have no clue and just try to imply we are a filthy lot. Thank you very much for answering aggressively to fans of the game adding their personal opinion on the way the romantic scenes are handled in the game. That helps us to understand.

I am well aware of how thing could have been done. I merely disagree that things should have been done a certain way, since everyone's got a slightly different opinion on how bad the scenes were, different tolerances of nudity and sex in their games, and whether such things can or should be "patched".

Hindsight is always 20/20, and it's much, much easier to criticize the way somehting was done--especially here on the internet--than it is to try and please everyone all the time. As for the aggressive tone: I'm sorry, but I tend to respond in the way people criticize, because, here on the internet, it seems that's the only way some people know how to talk--in terms of absolutes, hyperbole, and a certain level of certainty (read: arrogance).

So the point of most posters here is, that Bioware chose to show a "love" scene with a sensuous touch without blacking out after the initial kiss. Especially with Morrigan the bra looks a bit out of place. I enjoy the game anyway, but still it seems more like a trade-off for US rating and avoiding such ridiculous discussions like the infamous "coffee shop" scene in GTA4 (?) ... (Not sure about which GTA exactly, since I don't have or play this. Saw a vid in youtube and after reading about this outrageous uproar it caused, the actual video of the scene made me laugh my head off.)

I don't know that anything was done as a "trade-off" with Dragon Age. It is a different product than Mass Effect, developed by a different team than Mass Effect, with a different vision than Mass Effect. Personally, while I don't care for the underwear on the models, either, I think the scenes are not terrible. Could they be improved? Absolutely. Should they be improved? Well, no game is perfect, and I generally disagree that we should devote time and effort into something that is merely disagreeable rather than game-breaking.

Bioware has proven with ME already how nicely they can do a well made love scene with a great balance between erotic and romance without becoming too prudish, nor too explicit.

I hope someone else from Bioware, like Mike Laidlaw, reads this too. I quote:
"From the makers of Mass Effect™, Star Wars®: Knights of the Old Republic™, and Baldur's Gate™ comes an epic tale of violence, lust, and betrayal."

The "lust"-part seems to be a lot more restricted than the violence part... We are not trying to flame Bioware, but like to explore this topic and figure out if there is a chance for this kind of art to show a similar level of (virtual) skin as a normal cinema movie does. We are not talking about porn or any of the like.

I love this game also with Morrigan wearing her bra. Besides there probably will be plenty of mods -- probably soon enough some including nudity for those players, who like it. I also have no problem with that. And I think Bioware doesn't either.

My guess is similar to other people's speculation, that Bioware and EA wanted to avoid any public discussion or bad press concerning the nudity part.

I think it's just that whatever decision we make, someone is going to be offended by it or unhappy with it. You can see how people react to us not including more explicit sex and violence in the game. There is no way that we could change (or not change) the game and magically please everyone.

[Zenon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

 [..]

I think it's just that whatever decision we make, someone is going to be offended by it or unhappy with it. You can see how people react to us not including more explicit sex and violence in the game. There is no way that we could change (or not change) the game and magically please everyone.

Thank you for your reply. In essence I have to agree, that you can't please everybody. It just seems, especially with the much different bra than in the regular clothes, Morrigan is partially more dressed for romance than for battle. No offence meant. Anyway, apart from the bra I personally like the scene with the camp-fire, the music, and animation.

[Dnarris]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zenon wrote...

@Stanley Woo:

Your answering style suggests, that you have no clue and just try to imply we are a filthy lot. Thank you very much for answering aggressively to fans of the game adding their personal opinion on the way the romantic scenes are handled in the game. That helps us to understand.

I am well aware of how thing could have been done. I merely disagree that things should have been done a certain way, since everyone's got a slightly different opinion on how bad the scenes were, different tolerances of nudity and sex in their games, and whether such things can or should be "patched".

Hindsight is always 20/20, and it's much, much easier to criticize the way somehting was done--especially here on the internet--than it is to try and please everyone all the time. As for the aggressive tone: I'm sorry, but I tend to respond in the way people criticize, because, here on the internet, it seems that's the only way some people know how to talk--in terms of absolutes, hyperbole, and a certain level of certainty (read: arrogance).

So the point of most posters here is, that Bioware chose to show a "love" scene with a sensuous touch without blacking out after the initial kiss. Especially with Morrigan the bra looks a bit out of place. I enjoy the game anyway, but still it seems more like a trade-off for US rating and avoiding such ridiculous discussions like the infamous "coffee shop" scene in GTA4 (?) ... (Not sure about which GTA exactly, since I don't have or play this. Saw a vid in youtube and after reading about this outrageous uproar it caused, the actual video of the scene made me laugh my head off.)

I don't know that anything was done as a "trade-off" with Dragon Age. It is a different product than Mass Effect, developed by a different team than Mass Effect, with a different vision than Mass Effect. Personally, while I don't care for the underwear on the models, either, I think the scenes are not terrible. Could they be improved? Absolutely. Should they be improved? Well, no game is perfect, and I generally disagree that we should devote time and effort into something that is merely disagreeable rather than game-breaking.

Bioware has proven with ME already how nicely they can do a well made love scene with a great balance between erotic and romance without becoming too prudish, nor too explicit.

I hope someone else from Bioware, like Mike Laidlaw, reads this too. I quote:
"From the makers of Mass Effect™, Star Wars®: Knights of the Old Republic™, and Baldur's Gate™ comes an epic tale of violence, lust, and betrayal."

The "lust"-part seems to be a lot more restricted than the violence part... We are not trying to flame Bioware, but like to explore this topic and figure out if there is a chance for this kind of art to show a similar level of (virtual) skin as a normal cinema movie does. We are not talking about porn or any of the like.

I love this game also with Morrigan wearing her bra. Besides there probably will be plenty of mods -- probably soon enough some including nudity for those players, who like it. I also have no problem with that. And I think Bioware doesn't either.

My guess is similar to other people's speculation, that Bioware and EA wanted to avoid any public discussion or bad press concerning the nudity part.

I think it's just that whatever decision we make, someone is going to be offended by it or unhappy with it. You can see how people react to us not including more explicit sex and violence in the game. There is no way that we could change (or not change) the game and magically please everyone.

Now, that is more of a response I'd expect from a bioware employee.

As you pointed out this discussion is a practice in futility as it won't influence anyone in one direction or another. However, that doesn't change the fact that players do wish to discuss it.

The say that you "Cannot please all the people all the time" is, of course, true. However, when you decide to participate in a discussion in a negative manner, you can certainly expect it to illicit negative responses in return.

Your post that I quote above has a much more well received impression of your position on the discussion, however.

I for one could go either way in this discussion depending on the context of the continued discussion and the presentation of the content in game. Personally, I think the nudity would have been fine in this game and would have been appropriate rather gratuitous.

I can comprehend and even read into Bioware's motivations for not going with the nudity in the scenes, and it does make sense from a fiscial approach. But, that really is what is important when it comes to Dragon Age isn't it? Its fiscial success?

[Default137]

Yeah.

Thing is, none of us here want to see nudity for the sake of seeing nudity, if I really want to go see naked things, I have this wonderful thing called Google, or I could go to a club, or many other options which are just inherently there, I don't need nudity in my video games just to get off.

However, I am an adult who plays video games to immerse myself in them, to get away from the real world which quite honestly kind of sucks, I play them to become my character and enjoy myself, help other people or whatever, and occasionally I like to do the romances as they are usually quite well written, interestingly done, and in some cases, are so well written I actually enjoy going through them, rather then just doing them for the obligatory sex scene in the end like the perverts you claim us to be would do.

So when I finish the romance, I kind of expect the ending to be just as mature and well done as the romance itself, however in DA:O, its not, the sex scenes are all laughable, they are not tasteful, most of the characters wear more during that scene then they do for the entire game, in many cases there are some serious clipping issues, and it feels more like you guys were going for full nudity during these scenes, then cut out at the last minute.

I think the point of this thread is not that we are all little perverts who want to get our rocks off at the pixelated characters you made Bioware, but rather that we are adults here, and are disappointed the romances that started so great, ended so terribly, if you wanted to end them tastefully, this would not have been difficult, Mass Effect was tasteful, and it didn't need full nudity, Jade Empires cutting out was tasteful and well done as well. Then we get DA which just feels like you were planning to do something there, but switched at the last minute, which really destroys the romances, and destroys the immersion that built up to that point.

Really though, why is this so hard to understand for so many people, to many of us Games are an art that we interact with, its like watching a movie, yet you decide how things work out, have any of you ever seen the movie Titanic? There is a scene in there were one of the main characters poses nude, and it is very well done and very tasteful, and yet nobody complained about that scene, nobody said the people who watched Titanic are all perverts.

So why are the people who want to see more tasteful nudity added to romantic sections of video games suddenly labeled perverts, why are we no-lifers who obviously just can't get any action in the real world, and just want to get nude mods of such and such character to get our rocks off to, sure, some people are like that, but most of the people in this thread seem to just want the romance scenes in DA to actually be romantic, rather then just thrown in for an obligatory sex scene.

*edit* This was written before I saw what you posted Stanley, and I agree, you really can't please everyone, however, is discussion about it really so bad?

Modifié par Default137, 17 novembre 2009 - 12:07 .

[vorianxavier]

Stanley Woo wrote...

 You can see how people react to us not including more explicit sex and violence in the game. There is no way that we could change (or not change) the game and magically please everyone.

Indeed. I definitely don't want MORE violence. Anyone who does scares me a little

Anyway, thank you for the more open response.

[Westbound]

Default137 wrote...
However, I am an adult who plays video games to immerse myself in them, to get away from the real world which quite honestly kind of sucks, I play them to become my character and enjoy myself, help other people or whatever, and occasionally I like to do the romances as they are usually quite well written, interestingly done, and in some cases, are so well written I actually enjoy going through them, rather then just doing them for the obligatory sex scene in the end like the perverts you claim us to be would do.

blah blah blah... blah blah blah.... blah blah blah... I'm an adult and I think video games need to be done better art wise blah blah blah, laughable blah blah blah...

Man, this post just screams aspergers. 

Edit: Hey Bioware, another note. Can you fix this avatar? Doofus is looking in the wrong direction and appears all fuzzy. Like his soul has been converted into a .jpg

Modifié par Westbound, 17 novembre 2009 - 12:14 .

[KOSZOCK]

I think the main problem about those scenes is not the nudity, but the way it looks. I really wouldn't care even if there would be visible genitals or something.

At the point when the bed scene came I was just not able to take the game serious any more and had to laugh, basically because it looked so silly.

[Default137]

Westbound wrote...

Man, this post just screams aspergers. 

Edit: Hey Bioware, another note. Can you fix this avatar? Doofus is looking in the wrong direction and appears all fuzzy. Like his soul has been converted into a .jpg

How nice, insulting someone rather then adding to a conversation, your parents must be proud of you,

Is it wrong to want games to progress past where they are? Through nudity or other things? Our culture as it is right now views gamers as children, and games as something kids do, not something you do after you pass 20 or so, and many people who play games are looked down on by the vast majority of our culture.

Take a look at TV, Movies, or Books, all these mediums can happily be about whatever they want with little to no problem, yet the second a game comes around with "dangerous themes" ( MW2 ), romance ( ME2 ), or any of the other qualities inherent in pretty much every novel/movie/TV show ever made, it has to fight an uphill battle just to get past the ESRB.

[TheMadCat]

It just seems odd that in game where I've seen more scantily clad women then I see in a strip club and hearing and seeing some of the things implied it just seems odd that the one scene which should have shown the most intimacy and most tastefulness ended up being like that. It just seemed like the wrong time to decide to worry about the overly self righteous people it might offend considering what you have up to and past said point.



I understand there are limits and bounds, indeed I and I'm sure the bast majority here would have most likely found it very distasteful if the limits and bounds were shattered, this is a game and a story and not some XXX flick. As I said though it's just odd that this was done as a political appeaser (and yes this is exactly why it was done) when there are quite a few fairly raunchy moments in the game that I would have easily traded away to get a much more well done and intimate love scene. These are easily some of the best romance sub-plots Bioware has done in my opinion and it just seems kind of sad to top it off with that. It wasn't terrible and it wasn't a game breaker, just a rather large disappointment considering the quality of work beforehand.

[Nighteye2]

Infiltrator wrote...
I have to admit it does look stupid for Morrigan having that huge bra when she doesn't wear it otherwise.

Yes, if she isn't going topless during the sex scenes, at least have her wear the same bra she normally wears, instead of putting on her grandmother's bra just for the sex scene...

I've been saying this since before DA:O was released: tasteful full frontal is much better suited for sex scenes than all that underwear. Hollywood movies do it, so why can't Dragon Age?

[Ultramongoose]

I'd support this.

The  characters in this game are hawter than most other games.

/lick

[Westbound]

TheMadCat wrote...
These are easily some of the best romance sub-plots Bioware has done in my opinion and it just seems kind of sad to top it off with that. It wasn't terrible and it wasn't a game breaker, just a rather large disappointment considering the quality of work beforehand. 

Haha, you were let down by a romance scene in a video game?

Anywho~ I am trying to think of previous Bioware titles that you are talking about. I can't remember hardcore romance in Baulders gate and the like. I think, like, one time, I saw in text "You tho slept with the dark elf" or something, but it wasn't burned into my brain as a epic moment in gaming. Mass effect is the only thing I can think of and even then seeing a butt didn't make the scene more exciting or mature then DA.

Here is most of the complaints I hear and it's stupid.

1. "Oh, it looked silly and ruined the moment!" - I'm not sure what "Moment" there was supposed to be. Did you want erotic? Romantic? Sappy? I think all the emotional moments where there. The only comedic thing I can think that happened with any of the love scenes in DA was when my dwarfs facial expressions as Z worked him. That was about it though.

2. "This is supposed to be a dark universe wh- " - Sperg harder.

3. "Morrigan doesn't even wear a bra in-game!" - You know that itchy and scratchy where scratchy plays itchy's rib cage like a xylophone and he strikes the same rib twice but it makes two different noises? Heh... Bio-WHERE is more like it. Word up. 
 

Modifié par Westbound, 17 novembre 2009 - 12:32 .

[Westbound]

Actually, now that I think about it, my only complaint is that you can't get to lay with Sten. Dude must be a bombshell in bed.

[Dnarris]

Westbound wrote...

Haha, you were let down by a romance scene in a video game?

Anywho~ I am trying to think of previous Bioware titles that you are talking about. I can't remember hardcore romance in Baulders gate and the like. I think, like, one time, I saw in text "You tho slept with the dark elf" or something, but it wasn't burned into my brain as a epic moment in gaming. Mass effect is the only thing I can think of and even then seeing a butt didn't make the scene more exciting or mature then DA.

Here is most of the complaints I hear and it's stupid.

1. "Oh, it looked silly and ruined the moment!" - I'm not sure what "Moment" there was supposed to be. Did you want erotic? Romantic? Sappy? I think all the emotional moments where there. The only comedic thing I can think that happened with any of the love scenes in DA was when my dwarfs facial expressions as Z worked him. That was about it though.

2. "This is supposed to be a dark universe wh- " - Sperg harder.

3. "Morrigan doesn't even wear a bra in-game!" - You know that itchy and scratchy where scratchy plays itchy's rib cage like a xylophone and he strikes the same rib twice but it makes two different noises? Heh... Bio-WHERE is more like it. Word up. 
 

So you're basically saying that, for some inexplicable reason, you cannot comprehend the statements other people are making regarding this topic?

You cannot comprehend how someone can be disappointed with the flow or representation of a cinematic?

You cannot comprehend how someone might want see the seen played out in a different manner?

You cannot comprehend how some people feel it may have fit the scene?

Personally, I wanted a scene that I felt flowed well, didn't seem as awkard as the one presented, and I certainly fully support the display of boobies. So there.

Modifié par Dnarris, 17 novembre 2009 - 12:38 .

[addiction21]

Westbound wrote...

Actually, now that I think about it, my only complaint is that you can't get to lay with Sten. Dude must be a bombshell in bed.

I was going to say something but I dont want him hurting me.