270 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

It makes the most sense for a smart Hawke to side with the Templars, even if an Apostate himself. I mean the Seneshal reveals that to become Viscount you have to currey favor with the Templars.. And siding with the mages is pretty much a waste of effort because... Since you cant become Viscount without the Templars, you cant really establish allies for the city so an inevitable Exalted March against mage controlled Kirkwall will result in Chantry Victory. So really its either. Kill the Mages now and stop the exalted march which will result in innocent deaths and probably torture in interrogations.. and the mages will all be killed anyway.. Or side with the Templars, Annul the circle killing a few now but as a result less dying in the long term.
Plus most of the stupid mages turn to Maleficarum anyway.. And the Templars dont bow to you at the end... and its awesome when they bow to you =D But most importantly a revolutionist hawke who wants to bring about mage freedom could far more easily do so with Templar favor and loyalty.
And with the chantry blown up the way it was, the people of kirkwall wont even stand by the mages. So the Mages are kind of screwed no matter what

Thats why I feel siding with the Templars is easily the best and most logical choice..
Opinions? =D

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[MotoSkunkX]

Logical choice yes, right choice no. Blood magic for life! Down with the oppressive circle, chantry and templars!

Disregard my rantings, I'm just upset that everyone keeps acting like using blood magic will immediately turn you into a cackling Tevinter magister with a thing for body mutiliation. The fact that you can be a paragon while using blood magic suggests that this is baloney.

It's even more irritating because you meet so many people who think that treating those with the ability to KILL YOU WITH THEIR BRAINS like subhuman trash couldn't possibly turn out badly.

Remember kids: Magic isn't evil, but people who use it can be! Helpful indicators of a blood mage gone bad include: glowing eyes, odd drawn out laughs at inappropriate times, constantly plotting world domination and talking about how 'inferior' non-mages are, and last but not least making abominations for giggles.

[Cajeb]

My sister is a mage. Don't start none won't be none. You go for her you die

[Rheia]

I think either choice can be justified. Templars under Meredith go too far, you could deduce that after what happened a person of her charisma and infuence -could- convice the chantry that killing every mage everywhere is the right thing to do.

If you play Hawke who doesn't view magic as the blackest curse there is and everyone who uses it are automatically vile, I'd say siding against templars is fairly justifiable.

[Utoryo]

Listen to what Varric says in the epilogue, all the circles in Thedas are lost no matter who you side with (except presumably the Tevinter ones which really aren't the same thing), and the world is on the brink of war anyway. If you sided with the templars, it's because of the Annulment of the Kirkwall circle and the death of all the mages inside. You won't have an opportunity to bring mage freedom by influencing the templars anyway.

So beyond what is right to do, the question is whether you want to succeed at starting a revolution or fail at stopping one. The consequences are severe, and there will probably be unbelievable civilian casualties - so if you feel the revolution is not justified, you're still on the right side of history because you tried to stop the ensuing massacre. No matter what, if one side does ultimately win (which I doubt), then you'll be the hero of that side and the antihero of the other.

Modifié par Utoryo, 13 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Lisa_H]

I plan to side with the templars even if my Hawke is a mage. I think the current system needs to change. The mages certainly deserve more freedom than they have, but I still think there needs to be some kind organization to teach them and make sure they don't abuse their power, but the currect system is too ruthless. But I don't believe that open war with the Chantry is the correct way to go. The Chantry is powerful, and despite it all they do good things as well, as seen in DAO many chantry priests see genuinely concerned about the wellfare of the people. No, a war between mages can only turn out bloody, and it seems many mages are willing to turn to blood magic and demons if they go to war against the Chantry, and if that happens I guess the "normal" people are those that will suffer most. The system must change, but I think the changes can be done in a more peaceful way if my Hawke has the respect and gratitude of the Chantry instead of beeing the enemy.

[The Big Nothing]

I sided with the mages, killed lyrium-mad Meredith, and inspired the uprising of mages all over Thedas.

I like that better.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 13 mars 2011 - 12:08 .

[Cody211282]

This was one of the only things I had to think of for a bit because I thought they both had valid points on why I shouldn't side with the other. The mages in kirkwall tend to start using blood magic and demons the second someone so much as stumbles into them, but most the templars are also ruthless and don't see mages as people(but at least there are a few of them who think mages are good and should be treated right).

On my first game I sided with the mages, and what do I get for sticking up for them, the First Enchanter turns to blood magic and tries to kill me after 2 NPCs die, that basicly led to me saying "screw it your morons can burn next game".

[MotoSkunkX]

Cody211282 wrote...

This was one of the only things I had to think of for a bit because I thought they both had valid points on why I shouldn't side with the other. The mages in kirkwall tend to start using blood magic and demons the second someone so much as stumbles into them, but most the templars are also ruthless and don't see mages as people(but at least there are a few of them who think mages are good and should be treated right).

On my first game I sided with the mages, and what do I get for sticking up for them, the First Enchanter turns to blood magic and tries to kill me after 2 NPCs die, that basicly led to me saying "screw it your morons can burn next game".

He didn't try to kill you.  Orsino died the moment he cast the spell that turned him into a flesh golem.

And to be fair, the room was about to be stormed by hundreds of Templars - he was justified in thinking you were all going to die in a few minutes anyways, and he wanted to at least kill Meredith.

[Cody211282]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

This was one of the only things I had to think of for a bit because I thought they both had valid points on why I shouldn't side with the other. The mages in kirkwall tend to start using blood magic and demons the second someone so much as stumbles into them, but most the templars are also ruthless and don't see mages as people(but at least there are a few of them who think mages are good and should be treated right).

On my first game I sided with the mages, and what do I get for sticking up for them, the First Enchanter turns to blood magic and tries to kill me after 2 NPCs die, that basicly led to me saying "screw it your morons can burn next game".

He didn't try to kill you.  Orsino died the moment he cast the spell that turned him into a flesh golem.

And to be fair, the room was about to be stormed by hundreds of Templars - he was justified in thinking you were all going to die in a few minutes anyways, and he wanted to at least kill Meredith.

Meredith wasn't even there though, he basiclydid all that to try to kill a grand total of of 10 templars. He kept going on about since I'm there they might have a chance and at the first sign of actaul fighting he goes "Well I guess I'll just go crazy and turn myself into some horrble monster you will have to kill, have fun with the templars who wouldn't be after you if it wasn't for stick up for me."

The guy acted like and idiot and contradicted himself(I remember somewere him saying the bloodmagic was evil).

[robwell]

MotoSkunkX you clearly must have missed the part when the changed orsino openly attacks your party right off the bat.... and honestly if he truly believed in the ability of the champion then he would not have been so fearful!

[Minxie]

With my mage Hawke I did both endings... I didn't want her to side with the mages after what happened to Leandra, but in the end I find myself preferring that side over choosing the Templars because killing every single mage in the Circle was just too extreme. I'd rather fight the army of well-trained warriors than systematically execute the mages who probably count children amongst their number.

I also like the mage ending where Hawke and everyone walks away from the city together better than becoming Viscount. I felt like my Hawke was just done with Kirkwall, something she'd been feeling ever since Leandra died.

[MotoSkunkX]

Cody211282 wrote...

Meredith
wasn't even there though, he basiclydid all that to try to kill a grand
total of of 10 templars. He kept going on about since I'm there they
might have a chance and at the first sign of actaul fighting he goes
"Well I guess I'll just go crazy and turn myself into some horrble
monster you will have to kill, have fun with the templars who wouldn't
be after you if it wasn't for stick up for me."

The guy acted like and idiot and contradicted himself(I remember somewere him saying the bloodmagic was evil).

He knew that Meredith was coming along with a bajillion templars, and that was his end-game gambit.  However, he was an idiot if he thought he'd maintain control once he turned himself into a disgusting flesh golem.  I highly doubt that was his intention.  I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, or even a moderately non-idiotic thing to do, merely that he felt cornered(remember that mage you saw early on in the city who turned herself into an abomination because she was about to get templar shanked?  Yeah, that.  Fueled by endless RAGE and the mad skills of a first enchanter), and did the only thing he could do that might have a chance of seeing him last long enough to kill that evil woman.

As far as turning yourself into a hideous abomination?  Not the smartest of moves in any situation.

robwell wrote...

MotoSkunkX you clearly must have missed the part when the changed orsino openly attacks your party right off the bat.... and honestly if he truly believed in the ability of the champion then he would not have been so fearful!

Orsino died.  That flesh golem monstrosity that he turned himself into?  Not Orsino.  

Honestly I don't blame him for thinking a handful of people didn't stand a chance against an entire Templar army when they've already been cornered into a tiny room.

[nenosronhir]

fhdjksalnjghfjkdas I am seriously never going to be able to side with the Templars in Kirkwall.



No, just-- no. D:

[Cody211282]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

Meredith
wasn't even there though, he basiclydid all that to try to kill a grand
total of of 10 templars. He kept going on about since I'm there they
might have a chance and at the first sign of actaul fighting he goes
"Well I guess I'll just go crazy and turn myself into some horrble
monster you will have to kill, have fun with the templars who wouldn't
be after you if it wasn't for stick up for me."

The guy acted like and idiot and contradicted himself(I remember somewere him saying the bloodmagic was evil).

He knew that Meredith was coming along with a bajillion templars, and that was his end-game gambit.  However, he was an idiot if he thought he'd maintain control once he turned himself into a disgusting flesh golem.  I highly doubt that was his intention.  I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, or even a moderately non-idiotic thing to do, merely that he felt cornered(remember that mage you saw early on in the city who turned herself into an abomination because she was about to get templar shanked?  Yeah, that.  Fueled by endless RAGE and the mad skills of a first enchanter), and did the only thing he could do that might have a chance of seeing him last long enough to kill that evil woman.

As far as turning yourself into a hideous abomination?  Not the smartest of moves in any situation.

robwell wrote...

MotoSkunkX you clearly must have missed the part when the changed orsino openly attacks your party right off the bat.... and honestly if he truly believed in the ability of the champion then he would not have been so fearful!

Orsino died.  That flesh golem monstrosity that he turned himself into?  Not Orsino.  

Honestly I don't blame him for thinking a handful of people didn't stand a chance against an entire Templar army when they've already been cornered into a tiny room.

If that was his plan all along then I'm even more pissed about siding with him, I though "Hey not all mages are evil blood magic using crazys there is no need to kill them, this isnt even as bad as the tower in DA:O yet" then he goes and proves everything the templars had been saying about mages from the start, none of them are above blood magic are are just waiting for an excuse to use it.Between him and Anders the game change my veiws from "Mages are people and should be free to do what they want" to "Most of them just want to abuse their power".

[ragnaven]

Cornered in a tiny room is the one place a hand full of people can fight an entire army. With those small corridors their numbers count for nothing, all the mages needed to do was not be stupid and fight. Hawke had 4 fighters an archer and two mages backing him, if Orsino and his people had just been smart, maybe thrown up that line o fire spell, that some how only bethany knows and only knows when leaving lothering, they could have held the templars back while Hawke and the others formed a line.

Then it is just a matter of keeping them healed and buffed while they force the templars to fight them through a doorway. Sure the templars can eventually besiege the circle and destroy the building, but by then maybe someone would have managed to get over to another city and a different knight commander who might have gone, she is doin what? Then came ridding up to bring some order to everything.

Meradith has her little freak out infront of some other knight commander then they just blaim it all on the idol and move on.

[KenKenpachi]

I still don't get why many scream MAGE FREEDOM on here. Lets put this **** into perspective, lets say I ****ed up the human genome where say 1 in 1000 births had some sort of nanites that had a human given such powers, given we think/know magic is not real, although Energy is Energy, I use mechanical means and that allows these people to shoot out lightning, set fires, lift things with ones mind. Or even just mutate an arm into a self replinishing automatic assault rifle.

HOWEVER I also add that on the slightest sign of mental or emotional weakness the nanites can be triggerd into over growing the host, turning them into a mindless monsterious walking weapon of death and destruction, with said powers pressed to the threashold. where basically it would take a platoon of Military Infantrymen, or a squad of tanks to take one out.

Would you want such people running around given human nature to turn to its base? Such people have good uses, but just like a rapid dog I would not want it in the same town just walking around on matters of political thought.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 13 mars 2011 - 01:37 .

[MotoSkunkX]

Cody211282 wrote...

If that was his plan all along then I'm even more pissed about siding with him, I though "Hey not all mages are evil blood magic using crazys there is no need to kill them, this isnt even as bad as the tower in DA:O yet" then he goes and proves everything the templars had been saying about mages from the start, none of them are above blood magic are are just waiting for an excuse to use it.Between him and Anders the game change my veiws from "Mages are people and should be free to do what they want" to "Most of them just want to abuse their power".

Noooo!  Not all along!  Just when it looked like all was lost!  He decided to take as many of them with him as he could, I don't think he knew exactly what would happen.  He couldn't have known that he'd turn on you.

Also blood magic isn't inherently bad.  Yes, most blood magic users tend to have an overabundance of bats in the belfry, but not all of them.  Take.. Merrill for example.  Even that whole thing with her Keeper and her Clan was ENTIRELY THEIR FAULT.  They never would have died if they hadn't been such colossal jerks or in the Keeper's case, all high and mighty. 

Anders had the right idea.  He also went about it the right way.  Sit around and watch mages continued to be treated like they're less than people, or force a confrontation that will either end in freedom or death?  Not exactly a choice, if you ask me.

As far as so many mages turning to blood magic, I think it's less power hungry and more kicking the dog so many times that it makes deals with demons just to get you to stop kicking it.

ragnaven wrote...

Cornered in a tiny room is the one place a hand full of people can fight an entire army. With those small corridors their numbers count for nothing, all the mages needed to do was not be stupid and fight. Hawke had 4 fighters an archer and two mages backing him, if Orsino and his people had just been smart, maybe thrown up that line o fire spell, that some how only bethany knows and only knows when leaving lothering, they could have held the templars back while Hawke and the others formed a line.

Hey, I never said Orsino wasn't an idiot.

[Cuthlan]

If logic were a concern, the destruction of the Chantry never would have caused a conflict between the mages and the Circle, because it wasn't a Circle mage that caused it. It would have cemented the Templar's power over the mages because it would have given them something to point at and say "See? This is what happens with mages we don't control". And the Circle mages would have bowed and done anything they could to survive, just like Orsino tried to do when the battle started.

But this isn't about logic or reason.

[MotoSkunkX]

KenKenpachi wrote...

I still don't get why many scream MAGE FREEDOM on here. Lets put this **** into perspective, lets say I ****ed up the human genome where say 1 in 1000 births had some sort of nanites that had a human given such powers, given we thing magic is not real, although Energy is Energy, I use mechanical means and that allows these people to shoot out lightning, set fires, lift things with ones mind. Or even just mutate an arm into a self replinishing automatic assault rifle.

HOWEVER I also add that on the slightest sign of mental or emotional weakness the nanites can be triggerd into over growing the host, turning them into a mindless monsterious walking weapon of death and destruction, with said powers pressed to the freash hold, where basically it would take a platoon of Military Infantrymen, or a squad of tanks to take one out.

Would you want such people running around given human nature to turn to its base? Such people have good uses, but just like a rapid dog I would not want it in the same town just walking around on matters of political thought.

Herein lies the problem.  You're treating people who can kill you with their mind like they're not people.  You then expect this to not backfire SPECTACULARLY.  Your only options are:

1) Treat them like they're less than people.  Case in point: Circle of Magi and their Templar pals.  This will backfire and end up with the oppressed people rising up and deciding that maybe, just maybe, since they're the ones who can kill people with their brains - that they should be the ones doing the oppressing.  Congratulations, you just gave a group of super-powered humans a justified god complex to go along with their feeling of victimization.  I hope you're proud of yourself.

2) Kill them all.  Naturally, it's rather hard to maintain the moral high ground if you do this, and they're probably not just going to sit back and take it.  See #1 for results.

3) Give them the same rights as every body else.  Lock up/kill the bad ones who commit crime just like normal people do.  Yes you will have issues with the crazies, but that's rather preferable to having issues with all of them in general.  You also get to keep the moral high ground, go you!

[KenKenpachi]

Meh the high moral ground is good for one thing only.

Spotter positions for Artillery.

I was reffering it to a no win situation, but some regulation is needed. Martial artists arn't allowed to go into the street (legaly) and be batman. Every society has rules to protect the weak from the strong. But thats another issue all together. The point is, I'm not saying treat them as subhuman, but some oversite, or at least a community for them would be needed. Would you want someone like that working a typical everyday job, where if provoked he becomes a beserker? Just because they are kept out of eye site, ot placed into a special military detachment is not just to protect the masses.

It can be used to protect them. Mages though powerful can be killed. And those who don't understand them WOULD sooner or later rise up, and with my genome that would mean 1000-to-1 odds. They would be wiped out. At least I would make use of them, more than the chantry ever did at least. But morals of the Human rights varaint is a luxury more often than not

Edit

I would see a use for them but you need someone to watch them, but people who arn't dicks, even our cops and soldiers have someone watching them, even the common people, so why not living machines of destruction?

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 13 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[nenosronhir]

Keep in mind Templars are equipped specifically to deal with mages; they're capable of dispelling effects, are extremely resistant to magic itself due to the lyrium they ingest - there's a reason mages fear Templars, more than just because they hold the proverbial leash. Mages are ill-equipped to fight Templars.

It makes perfect sense that all those mages die in the opening fight a) because they're nowhere near as battle-hardened and disciplined as the attacking Templars they've been conditioned their entire lives to fear these men and c) because the Templars have abilities that put them in a distinct advantage against mages. It would not surprise me if Blood Magic WAS the only way mages could win a battle against them; turning them against one another.

Unfortunately, few mages seem capable of retaining their sense of self and rejecting demonic influences when they begin to channel Blood Magic. *sigh* If only mages would turn to OTHER ancient forbidden arts - like the Arcane Warrior, or shapeshifting! *shakes fist at my Amell* Why are you not spreading this knowledge, silly Warden! *grumble*

Anyway, back on-topic; yes, the pragmatic, survivalist (or just an ambitious) Hawke would probably choose the Templars.

[rumination888]

Minxie18 wrote...

With my mage Hawke I did both endings... I didn't want her to side with the mages after what happened to Leandra, but in the end I find myself preferring that side over choosing the Templars because killing every single mage in the Circle was just too extreme. I'd rather fight the army of well-trained warriors than systematically execute the mages who probably count children amongst their number.

I also like the mage ending where Hawke and everyone walks away from the city together better than becoming Viscount. I felt like my Hawke was just done with Kirkwall, something she'd been feeling ever since Leandra died.

I never killed every single mage in the circle when I sided with the Templars.

I had the option to spare a bunch of unpossessed mages. I sided with the Templars hoping the game would give me that option. Infact, excluding the aforementioned mages, Merill and Bethany, every other person I fought and killed leading up to the ending was possessed.... including Anders(possessed by Justice) and Meredith(possessed by the idol).

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Siding with the Templars was the most logical choice given the context of the situation.

[nenosronhir]

rumination888 wrote...

Minxie18 wrote...

With my mage Hawke I did both endings... I didn't want her to side with the mages after what happened to Leandra, but in the end I find myself preferring that side over choosing the Templars because killing every single mage in the Circle was just too extreme. I'd rather fight the army of well-trained warriors than systematically execute the mages who probably count children amongst their number.

I also like the mage ending where Hawke and everyone walks away from the city together better than becoming Viscount. I felt like my Hawke was just done with Kirkwall, something she'd been feeling ever since Leandra died.

I never killed every single mage in the circle when I sided with the Templars.

I had the option to spare a bunch of unpossessed mages. I sided with the Templars hoping the game would give me that option. Infact, excluding the aforementioned mages, Merill and Bethany, every other person I fought and killed leading up to the ending was possessed.... including Anders(possessed by Justice) and Meredith(possessed by the idol).

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Siding with the Templars was the most logical choice given the context of the situation.

Wait, context of what situation? Mages in Kirkwall spending upwards of 7 years in a position where they could be made mindless slaves for the slightest transgression, fabricated or otherwise? Given that context alone I side with the mages in a heartbeat, blown-up Chantry or no. The possessed ones have given everything they are to kill the Templars who have wronged them for years now - have killed or enslaved their friends, loved ones, have made them live in fear of who they are and what they can do.

From the sounds of it, many were locked in their chambers; if this was the case, how were they supposed to be taught to nuture their talents and learn resistance to demonic influences when they probably barely have control of their own abilities? For that matter, I wonder how many were actually Harrowed; would Meredith even condone the ceremony that purposefully exposes a mage to a demon?

As much as I hate blood magic and everything it stands for, what the Templars have done is inexcusable, and the mages are left with no choice. There needs to be another way - one not dictated by the Chantry, and the possibility of that is what Anders creates.

[Nathan Redgrave]

There is no "right" choice. Like the grand cleric says, both sides make good points. That Knight-Commander Meredith overdid the whole "stamping down on the mages" thing is the only definite point, and that because she was influenced by a magic relic, practically an abomination herself. O, the irony.

A running theme in the game is that blood magic leads to disaster, but that backing mages into a corner causes them to resort to blood magic and turning to demons anyway. In short: mages were a danger, but going too far only made things worse.

The ideal situation would have been peaceful compromise, but between Meredith's madness and Anders's deliberate actions to stop compromise from occurring, that just wasn't there. So when pressed for a choice, Hawke has to decide between prioritizing the rights of mages or the prevention of dangerous magic. It's a nasty, no-win decision. There's good and bad on both sides of the fence.

It's refreshing, really. In Origins or Mass Effect, you generally have one clearly evil force you have to defeat, and it's a matter of choosing to do things Paragon or Renegade. You can argue the case for Renegade, but most of the time Paragon produces more desirable results. DA2's big moral dilemma doesn't provide that underlying layer of simplicity.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 13 mars 2011 - 02:26 .