270 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Another matter of concern is the growing tensions between Orlais and Ferelden.. War is indeed possible and thats why Alistairs comes to visit us to tell us to protect kirkwall or something like that. he wants them as an Ally most likely to help ferelden and her possible ally to control the channel from invading fleets from Orlais. Siding with the Templars is definitly most benficial for this situation.
Because 1) It gets a ferelden on Kirkwalls throne and 2) It gets a Ferelden leading the Templars of the east =D

Fereldens future is safer if siding with the Templars. This isn't a statement of justificiation for siding with the templars. So dont say something like "That doesn't justify blah blah blah" Im just pointing this out.

My game had nothing about Ferelden and Orlais in it.  Of course, I had drunkistair - which was a lot of fun, I have to say - and my imported Warden was king of Ferelden beside his beloved Anora, but I got no visits, no indication of tensions between Orlais and Ferelden escalating.

So I'm not sure how much weight this possible storyline can have.

[LobselVith8]

SNJ, I see the role of Viscount as being nothing more than a pawn of the Chantry and its templars, so I see no reason to murder in innocent men, women, and children for a pointless title intended for a puppet ruler of the Templar Order.

[AlexXIV]

The point many mage supporters overlook is that if they bring demons to Thedas to fight for them, they are no innocent anymore. I would have gladly supported the mages if they would have fought just with the magic available, even if it meant that Hawke died or something. But Orsino even turns on you and the mages if you side with him, and he protects the madman that kills Hawke's mom to not give the templars more ammunition against mages. Orsino went totally out of his way and so did Anders/Justice. Freeing the mages is all good and fine but there in Kirkwall it is different. Yes, the templars seem overzealous and paranoid. But there are alot of bloodmages around who summon demons all the time. Even when the Viscount was still alive and Meredith not as powerful. You can't really blame the templars for being on the edge in this situation.

[MotoSkunkX]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

You act like everyone's just going to sit back and let mages get killed.  Not to mention that mages are more than capable of defending themselves.  Especially once they take up blood magic and suddenly Templars can't do jack crap to them anymore.

There's a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was so powerful and feared, and it wasn't because of its flower exports.  Every mage in Thedas on a rampage?  If I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on the Chantry coming out of this on top.

[AlexXIV]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

You act like everyone's just going to sit back and let mages get killed.  Not to mention that mages are more than capable of defending themselves.  Especially once they take up blood magic and suddenly Templars can't do jack crap to them anymore.

There's a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was so powerful and feared, and it wasn't because of its flower exports.  Every mage in Thedas on a rampage?  If I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on the Chantry coming out of this on top.

Well that's my opinion as well. The Chantry is going to lose the war and the war is comming whether you support the mages or templars. Cassandra is looking for Hawke either because of her good standing with the templars OR mages. It doesn't matter which side Hawke is on, she will probably be able to end the war in one way or another. That's what I'd assume anyway.

[SlayTheDragons]

LobselVith8 wrote...

SNJ, I see the role of Viscount as being nothing more than a pawn of the Chantry and its templars, so I see no reason to murder in innocent men, women, and children for a pointless title intended for a puppet ruler of the Templar Order.

did you come to this impression of what a viscount is because of how the previous viscount ruled? if you choose the templars, you don't have to worry about being a puppet since everyone that is left of the templars is loyal to you - at least that's my impression of how things in kirkwall are near the ending of the game. as for murdering innocents, you're also given an option when you side w/ the templars of sparing innocent mages - which i did. templars only want to get rid of the mages who have been corrupted by demons or have shown that they are likely to give into the corruption of demons - i dislike the latter notion because it reminds me alot of minority report where you get sentenced based on something you haven't done yet.. another reason for siding with the templars: it's easier to produce change from the inside, than out - at least, that's my reasoning.

Modifié par SlayTheDragons, 13 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[Mustang678]

I sided with mages the whole way through and I'd do it again.

[KenKenpachi]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

You act like everyone's just going to sit back and let mages get killed.  Not to mention that mages are more than capable of defending themselves.  Especially once they take up blood magic and suddenly Templars can't do jack crap to them anymore.

There's a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was so powerful and feared, and it wasn't because of its flower exports.  Every mage in Thedas on a rampage?  If I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on the Chantry coming out of this on top.

Just like alot of people helped the Jedi escape Order 66? Or how alot of Germans helped the SA escape the night of the long nives? Face it most people hate and fear mages rightfully so. Too many of you are brining your own real world political idea's into this as you had the privalige of living in a modern state and not having to deal with many issues elsewhere in the world.

Surprise some people for no other reasson than "simple" ones hate and will kill for them. Its like the Mid East revolts everyone in the west is like YAY Freedom, and no ****ing surprise not one of them are pro western, oopps.

Mages are like convicts that are molded to tanks. Oh sure not all of them are bad, but would you, have no problem with them being on the street able to just blow your house away on a whim? Sure they might not, but they still can. Hell most people are nice on a day to day bases, or at least non threatening ****s, so should we get rid of all policing bodies, because, hey he's not a bad guy untill he does something. Then what do you do when they do something? Count on the border forces to handle it? In the mean time how many deaths or destruction events are piled up on the front page, tomorrow?

EDIT all that being said its clear that the Templars need to be a bit more religion free, and moderated to an extent, where they act as overwatch and peace keepers, not paranoid crack heads.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 13 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[AlexXIV]

Also don't forget that the war is not only mages vs chantry. Many templars split from the chantry. And there are the tevinters who will probably rather help the mages and there are the Qunari who might use this chance to break the peace.

[Doc Faust]

Honestly, the discussion of which side was "better" or "more logical" to join is mostly academic. Either way, the revolution/ culling/ civil war/ worldwar/ ohgodohgod mashup thing starts. All the Champion's great and important "choice" matters is in determining if the Templars suffer light losses or heavy losses in the first battle-- either way, Hawk and his teammates are the only mages left alive in Kirkwall by the end.

Hence, my reason for siding with the mages is that Orsino has a cool dragon-staff.

MY LOGIC IS IRREFUTABLE!

[MotoSkunkX]

KenKenpachi wrote...
Just like alot of people helped the Jedi escape Order 66? Or how alot of Germans helped the SA escape the night of the long nives? Face it most people hate and fear mages rightfully so. Too many of you are brining your own real world political idea's into this as you had the privalige of living in a modern state and not having to deal with many issues elsewhere in the world.

Surprise some people for no other reasson than "simple" ones hate and will kill for them. Its like the Mid East revolts everyone in the west is like YAY Freedom, and no ****ing surprise not one of them are pro western, oopps.

Mages are like convicts that are molded to tanks. Oh sure not all of them are bad, but would you, have no problem with them being on the street able to just blow your house away on a whim? Sure they might not, but they still can. Hell most people are nice on a day to day bases, or at least non threatening ****s, so should we get rid of all policing bodies, because, hey he's not a bad guy untill he does something. Then what do you do when they do something? Count on the border forces to handle it? In the mean time how many deaths or destruction events are piled up on the front page, tomorrow?

I seem to remember multiple jedi getting help from others to escape Order 66.  The SA is a bad comparison, the jedi one was better.

Their fear might be jusitified, but their hate?  Not really.  And convicts?  REALLY?  You're using Templar logic of mages being born bad.  Mages are born with magic, not a penchant for evil.

Like Hawke says, oppressing mages isn't exactly the best way to prevent an Imperium 2.0.  In fact it's probably going to be the cause.  Sure you CAN oppress them, but look at how well that turns out.  I've said it before and I'll say it again - oppressing people who can kill you by boiling your blood with their MINDS is a horribly stupid idea.

[OmegaBlue0231]

XxDeonxX wrote...

graciegrace wrote...

When I knew there was a choice between the Templars and the Mages I was leaning toward choosing the Templars, Mages have left a bad taste in my mouth throughout DA2...

However, I don't see any logic in choosing the Templars to be honest. Meredith is interested in genocide for genocide's sake. She blamed the circle for something an apostate did and wants to slaughter them. There's absolutely no logic to the templar's side of the war.

Well there is logic to their side of the war but not as much and not any really with the Annulment thing.

But there IS logic to siding with the templars yourself.
If you side with the templars, they will allow you to become Viscount and you can form alliances with other nations to put pause to Divine Justina's Exalted March.. or even better the templars will report the situation is under control in Kirkwall and the divine need not send forces.

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

How the hell could you push back an exalted march when you will inevitably have riots in your streets with A) The Power Vaccum and  People resenting mages for the what anders done.. yes they will resent them all. And fight them because of it. like they did with the Fereldens, like they did with the Qunari. But far far worse.

Much more logic chosing templars then over mages

Did you miss the lore that has been around since before the game came out that says the Viscount before the current one was killed because he wanted the Templars gone and they really control the city. I doubt Hawke could change jack, at least when siding the mages you have their trust and could influence them to not attack innocents or talk some of them out of using blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

SlayTheDragons, the templars have authority. You seem to argue that the templars would like Hawke enough to support his decisions, but how long would a pro-mage Hawke last when the Chantry orders his removal? Cassandra wants to use Hawke to talk down the mages of the Circle who freed themselves (at least for my pro-Circle Hawke) and I see no reason to slaughter innocent people You think Cullen or the others will defy the Divine for an apostate ruler? I see little point to being Viscount when it ultimately means nothing.

[SlayTheDragons]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

You act like everyone's just going to sit back and let mages get killed.  Not to mention that mages are more than capable of defending themselves. (1) Especially once they take up blood magic and suddenly Templars can't do jack crap to them anymore.

There's a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was so powerful and feared, and it wasn't because of its flower exports.  Every mage in Thedas on a rampage?  If I was a betting man, (2)I wouldn't bet on the Chantry coming out of this on top.

1.) the templars don't seem to be as well-trained as aveline's guards...we should put aveline charge to whip them into shape haha then i'd feel bad for bloodmages...but you're right, bloodmages>current templars.

2.)umm...that's assuming everyone in the circle of magi turns on the chantry, but even they did, the chantry still has sebastian vale, leliana and the seekers. so i'd bet on the chantry.

[KenKenpachi]

MotoSkunkX wrote...
I seem to remember multiple jedi getting help from others to escape Order 66.  The SA is a bad comparison, the jedi one was better.

Their fear might be jusitified, but their hate?  Not really.  And convicts?  REALLY?  You're using Templar logic of mages being born bad.  Mages are born with magic, not a penchant for evil.

Like Hawke says, oppressing mages isn't exactly the best way to prevent an Imperium 2.0.  In fact it's probably going to be the cause.  Sure you CAN oppress them, but look at how well that turns out.  I've said it before and I'll say it again - oppressing people who can kill you by boiling your blood with their MINDS is a horribly stupid idea.

Well sorry if I'm distrustful of people who can as you said kill me by boiling my blood with their minds. And not really only a handful of Jedi escaped, like upper 10's to low 100's out of thousands. And most of those minus 7 or 8 did not live long after, minus the ones who went into hiding and gave up powers.

I'll say how the templars handle the show is wrong, and magic is most certianly not a curse. If I were a General and I seen mages I'ld take the risk of detailing a few guards to kill them(should they go nuts). But they can't really be left alone either. I think the Jedi had the right track or even the later jedi when it comes to this. Pick up all the force sensitives you can, teach them a code of honor and if that fails have Manadlorians hunt them down. but allow them to marry, have kids and such, and generally treat them as human beings. Trying to take all things from them and make them into monks was a bad move.

But just, oh hey another kid was born that can move things with his mind. Meh what else is new? Thats just stupid and reckless, though a number of Sith were from the Jedi ranks, ironically enough in times when possessions were banned and feared lossing them, most Sith came from Kids the Jedi missed or learned the powers on there own. So the concept of Templars and the Magi, is sound, the exicution is flawed. And if it had been evened out abit with Templars who won't religious jerks that hated them but rather employs of the Magi trained to hunt rouge mages, I doubt we would have any trouble. Maybe even train mages to do it with supervisor templars.

I'm all for "freedom" but it comes at a price, total freedom is a disaster.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 13 mars 2011 - 07:31 .

[LobselVith8]

I remember the mages were the edge against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, so I'd bet on the mages.

[TJPags]

Doc Faust wrote...

Honestly, the discussion of which side was "better" or "more logical" to join is mostly academic. Either way, the revolution/ culling/ civil war/ worldwar/ ohgodohgod mashup thing starts. All the Champion's great and important "choice" matters is in determining if the Templars suffer light losses or heavy losses in the first battle-- either way, Hawk and his teammates are the only mages left alive in Kirkwall by the end.

Hence, my reason for siding with the mages is that Orsino has a cool dragon-staff.

MY LOGIC IS IRREFUTABLE!

Works for me.  <shrug>

Where was the option to take my sister and go home?  That was my choice...

[MotoSkunkX]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Well sorry if I'm distrustful of people who can as you said kill me by boiling my blood with their minds. And not really only a handful of Jedi escaped, like upper 10's to low 100's out of thousands. And most of those minus 7 or 8 did not live long after, minus the ones who went into hiding and gave up powers.

I'll say how the templars handle the show is wrong, and magic is most certianly not a curse. If I were a General and I seen mages I'ld take the risk of detailing a few guards to kill them. But they can't really be left alonem either. I think the Jedi had the right track or even the later jedi when it comes to this. Pick up all the force sensitives you can, teach them a code of honor and if that fails have Manadlorians hunt them down. but allow them to marry, have kids and such, and generally treat them as human beings.

But just, oh hey another kid was born that can move things with his mind. Meh what else is new? Thats just stupid and reckless, though a number of Sith were from the Jedi ranks, ironically enough in times when possessions were banned and feared lossing them, most Sith came from Kids the Jedi missed or learned the powers on there own. So the concept of Templars and the Magi, is sound, the exicution is flawed. And if it had been evened out abit with Templars who won't religious jerks that hated them but rather employs of the Magi trained to hunt rouge mages, I doubt we would have any trouble.

I'm all for "freedom" but it comes at a price, total freedom is a disaster.

To be fair most jedi got shot seconds after Order 66 was given.  It's hard to get them to safety when they're lying dead in a ditch with gaping blaster wounds in their backs.

The whole having somebody follow them bit is just another form of oppression.  Personally I think Tevinter has the right idea.  Blood mages, blood mages everywhere.  You notice that they don't exactly have a gigantic problem with abominations running around everywhere, nor are blood mages massacring the population for giggles.  Which seems to be the main issue you take with mages(oh noes they could explode at any time!).

[SlayTheDragons]

LobselVith8 wrote...

SlayTheDragons, the templars have authority. You seem to argue that the templars would like Hawke enough to support his decisions, but how long would a pro-mage Hawke last when the Chantry orders his removal? Cassandra wants to use Hawke to talk down the mages of the Circle who freed themselves (at least for my pro-Circle Hawke) and I see no reason to slaughter innocent people You think Cullen or the others will defy the Divine for an apostate ruler? I see little point to being Viscount when it ultimately means nothing.

i'm assuming you played a mage - i played a DW rogue... um, the chantry can look to you as proof that not all apostates are corrupt and your position as viscount can be looked as an example that mages and templars can work and live harmoniously...? and yes, i would argue that the templars do like hawke enough to support him, but i don't know if they Chantry would remove him. hawke fled kirkwall, so i don't know what caused that, but i would agree that templars are with the Chantry and not the viscount - so any orders from the divine supercede the viscount's. i wanted to be viscount because i wanted the authority to make change and
use the respect i gained as champion of kirkwall to help in that, but i ended up leaving kirkwall, so i don't know what happened there.

[LobselVith8]

The Chantry enslaves mages, Slay. I don't want to support that. I have no desire to be a pawn to the templars as Viscount of Kirkwall. I won't be able to accomplish anything when the Divine and the templars will countermand any changes I'd try to implement.

[KenKenpachi]

MotoSkunkX wrote...]

To be fair most jedi got shot seconds after Order 66 was given.  It's hard to get them to safety when they're lying dead in a ditch with gaping blaster wounds in their backs.

The whole having somebody follow them bit is just another form of oppression.  Personally I think Tevinter has the right idea.  Blood mages, blood mages everywhere.  You notice that they don't exactly have a gigantic problem with abominations running around everywhere, nor are blood mages massacring the population for giggles.  Which seems to be the main issue you take with mages(oh noes they could explode at any time!).

And the bulk of those not killed died at the hands of Vader.

And yet most of those people are slaves.

Or is this one of those "Freedom for me and mine, but not for thy." type deals? Its fun enough if your the one with the power, but when your not, the oppressed become the Oppressor. We know the Tevinter keep slaves, we know they still kill them for blood rituals. And those who are left have a "better to be on the side of villiany, than in its path" mindest going on. . I mean that oh so nice blood mage I killed in the Alieange seemed to not have any problems killing 20 some Elfs if I let him go to give me power. The fact he knew how to do that says he's done it befor.

So you want freedom for mages so they can enslave everyone else, Makes perfect sense. See power for me an mine, just drop the stupid civil rights crap and shame the devil. I for one have no problem hoping I can get a cannon and side with the Qunari in the next game.

[LobselVith8]

Ken, freeing the mages from slavery doesn't mean the enslavement of everyone else. Mages didn't enslave people among the Chasind tribes, with the Dalish clans, in the nation of Rivain, or in the town of Haven. Free mages =\\= the Tevinter Imperium.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ken, freeing the mages from slavery doesn't mean the enslavement of everyone else. Mages didn't enslave people among the Chasind tribes, with the Dalish clans, in the nation of Rivain, or in the town of Haven. Free mages == the Tevinter Imperium.

Thats exactly what the Tevinter Imperium did.. The Tevinter Imperium ruled by mages. So Technically.. Mages did do all that lol

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mars 2011 - 07:48 .

[KenKenpachi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ken, freeing the mages from slavery doesn't mean the enslavement of everyone else. Mages didn't enslave people among the Chasind tribes, with the Dalish clans, in the nation of Rivain, or in the town of Haven. Free mages == the Tevinter Imperium.

Minus the fact the Tevinter STILL keeps slaves. As to the Dailish untill I see a non mage running a clan I'm not buying it. Also in Haven note everyone ran to him for protection, though he seemed to not be a praticing mage of any major extent. And the Chasind seem to fear magic.

[AlexXIV]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ken, freeing the mages from slavery doesn't mean the enslavement of everyone else. Mages didn't enslave people among the Chasind tribes, with the Dalish clans, in the nation of Rivain, or in the town of Haven. Free mages == the Tevinter Imperium.

Thats exactly what the Tevinter Imperium did.. The Tevinter Imperium ruled by mages. So Technically.. Mages did do all that lol

If I understand it right, the Tevinter Imperium was never conquered by Andraste. She died there and then the mages adopted the Chantry because they feared their own population would start an uprise. But according to Fenris, the same magisters stayed in power. In Tevinter the magisters are the most powerful instance because they lead the Chantry.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 07:52 .