270 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Obvious]

This whole discussion is pointless. With such a lousy, pitiful ending to the story, it doesn't matter who you side with or why.

[KenKenpachi]

You know the above is right and couldn't this all have been avoided with a Knight Commander who was less of an ass? Hell it seems like in place of taking a side, well till Anders screwed **** up, we could have just killed one knight commander and part of the problem is solved.

[nenosronhir]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

There is no "right" choice. Like the grand cleric says, both sides make good points. That Knight-Commander Meredith overdid the whole "stamping down on the mages" thing is the only definite point, and that because she was influenced by a magic relic, practically an abomination herself. O, the irony.

A running theme in the game is that blood magic leads to disaster, but that backing mages into a corner causes them to resort to blood magic and turning to demons anyway. In short: mages were a danger, but going too far only made things worse.

The ideal situation would have been peaceful compromise, but between Meredith's madness and Anders's deliberate actions to stop compromise from occurring, that just wasn't there. So when pressed for a choice, Hawke has to decide between making the rights of mages or the prevention of dangerous magic. It's a nasty, no-win decision. There's good and bad on both sides of the fence.

It's refreshing, really. In Origins or Mass Effect, you generally have one clearly evil force you have to defeat, and it's a matter of choosing to do things Paragon or Renegade. You can argue the case for Renegade, but most of the time Paragon produces more desirable results. DA2's big moral dilemma doesn't provide that underlying layer of simplicity.

I disagree. I disagree for a whole slew of reasons, but mostly because the compromise would be handed down by the Chantry, and the Divine will never let mages mind themselves (and I believe that given the chance, mages would come down harder and with a lasting effect on their own for using Blood Magic than the Templars could ever manage).

[Nathan Redgrave]

Darth Obvious wrote...

This whole discussion is pointless. With such a lousy, pitiful ending to the story, it doesn't matter who you side with or why.

Why hello there, Subjective Scorn, how are you this evening? Have I told you that you're not the center of the universe yet?

[Nathan Redgrave]

nenosronhir wrote...
I disagree. I disagree for a whole slew of reasons, but mostly because the compromise would be handed down by the Chantry, and the Divine will never let mages mind themselves (and I believe that given the chance, mages would come down harder and with a lasting effect on their own for using Blood Magic than the Templars could ever manage).

That's what an oppressed mage contemplating the merits of open rebellion would say.

Hell, that's probably what Anders would say.

But you misunderstand. I said "ideal," not "realistic." It has nothing to do with whether it was actually possible. If it fits at the end of an "in a perfect world" sentence, then it's an ideal solution. Had the Templars in Kirkwall, and the Chantry as a whole, re-evaluated the merits of their control on the mages and worked with the Circles for a better system, then that would have been the ideal solution. Instead, they have to club each other with nail bats, because that's the uncivilized, realistic solution.

[Red_warning]

I felt like all the choice in the end were wrong, I liked none of them and simply went with the mages because I thought the templars had brought all the chaos upon themselves by being tyrants. It still ended with pretty much everybody dying anyway.

[Augustei]

nenosronhir wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Minxie18 wrote...

With my mage Hawke I did both endings... I didn't want her to side with the mages after what happened to Leandra, but in the end I find myself preferring that side over choosing the Templars because killing every single mage in the Circle was just too extreme. I'd rather fight the army of well-trained warriors than systematically execute the mages who probably count children amongst their number.

I also like the mage ending where Hawke and everyone walks away from the city together better than becoming Viscount. I felt like my Hawke was just done with Kirkwall, something she'd been feeling ever since Leandra died.

I never killed every single mage in the circle when I sided with the Templars.

I had the option to spare a bunch of unpossessed mages. I sided with the Templars hoping the game would give me that option. Infact, excluding the aforementioned mages, Merill and Bethany, every other person I fought and killed leading up to the ending was possessed.... including Anders(possessed by Justice) and Meredith(possessed by the idol).

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Siding with the Templars was the most logical choice given the context of the situation.

Wait, context of what situation? Mages in Kirkwall spending upwards of 7 years in a position where they could be made mindless slaves for the slightest transgression, fabricated or otherwise? Given that context alone I side with the mages in a heartbeat, blown-up Chantry or no. The possessed ones have given everything they are to kill the Templars who have wronged them for years now - have killed or enslaved their friends, loved ones, have made them live in fear of who they are and what they can do.

From the sounds of it, many were locked in their chambers; if this was the case, how were they supposed to be taught to nuture their talents and learn resistance to demonic influences when they probably barely have control of their own abilities? For that matter, I wonder how many were actually Harrowed; would Meredith even condone the ceremony that purposefully exposes a mage to a demon?

As much as I hate blood magic and everything it stands for, what the Templars have done is inexcusable, and the mages are left with no choice. There needs to be another way - one not dictated by the Chantry, and the possibility of that is what Anders creates.

The situation is that even if you side with these mages, regardless of how they have been treated or that they are innocent.. They are all going to die anyway because an Exalted March will be declaired against Kirkwall as Leliana said on the quest with Sebastian given by the grand cleric. And Hawke is powerless to stop it if he sides against the Templars because he cannot become Viscount without their support.. So if he sides with the mages, he is condemning them to death, as well as the city of kirkwall. The people of Kirkwall will riot at the thought of mage rule anyway since the Grand Cleric was killed by a mage and the mages will cop all the blame of the chantry incident regardless of them not really being involved.. So how will the mages and people of kirkwall defend themselves against an Exalted March with riots and rebellion in the streets, and without the ability to obtain allies? 

Siding with Mages = Death of both the templars, the mages, and the people of Kirkwall
Siding with Templars = only the deaths of the mages.

That is why siding with the Templars is the better choice

[Augustei]

Darth Obvious wrote...

This whole discussion is pointless. With such a lousy, pitiful ending to the story, it doesn't matter who you side with or why.

Oh gee thanks, I was just wondering what your opinion was of the game.... Seriously though, nobody cares about your opinion of irrelevency to this topic.. Your WRONG opinion btw. but your entitled to one none the less I suppose.. but since its not related to the topic go make a sob thread like the others.. And if you decide to continuie to rant in this topic.. then im gonna have to ask you to STFU AND GTFO!!!!

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[rma2110]

I think it would much easier to make changes by working within the system. Support the Templars and become Viscount, then you have Kirkwall the guards behind you. Meredith is a illyrium addicted nut job and needs the go. I liked the leader of the chantry, and she is the only one who seems reasonable.

The Templar order needs new leadership. A leadership that is more fair and reasonable. A mage revolution would cost too many innocent lives, and I would only go for if my Hawke were a mage.

[Augustei]

rma2110 wrote...

I think it would much easier to make changes by working within the system. Support the Templars and become Viscount, then you have Kirkwall the guards behind you. Meredith is a illyrium addicted nut job and needs the go. I liked the leader of the chantry, and she is the only one who seems reasonable.

The Templar order needs new leadership. A leadership that is more fair and reasonable. A mage revolution would cost too many innocent lives, and I would only go for if my Hawke were a mage.

Yeah this pretty much, and if you side with the templars you have their respect as well.. which is awesome =D

[nenosronhir]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...
I disagree. I disagree for a whole slew of reasons, but mostly because the compromise would be handed down by the Chantry, and the Divine will never let mages mind themselves (and I believe that given the chance, mages would come down harder and with a lasting effect on their own for using Blood Magic than the Templars could ever manage).

That's what an oppressed mage contemplating the merits of open rebellion would say.

Hell, that's probably what Anders would say.

But you misunderstand. I said "ideal," not "realistic." It has nothing to do with whether it was actually possible. If it fits at the end of an "in a perfect world" sentence, then it's an ideal solution. Had the Templars in Kirkwall, and the Chantry as a whole, re-evaluated the merits of their control on the mages and worked with the Circles for a better system, then that would have been the ideal solution. Instead, they have to club each other with nail bats, because that's the uncivilized, realistic solution.

*grin* Did I mention I love Anders/Vengeance?

And duly noted, ser; I'll drink to that. It wouldn't be nearly as entertaining without the nail bats, though. :<

[nenosronhir]

XxDeonxX wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Minxie18 wrote...

With my mage Hawke I did both endings... I didn't want her to side with the mages after what happened to Leandra, but in the end I find myself preferring that side over choosing the Templars because killing every single mage in the Circle was just too extreme. I'd rather fight the army of well-trained warriors than systematically execute the mages who probably count children amongst their number.

I also like the mage ending where Hawke and everyone walks away from the city together better than becoming Viscount. I felt like my Hawke was just done with Kirkwall, something she'd been feeling ever since Leandra died.

I never killed every single mage in the circle when I sided with the Templars.

I had the option to spare a bunch of unpossessed mages. I sided with the Templars hoping the game would give me that option. Infact, excluding the aforementioned mages, Merill and Bethany, every other person I fought and killed leading up to the ending was possessed.... including Anders(possessed by Justice) and Meredith(possessed by the idol).

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Siding with the Templars was the most logical choice given the context of the situation.

Wait, context of what situation? Mages in Kirkwall spending upwards of 7 years in a position where they could be made mindless slaves for the slightest transgression, fabricated or otherwise? Given that context alone I side with the mages in a heartbeat, blown-up Chantry or no. The possessed ones have given everything they are to kill the Templars who have wronged them for years now - have killed or enslaved their friends, loved ones, have made them live in fear of who they are and what they can do.

From the sounds of it, many were locked in their chambers; if this was the case, how were they supposed to be taught to nuture their talents and learn resistance to demonic influences when they probably barely have control of their own abilities? For that matter, I wonder how many were actually Harrowed; would Meredith even condone the ceremony that purposefully exposes a mage to a demon?

As much as I hate blood magic and everything it stands for, what the Templars have done is inexcusable, and the mages are left with no choice. There needs to be another way - one not dictated by the Chantry, and the possibility of that is what Anders creates.

The situation is that even if you side with these mages, regardless of how they have been treated or that they are innocent.. They are all going to die anyway because an Exalted March will be declaired against Kirkwall as Leliana said on the quest with Sebastian given by the grand cleric. And Hawke is powerless to stop it if he sides against the Templars because he cannot become Viscount without their support.. So if he sides with the mages, he is condemning them to death, as well as the city of kirkwall. The people of Kirkwall will riot at the thought of mage rule anyway since the Grand Cleric was killed by a mage and the mages will cop all the blame of the chantry incident regardless of them not really being involved.. So how will the mages and people of kirkwall defend themselves against an Exalted March with riots and rebellion in the streets, and without the ability to obtain allies? 

Siding with Mages = Death of both the templars, the mages, and the people of Kirkwall
Siding with Templars = only the deaths of the mages.

That is why siding with the Templars is the better choice

The mage rebellion does not end at Kirkwall, if I'm gleaning information from what Varric says during the epilogue correctly. The mages who escape Kirkwall incite similar rebellions in Circles all across Thedas; it is not only Kirkwall the Divine needs to worry about. Also, it seems like the Seekers/Templars branch off from the Chantry to devote themselves to hunting the mages, so it may not even be that the Divine declares a march (I... really need to replay the ending, I'm scrounging from a half-baked sleep-deprived memory, haha).

I'm also not really sure if the mages would want to rule anything - they're fighting for freedom, not rulership, as far as I can tell. I'm not even sure if mages remain in Kirkwall (Varric says they escape and go to other circles, Hawke/Anders/Merrill/Bethany scatter to the four winds).

Keep in mind I haven't played the Templar ending yet, does Varric say anything similar about the mages inciting rebellions in other Circles in that one?

[TJPags]

nenosronhir wrote...

fhdjksalnjghfjkdas I am seriously never going to be able to side with the Templars in Kirkwall.

<snip>

No, just-- no. D:

I didn't see this - or get this conversation.  Maybe I'll need to pay more attention.

For me, it was a tough choice, but not for the reasons most people have discussed.  My problem was, I didn't know what was going on!!!!

Here's my rogue Hawke, who comes back from the Deep Roads at the end of Act I to find out my sister is getting dragged off to the Chantry.  By a Templar who I helped.  That pissed me off.  But then I get a letter from her, and she seems thrilled to be there.  And I remember her expressing that she thinks maybe she should have gone anyway.  So I'm less pissed.

Then I start hearing rumors about the Templars cracking down on mages, and Meredith being on some insane hunt for blood mages.  It gets worse as time goes on.  But everywhere I turn, I'm being attacked by blood mages raising abominations.  The only Templar abuse I see is Anders telling about the tranquil solution, which the Grand Cleric tells me was suggested and refused, and that one insane Templar, who I kill, and who everyone - even Cullen - tells me was acting on his own.

Still unsure, I start Act II with a letter from my sister's friend - who I saved from Ser Alrik - who seems happy.  Anders keeps telling abuse stories, but he seems more unstable.  I'm starting to think now maybe he's the source of these rumors and this unrest.  Then he gives me this plan to find crystalized urine and feces and some dragondust or whatever.  I agree to do that.  Along the way, Meredith asks me to track down some missing mages, one of whom is a kid who wants to get laid, the other turn being blood mages who attack me - one murders his own wife before doing so.

More rumors of Meredith being unreasonable, more attacks from rogue blood mages in the street.  Orsino sends me to check on some rumored meeting of mages and Templars unhappy with Meredith, and they attack me on sight.  I find out about another meeting, and go there - THEY attack me on sight, again raising abominations in the process.  I find out they kidnapped my sister to make me help them.  That's nice of them - didn't know they needed help, since they never asked me.

I go to get sis, and while the Templar - Trask - is ready to give her back, the mage who's life I spared earlier in the game turn demon on me, screams about killing my sister then me, and everyone attacks me.  Then Anders wants me to distract the Grand Cleric while he does his little ritual - after lying and saying it was just a potion - and I say no, and he goes nuts.

So, in my game, I'm hearing rumors of abuse from Templars which don't seem to be true - even Cullen, who had an epilogue slide after Origins basically saying he turned into a homicidal maniac and didn't seem to stable at all in Origins seemed to be a rational guy who took his job seriously, but did it fairly - and mages who turn to blood magic and raising demons every time the wind changes direction.  I'm all ready to agree with Meredith and lock down the Tower, sister - who I haven't SEEN since Act I - be damned.

Until Anders blows up the Chantry, and Meredith, while not even talking about killing him or arresting him or even giving him a stern talking to wants to kill all the Circle mages.  Ummm, they didn't do it.  Orsino suggests locking up all the mages and interrogating them one by one to see who is a blood mage.  Meredith says no, they destroyed the Chantry, kill them all.  Ummm, THEY DIDN'T DO IT.

For that reason alone, I sided with the mages.  In my world, we don't kill a bunch of innocent people in response to the killing of other innocent people, while not even saying boo to the one who started the killing of innocents.  I felt bad, because I didn't see anything in my game that made the Templars so bad, but I figured they had the choice to back off if they wanted, and leave Meredith on her own.  I also saw plenty of evidence that Meredith was right, and the mages in Kirkwall were a bunch of blood magic using, demon raising idiots who deserved to be wiped out - but not all of them.

Now, I wish I'd seen slides like this one before . . .might have made the same choice, but for different reasons.

Oh, and my Hawke couldn't give a nugs arse about Kirkwall . . .let the damned City burn in hell for all I care.

[Domitrix]

Has nothing to do with right or wrong choices for me. For me it was about one thing and one thing only: The Templars had abused their power in the most heinous ways I could imagine to force these mages into becoming that what they feared most.

It's all the Templar's fault. Period. I couldn't side with them even with my warrior playthrough. Meredith has no grip on reality anymore. She will kill innocents to supposedly 'save' innocents, and that's simply wrong. Meredith's handling of the Circle was horrible and, honestly, I'm not really sure how anyone could side with her.

That said, Anders has to die too. I let him live once and it felt... wrong.

[SnowHeart1]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

Disregard my rantings, I'm just upset that everyone keeps acting like using blood magic will immediately turn you into a cackling Tevinter magister with a thing for body mutiliation. The fact that you can be a paragon while using blood magic suggests that this is baloney.

I agree with you, although apparently the writers do not. I really began to find this absurd. Every mage of significance is either a blood mage, an abomination or turns to blood magic in a fit of pique. Fenris' arguments against magic are true if only because the writers arbitrarily made it so. There were much better pro-mage arguments to be made than "Meredith is pushing them to take these drastic measures, so it's her fault they're all blood mages." Another point of disappointment with the story for me. (Again, I am enjoying the game despite its warts, but... sigh.) Anyway, yes, siding with the templars is the only logical choice, even if that's based only on the game's logic.

[Minxie]

rumination888 wrote...

Minxie18 wrote...

With my mage Hawke I did both endings... I didn't want her to side with the mages after what happened to Leandra, but in the end I find myself preferring that side over choosing the Templars because killing every single mage in the Circle was just too extreme. I'd rather fight the army of well-trained warriors than systematically execute the mages who probably count children amongst their number.

I also like the mage ending where Hawke and everyone walks away from the city together better than becoming Viscount. I felt like my Hawke was just done with Kirkwall, something she'd been feeling ever since Leandra died.

I never killed every single mage in the circle when I sided with the Templars.

I had the option to spare a bunch of unpossessed mages. I sided with the Templars hoping the game would give me that option. Infact, excluding the aforementioned mages, Merill and Bethany, every other person I fought and killed leading up to the ending was possessed.... including Anders(possessed by Justice) and Meredith(possessed by the idol).

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Siding with the Templars was the most logical choice given the context of the situation.

That's true, but what I was suggesting was that you don't know how many other mages were killed by Templars in the Gallows or throughout the city. That was a tiny handful who were lucky enough to come across Hawke before the Templars found them. It seems like the devs decided not to include many children in the game for resource reasons, but that of course doesn't mean they weren't around and that some weren't killed by Templars off-screen.

nenosronhir wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The situation is that even if you side with these mages, regardless of how they have been treated or that they are innocent.. They are all going to die anyway because an Exalted March will be declaired against Kirkwall as Leliana said on the quest with Sebastian given by the grand cleric. And Hawke is powerless to stop it if he sides against the Templars because he cannot become Viscount without their support.. So if he sides with the mages, he is condemning them to death, as well as the city of kirkwall. The people of Kirkwall will riot at the thought of mage rule anyway since the Grand Cleric was killed by a mage and the mages will cop all the blame of the chantry incident regardless of them not really being involved.. So how will the mages and people of kirkwall defend themselves against an Exalted March with riots and rebellion in the streets, and without the ability to obtain allies? 

Siding with Mages = Death of both the templars, the mages, and the people of Kirkwall
Siding with Templars = only the deaths of the mages.

That is why siding with the Templars is the better choice

The mage rebellion does not end at Kirkwall, if I'm gleaning information from what Varric says during the epilogue correctly. The mages who escape Kirkwall incite similar rebellions in Circles all across Thedas; it is not only Kirkwall the Divine needs to worry about. Also, it seems like the Seekers/Templars branch off from the Chantry to devote themselves to hunting the mages, so it may not even be that the Divine declares a march (I... really need to replay the ending, I'm scrounging from a half-baked sleep-deprived memory, haha).

I'm also not really sure if the mages would want to rule anything - they're fighting for freedom, not rulership, as far as I can tell. I'm not even sure if mages remain in Kirkwall (Varric says they escape and go to other circles, Hawke/Anders/Merrill/Bethany scatter to the four winds).

Keep in mind I haven't played the Templar ending yet, does Varric say anything similar about the mages inciting rebellions in other Circles in that one?

Yeah, I thought the ending implied that the Chantry was in no position to be declaring Exalted Marches against anyone.

[rumination888]

nenosronhir wrote...

Wait, context of what situation? Mages in Kirkwall spending upwards of 7 years in a position where they could be made mindless slaves for the slightest transgression, fabricated or otherwise? Given that context alone I side with the mages in a heartbeat, blown-up Chantry or no. The possessed ones have given everything they are to kill the Templars who have wronged them for years now - have killed or enslaved their friends, loved ones, have made them live in fear of who they are and what they can do.

From the sounds of it, many were locked in their chambers; if this was the case, how were they supposed to be taught to nuture their talents and learn resistance to demonic influences when they probably barely have control of their own abilities? For that matter, I wonder how many were actually Harrowed; would Meredith even condone the ceremony that purposefully exposes a mage to a demon?

As much as I hate blood magic and everything it stands for, what the Templars have done is inexcusable, and the mages are left with no choice. There needs to be another way - one not dictated by the Chantry, and the possibility of that is what Anders creates.

You are doing the exact same thing that Anders has been complaining about throughout the game - that the actions of one person(mage, templar, whatever) cannot be used to paint the entire group in the same color.

The context of the situation was that there were a significant number of Templars who were tired of Meredith, conspired with mages within the Circle, and were on the verge of overthrowing her and any of her more fanatical followers. That was the last quest before the final choice leading up to the end, in case you had forgotten.

The Templars are the attackers, and the mages are the defenders. Either you side with the mages and run the risk of killing the aformentioned Templars, or you side with the Templars and spare any unpossessed mage you find. The logical choice is clear.

Modifié par rumination888, 13 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[LobselVith8]

@ OP, why would I want to be Viscount when you're merely a pawn of the Order of Templars? I prefer heading off with Merrill and my dog into the Free Marches as a hero of the mages. Being a pawn of the templars as Viscount doesn't sound too thrilling to me. It's been that way for many years now, and I doubt Hawke will change that when Cullen is the one who places you as the new "leader" of Kirkwall. I don't think I could endorse the senseless murder of men, women, and children because they're mages. I'd rather give mages a fighting chance and help them free themselves from slavery.

[Noviere]

Domitrix wrote...

That said, Anders has to die too. I let him live once and it felt... wrong.

This. I just finished my first playthrough, and I ran away with him in the end... but it just felt wrong. The choice I made felt out of character, even for my anti-templar apostate who was in love with Anders. I won't make the same decision on my next character.

I also had similar reservations about saving Isabella from the Arishok, too... Her greed killed a lot of people, but at least she did the right thing in the end. Still, killing the Arishok didn't feel like justice to me(and was damn hard with my mage!).

[Domitrix]

Life is not about logic, life is about emotions. Our emotions color our choices and make us who we are. Logic is just a tool to be used by those who twist it to their ends. Such as this:

Supposition A) When pushing mages hard enough with torture, interrogation, lack of basic rights they will turn to blood magic and abomination a LOT of the time.

Supposition That it is in most beings nature to fight back, eventually, such as 'Battered Wife Syndrome' that we see. You kick a dog enough it eventually will bite.

Supposition C) The Templars were acting in cruel and inhumane fashion to the mages of the Circle under the guidance of Meredith. Not all of them, no, but a lot. There was certainly more 'escaping' mages in Kirkwall than in Ferelden for example. Even when faced with wide scale open blood magic the Templars in Ferelden still only brought up Annulment as a last course of action.

Supposition D) That those whom inflict abuse and harm on others should be punished for their wrong doings is a basic tenant of most cultures.

Add all this together, and by siding with the Templars you are promoting those who are the source of all this. Logically, it makes sense you remove the subversive element that is destroying so many and -creating- blood mages.

Your 'logical' outcome, is obviously different than mine, due to my perceptions. This is why 'Logic' is just as subjective as emotions.

EDIT: Novi, yes that fight was by far the hardest fight in the whole game for my mage hawke, by a long long shot. It took me several tries to figure out what I had to do to take him down. For me, it was all about the Gravity Well, that thing was what saved my behind and kept him away from me long enough for me to kill him.

Modifié par Domitrix, 13 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[OmegaBlue0231]

There is no logical ending, in both the mages revolt and the chantry becomes powerless to stop it.

It just depends on if you want to have the blood of innocent mages, some children, on your hands or if you want to try to save as many a you can before the first enchanter stabs you in the back by turning into a Harvester. There's no good or better ending, it's all a matter of which makes you feel the least bad about yourself.

[rumination888]

Domitrix wrote...

Life is not about logic, life is about emotions. Our emotions color our choices and make us who we are. Logic is just a tool to be used by those who twist it to their ends. Such as this:

Supposition A) When pushing mages hard enough with torture, interrogation, lack of basic rights they will turn to blood magic and abomination a LOT of the time.

Supposition That it is in most beings nature to fight back, eventually, such as 'Battered Wife Syndrome' that we see. You kick a dog enough it eventually will bite.

Supposition C) The Templars were acting in cruel and inhumane fashion to the mages of the Circle under the guidance of Meredith. Not all of them, no, but a lot. There was certainly more 'escaping' mages in Kirkwall than in Ferelden for example. Even when faced with wide scale open blood magic the Templars in Ferelden still only brought up Annulment as a last course of action.

Supposition D) That those whom inflict abuse and harm on others should be punished for their wrong doings is a basic tenant of most cultures.

Add all this together, and by siding with the Templars you are promoting those who are the source of all this. Logically, it makes sense you remove the subversive element that is destroying so many and -creating- blood mages.

Your 'logical' outcome, is obviously different than mine, due to my perceptions. This is why 'Logic' is just as subjective as emotions.

You can easily claim that the reason why mages easily succumbed to possession was because the veil in and around Kirkwall was thin.

Logic is about information, or lack thereof. Did you even know that the veil in Kirkwall was thin until I told you? How would that have affected your suppositions? 1 + 1 = 2 unless you lack the information on what "1" means, in which case adding 1 and 1 together equals 11.

If we revise supposition A to the above, then the example in supposition C is flawed. If you haven't noticed already, in both DA:O and DA2, every demon you meet has one singular purpose... to be "free". Hence, we can assume that the majority of mages in Kirkwall tried to flee because they were already possessed.

[nenosronhir]

rumination888 wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

Wait, context of what situation? Mages in Kirkwall spending upwards of 7 years in a position where they could be made mindless slaves for the slightest transgression, fabricated or otherwise? Given that context alone I side with the mages in a heartbeat, blown-up Chantry or no. The possessed ones have given everything they are to kill the Templars who have wronged them for years now - have killed or enslaved their friends, loved ones, have made them live in fear of who they are and what they can do.

From the sounds of it, many were locked in their chambers; if this was the case, how were they supposed to be taught to nuture their talents and learn resistance to demonic influences when they probably barely have control of their own abilities? For that matter, I wonder how many were actually Harrowed; would Meredith even condone the ceremony that purposefully exposes a mage to a demon?

As much as I hate blood magic and everything it stands for, what the Templars have done is inexcusable, and the mages are left with no choice. There needs to be another way - one not dictated by the Chantry, and the possibility of that is what Anders creates.

You are doing the exact same thing that Anders has been complaining about throughout the game - that the actions of one person(mage, templar, whatever) cannot be used to paint the entire group in the same color.

The context of the situation was that there were a significant number of Templars who were tired of Meredith, conspired with mages within the Circle, and were on the verge of overthrowing her and any of her more fanatical followers. That was the last quest before the final choice leading up to the end, in case you had forgotten.

*quirk brow* One Templar did not turn an entire city's worth of mages to blood magic. Meredith and her regime are the at the crux, but ultimately we have evidence of at least two other individual cases and the Templars who follow their command who abuse mages - almost openly. Karras and his ilk, the man who proposes the Tranquil Solution and the Templars we kill under him.

And define a significant number of Templars in that quest; I remember witnessing a small faction, the leader of which (Thrask) is killed by blood magic.

The Templars are the attackers, and the mages are the defenders. Either you side with the mages and run the risk of killing the aformentioned Templars, or you side with the Templars and spare any unpossessed mage you find. The logical choice is clear.

The only unpossessed mages that are being spared are those found by Hawke, and not the rest of the Templars, who are mercilessly slaughtering bitty apprentices in addition to every other mage they stumble across. Hawke might be compassionate, but the Rite of Annulment is clear, and that is unacceptible - particularly because it is specifically not the Circle who instigates the conflict, it is Anders (and someone mentioned already that Meredith barely bats a lash at him, so obsessed is she with bringing the Circle to ruin).

Modifié par nenosronhir, 13 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[-Zorph-]

I am here at this choice with the game sitting here and I can not decide.

Both are wrong, and I really don't know what to do. I am the most indecisive I have ever been.

[TJPags]

Domitrix wrote...

Life is not about logic, life is about emotions. Our emotions color our choices and make us who we are. Logic is just a tool to be used by those who twist it to their ends. Such as this:

Supposition A) When pushing mages hard enough with torture, interrogation, lack of basic rights they will turn to blood magic and abomination a LOT of the time.

Supposition That it is in most beings nature to fight back, eventually, such as 'Battered Wife Syndrome' that we see. You kick a dog enough it eventually will bite.

Supposition C) The Templars were acting in cruel and inhumane fashion to the mages of the Circle under the guidance of Meredith. Not all of them, no, but a lot. There was certainly more 'escaping' mages in Kirkwall than in Ferelden for example. Even when faced with wide scale open blood magic the Templars in Ferelden still only brought up Annulment as a last course of action.

Supposition D) That those whom inflict abuse and harm on others should be punished for their wrong doings is a basic tenant of most cultures.

Add all this together, and by siding with the Templars you are promoting those who are the source of all this. Logically, it makes sense you remove the subversive element that is destroying so many and -creating- blood mages.

Your 'logical' outcome, is obviously different than mine, due to my perceptions. This is why 'Logic' is just as subjective as emotions.

EDIT: Novi, yes that fight was by far the hardest fight in the whole game for my mage hawke, by a long long shot. It took me several tries to figure out what I had to do to take him down. For me, it was all about the Gravity Well, that thing was what saved my behind and kept him away from me long enough for me to kill him.

Supposition A - sure, I can agree with that in principle.  But we - or at least I - didn't see much if any of that going on in the game.

Supposition B - Yup, I can agree.

Supposition C - You say they were cruel - I didn't see this in the game, except Alrik, and I killed him.  But then you say they only turned to Anullment on the end, which seems to reject them acting cruel all game.  You point out they didn't do so, even with the tons of blood mages we have running around raising demons and turning into abominations.  Seems somewhat lenient, to me.

Supposition D - Again, I can agree with that.

The problem is you have, at best, rumors of abuse by the Templars, at least in my game.  We don't see any of these abuses.  We do see blood mages running wild all over the place.  You say they were all pushed into it.  I question that.  All of them?  Pretty much every mage we run into has been pushed into it?  Even the ones from Act 1, before Meredith lost her mind to the idol?  The ones that included the female mage we spared, who then tried to kill us?

"You're not paranoid if they're really out to get you".  Meredith isn't crazy for seeing blood mages all over the place when there ARE blood mages all over the place.