270 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

@ OP, why would I want to be Viscount when you're merely a pawn of the Order of Templars? I prefer heading off with Merrill and my dog into the Free Marches as a hero of the mages. Being a pawn of the templars as Viscount doesn't sound too thrilling to me. It's been that way for many years now, and I doubt Hawke will change that when Cullen is the one who places you as the new "leader" of Kirkwall. I don't think I could endorse the senseless murder of men, women, and children because they're mages. I'd rather give mages a fighting chance and help them free themselves from slavery.

You obtain their respect and you would have to be viscount to form alliances to try and halt the Exalted March, sure there is mage rebellions but its a massive risk to hope that stops any chance of an Exalted March.. and even so, with the situation as it is. With the world on the brink of war and you have Kirkwall here with no Templars, no Viscount and a bunch of rioting mages and Kirkwallers a foreign country will take advantage of the chaos and attack Kirkwall anyway.

An Exalted march against Kirkwall would need little support to succeed anyway with the city tearing itself apart with mages battling the Kirkwall Population since they would blame the mages for everything, resent them and attack them especially after what happened to the chantry.

It is definite this will happen because mages are distrusted far more than foreigners like Fereldens and they were fought to keep out, and it will be the Qunari vs Mother Petrice and her fanatics all over again.. but with more support

[LobselVith8]

I thought murdering every mage man, woman, and child in Kirkwall was the wrong choice, but I can imagine that a pro-Chantry Hawke would disagree. Personally, I don't want to earn the respect of the Order of Templars, I want to put an end to slavery, and Anders made that possible. For me, siding with the templars is morally repugnant when it involves killing Circle mages for something they didn't do. Meredith is insane, and I have no interest in killing innocent people her behalf.

[AFCommando]

mage ending sucks, the mages try to kill you and you end up killing the first enchanter and most of the mages and at the end of the game every single mage in kirkwall is dead because they were walking around like there wasn't a templar army at there gate.

[DieHigh2012]

I hated the helpless feeling that was present throughout the entire game, nothing you do matters. In the face of all the rampant blood magic, demon summoning, and the obvious abuses of power of the the templars I had to just save my sister.

The mages and the templars were evil nether one deserved to be vindicated. Then Anders decides to go bin ladin, just to make shure the pooch is thoroughly screwed.

I felt like pulling a Cartman, "screw you guys, I'm going home"

[Augustei]

Meredith is insane, but if you dont kill the innocent mages now, then you kill the templars, and the mages will die anyway when Divine Justina V's forces arrive on Kirkwalls doorstep.. and you cant ally with anyone for help since you can only become Viscount through Templar support so the march will go ahead and instead of killing innocent mages. Innocent mages and Kirkwall citizens will be killed instead. And all the templars will be dead as well.

So siding with the mages results in more innocent deaths then siding with the templars. The mages still continue to fight for their freedom even if you do side with templars as well

[nenosronhir]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Meredith is insane, but if you dont kill the innocent mages now, then you kill the templars, and the mages will die anyway when Divine Justina V's forces arrive on Kirkwalls doorstep.. and you cant ally with anyone for help since you can only become Viscount through Templar support so the march will go ahead and instead of killing innocent mages. Innocent mages and Kirkwall citizens will be killed instead. And all the templars will be dead as well.

So siding with the mages results in more innocent deaths then siding with the templars. The mages still continue to fight for their freedom even if you do side with templars as well

Where do you get that? My Hawke walked out after killing Meredith, leaving loads of Templars alive and well. :<

[AFCommando]

nenosronhir wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Meredith is insane, but if you dont kill the innocent mages now, then you kill the templars, and the mages will die anyway when Divine Justina V's forces arrive on Kirkwalls doorstep.. and you cant ally with anyone for help since you can only become Viscount through Templar support so the march will go ahead and instead of killing innocent mages. Innocent mages and Kirkwall citizens will be killed instead. And all the templars will be dead as well.

So siding with the mages results in more innocent deaths then siding with the templars. The mages still continue to fight for their freedom even if you do side with templars as well

Where do you get that? My Hawke walked out after killing Meredith, leaving loads of Templars alive and well. :<

same, and all the mages were dead lol, so pretty much either ending involves the mages dying. 

[Augustei]

Anders was a bloody idiot.. Blowing up that chantry will have caused so much more harm than good..
First off, he killed a bunch of innocents.. And everyone loved the Grand Cleric anyway.. They will blame all mages for his actions and riots would have begun throughout Kirkwall if you side with the mages.

The Templars would have got far more support knowing that the mages are blowing up Chantrys now as well.

Sure it can be said "Nothing would have been done if he didn't blow up the chantry and the mages would still be slaves of the circle etc. etc." sometihng along those lines.. But given the choice between either Mass Slavery and Mass Death.. What Really do you think is the more logical choice? certainly not death..

Anyway Anders is now face down in a ditch for his idiocy in my game

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Augustei]

nenosronhir wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Meredith is insane, but if you dont kill the innocent mages now, then you kill the templars, and the mages will die anyway when Divine Justina V's forces arrive on Kirkwalls doorstep.. and you cant ally with anyone for help since you can only become Viscount through Templar support so the march will go ahead and instead of killing innocent mages. Innocent mages and Kirkwall citizens will be killed instead. And all the templars will be dead as well.

So siding with the mages results in more innocent deaths then siding with the templars. The mages still continue to fight for their freedom even if you do side with templars as well

Where do you get that? My Hawke walked out after killing Meredith, leaving loads of Templars alive and well. :<

Ok yeah wrong use of words there, not all Templars.. But alot of them will be pointlessly dead..

[Volourn]

The logical side is to side with rapists, maass murderers, slavers, and **** wannabes? Nah, I'll pass.

[Augustei]

Volourn wrote...

The logical side is to side with rapists, maass murderers, slavers, and **** wannabes? Nah, I'll pass.

How are the Templars any of those things? 

I guess mass murderers  is a possibility but then again... So are the mages

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mars 2011 - 04:26 .

[nenosronhir]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Anders was a bloody idiot.. Blowing up that chantry will have caused so much more harm than good..
First off, he killed a bunch of innocents.. And everyone loved the Grand Cleric anyway.. They will blame all mages for his actions and riots would have begun throughout Kirkwall if you side with the mages.

The Templars would have got far more support knowing that the mages are blowing up Chantrys now as well.

Sure it can be said "Nothing would have been done if he didn't blow up the chantry and the mages would still be slaves of the circle etc. etc." sometihng along those lines.. But given the choice between either Mass Slavery and Mass Death.. What Really do you think is the more logical choice? certainly not death..

Anyway Anders is now face down in a ditch for his idiocy in my game

To quote Anders - "Some things are worse than death." A lifetime of imprisonment by the Circle versus a fighting chance for potential freedom. Hmmm.

[rumination888]

nenosronhir wrote...
snip

For your first argument... one can easily throw it right back at you and claim that there were more evidence of possessed mages than corrupt templars. Its the chicken and the egg conundrum. Regardless, that entire line of reasoning is flawed. What I said still stands - the actions of one person(mage, templar, whatever) cannot be used to paint the entire group in the same color, which is precisely what you're doing.

There are strong implications that Cullen was a part of the rebel faction, especially since there wasn't a single Templar under his command that sided with Meredith in the end. One can assume that the templars in that quest were currently off-duty.(sort of like how its implied that Aveline is off-duty when she travels with you).

As for your second argument, there isn't enough information to make that claim. Infact, there IS enough information to make a claim to the contrary.

When Hawke spared those mages, Templars were nearby. You had to actually ask the Templars if they'd be willing to spare them. If the Rite of Annulment is as clear as you claim, then why did the Templars agree to defy it when Hawke asked them to spare the innocent mages?

[cactusberry]

This was a very hard choice for me.
Even being a mage, I sided with the Templars.
*Half of the mages turned to blood magic and abominations for the final fight anyway.
*Orsino turns to rather... unpleasant forms of blood magic.
*Anders would only influence more to be that crazy.
*The people of Kirkwall would have gone mad and attacked the Circle anyway if the Templars didn't take the Rite of Annulment.
*Even Orsino says once that Meredith has some truth to her words.

Even before the game ended, I saw a spoiler that Meredith and Orsino would both be killed. I would have sided with the mages if Meredith would not be killed. Even though I agree with Meredith that abominations and blood mages should be killed, there are still innocent, so I found the Rite of Annulment bad. To add to that, she also wanted to make the Circle a worse place of horror and torture. However, if I sided with the mages, there would probably be evil blood mages and abominations still alive. They are both evil, which is why i'm glad both die. There won't be Meredith to make mage's lives horrible, and there won't be demons and maleificars having a plague on Kirkwall. Not to mention siding with the Templars, I became Viscount, so if any "Merediths" show up in the future, i'll have enough power to cool them down.
So, in the ending result, I find the Templars to be a more logical choice, as the OP says. Meredith dies anyway along with the evil mages and demons, so it's a win-win. As for the innocents that had to die, I spared the two mages that begged for mercy and the Circle will have to start anew with the rest. Hopefully some good mages escaped the massacre. I did all I can to help the mages while being with the Templars, even Cullen agreed.

[Volourn]

Certain quests will illustrate the raping - espicially of little girls.

Mass murders - will they don't hesitate to burn down entire chantrys not caring if there are innocents aside.

Wannabe ****s because theya re bigots towards a specific group not caring taht the stereotype doesn't fit all.

Slavers because while they hate mage they have no issue using their magicn for their own ill gotten gain.

Let's also not forget that Kirkwall templars don't mind enslaving elves either.

The fact that the mages are like too doesn't change the point that the tempalrs are those things.

People say mages should be controlled b/c theya re potentially dangerously evil.. the exact same thing can be argued about the religious fanatics templar order. Perhaps, we should have Templar Circles as well?

[Soulcheg]

Just my opinion -

After Orsino (now i can call him only as Arse-ino) told me, that he knew about my mother's killer from the very beginning - that's made my decision.

You know, there is a Ferelden Circle and First Enchanter Irwing. Just compare this two First Enchanters. How such an idiot as Arse-ino can become First Enchanter at all?

[KenKenpachi]

Volourn wrote...

People say mages should be controlled b/c theya re potentially dangerously evil.. the exact same thing can be argued about the religious fanatics templar order. Perhaps, we should have Templar Circles as well?

Problem is Templars are made. Not Born. In fact I'ld agree to letting mages run around, provided they never ever used magic again. Period. Well short of in a Military Capacity. Any act against that, butcher them. Violence can be an effective means of control, provided its not taken to far.

Also Keep in mind Templars pay a price by having there lives ruined and turned into drug addicts. Its a bloody never ending pass the potatoe game.

Chantry, gets Templars hooked on drugs and propaganda, Templars, beat the **** out of mages or see them as subhuman, and become corrupt, Mages sell drugs to the templars (lyrium) adding to that corruption, and turn into mindless evil monsters and can control others if left to there own devises. In Turn the Chantry given these results make templars to watch mages, and use lyruim to keep them in cheak.

Its all interconnected and neither choice fixes a damn thing, and nothing at all is to blame, short of what ever gave man magic to start with. Or Corruptition.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 13 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Orsino corresponded with Quentin. He even calls his research "evil" when he becomes a Harvester. Why kill men, women, and children because of Orsino? I don't see any reason to deny mages freedom from slavery. Anders' actions lead to the emancipation of the Circles across Thedas. He's an abolitionist. Every mage who doesn't need to worry about a ruling templar torturing them, raping them, turning them into a mindless husk with no agency of their own, or killing them owes their freedom to Anders.

[nenosronhir]

rumination888 wrote...

For your first argument... one can easily throw it right back at you and claim that there were more evidence of possessed mages than corrupt templars. Its the chicken and the egg conundrum. Regardless, that entire line of reasoning is flawed. What I said still stands - the actions of one person(mage, templar, whatever) cannot be used to paint the entire group in the same color, which is precisely what you're doing.

I'll concede the point because you're correct in that I can only offer concrete evidence againce Karras, Alrik and - well, Meredith.

There are strong implications that Cullen was a part of the rebel faction, especially since there wasn't a single Templar under his command that sided with Meredith in the end. One can assume that the templars in that quest were currently off-duty.(sort of like how its implied that Aveline is off-duty when she travels with you).

If you're going to start asking I support my claims with evidence, back this up with something solid. There is more evidence to support that he is a dutiful Templar; that he backs down at the end does not mean he was seeking to overthrow Meredith, it means he just watched her become a monster, and observed the Champion defeat what she became, and isn't stupid.

I am inclined to believe that Cullen is not a Templar who abuses his station, but he does say he's witnessed what leniency can let mages become.

As for your second argument, there isn't enough information to make that claim. Infact, there IS enough information to make a claim to the contrary.

When Hawke spared those mages, Templars were nearby. You had to actually ask the Templars if they'd be willing to spare them. If the Rite of Annulment is as clear as you claim, then why did the Templars agree to defy it when Hawke asked them to spare the innocent mages?

Would the Templars have chosen to spare those mages if Hawke was not present? When choosing to side with the mages, all who come into the Templars path are cut down. If nothing else is clear, they're going into the Circle with the explicit intent to slaughter every mage they find; that Hawke is there to ask permission to spare some unpossessed mages when siding with the Templars is a testament to the fact he/she is the Champion, and his/her opinion holds weight.

[rumination888]

nenosronhir wrote...

Would the Templars have chosen to spare those mages if Hawke was not present? When choosing to side with the mages, all who come into the Templars path are cut down. If nothing else is clear, they're going into the Circle with the explicit intent to slaughter every mage they find; that Hawke is there to ask permission to spare some unpossessed mages when siding with the Templars is a testament to the fact he/she is the Champion, and his/her opinion holds weight.

BAM! There it is. That is precisely why it is the logical choice to side with the Templars.

[MortalEngines]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino corresponded with Quentin. He even calls his research "evil" when he becomes a Harvester. Why kill men, women, and children because of Orsino? I don't see any reason to deny mages freedom from slavery. Anders' actions lead to the emancipation of the Circles across Thedas. He's an abolitionist. Every mage who doesn't need to worry about a ruling templar torturing them, raping them, turning them into a mindless husk with no agency of their own, or killing them owes their freedom to Anders.

But look at this from a utilitarian point of view. The mages are in the minority, Anders, while providing them freedom (and I use this loosely, since technically, Mages will never be free from their powers, which means they are constantly at the risk of having their freedom taken by demons). Does so at the sake of the lives of the Majority. 

I'm not saying the Templars or Meredith were right in their acts, however, Anders killed many, many innocents for the sake of his rebellion and condemn many more because of it. With mages running loose around Thedas how many innocents will be killed because of those who have turn to blood magic? Or for going to Chantry for help? (You and I both know if mages found ANYONE in a Chantry, they would probably kill them all, just like Anders) How many innocent Mages who were happy with their life in the Circle will be drag into this conflict outside their will? Not every circle is as bad as Kirkwall. Just look at Fereldan's Circle, Gregoire was leniant and fair, as was Irving and most mages seemed at peace (even Anders got hunderds of second chances there).

Wynne and many other mages were very happy in the Circle, yet they had their whole lives ruined because the minority (Uldred) were seeking more power.

EDIT: To summarize, you said why kill men, women, and children because of Orsino? And I say, why kill thousands of Innocent Chantry members and normal citizens because of Meredith. Mages will never be at peace if left to their own devices because others can barely control them, let alone them controlling themselves. Look at Orsino, he had no control over his mages, neither did Irving.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 13 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[nenosronhir]

rumination888 wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

Would the Templars have chosen to spare those mages if Hawke was not present? When choosing to side with the mages, all who come into the Templars path are cut down. If nothing else is clear, they're going into the Circle with the explicit intent to slaughter every mage they find; that Hawke is there to ask permission to spare some unpossessed mages when siding with the Templars is a testament to the fact he/she is the Champion, and his/her opinion holds weight.

BAM! There it is. That is precisely why it is the logical choice to side with the Templars.

Damnit. *takes off hat* XD

Edit: Granted, a loop in that hole I buried myself in is that Hawke is not siding with the Templars in general during the choosing, he/she is siding with Meredith. And if Hawke is inclined to protect the mages, it would be more logical for him/her to assume he/she could do a better job from their side, rather than Meredith's, yes?

Modifié par nenosronhir, 13 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[Yakko77]

The Big Nothing wrote...

I sided with the mages, killed lyrium-mad Meredith, and inspired the uprising of mages all over Thedas.

I like that better.

I  did too.  It was awesome.  Part of me wants to have one play through with my siding with the Templars but I simply love this ending too much!