270 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

SNJ, I see the role of Viscount as being nothing more than a pawn of the Chantry and its templars, so I see no reason to murder in innocent men, women, and children for a pointless title intended for a puppet ruler of the Templar Order.

You aren't their puppet if you currey favor with them.. The chantry will ensure the templars go through harsh interrogations and the Templars would know this. It will be like the real life Templar orders collapse.. Many of the Templars sided with the mages and the chantry will want to weed them out so they will torture them to releasing false accusations... The Templars may want to take steps to avoid this. Many of them definitly would

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ken, freeing the mages from slavery doesn't mean the enslavement of everyone else. Mages didn't enslave people among the Chasind tribes, with the Dalish clans, in the nation of Rivain, or in the town of Haven. Free mages == the Tevinter Imperium.

Thats exactly what the Tevinter Imperium did.. The Tevinter Imperium ruled by mages. So Technically.. Mages did do all that lol

If I understand it right, the Tevinter Imperium was never conquered by Andraste. She died there and then the mages adopted the Chantry because they feared their own population would start an uprise. But according to Fenris, the same magisters stayed in power. In Tevinter, the magisters are the most powerful instance, because they lead the Chantry.

I know im just saying Mages did enslave people among the Chasind and Dalish.. To a far worse level then the Chantry lol

[Augustei]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

You act like everyone's just going to sit back and let mages get killed.  Not to mention that mages are more than capable of defending themselves.  Especially once they take up blood magic and suddenly Templars can't do jack crap to them anymore.

There's a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was so powerful and feared, and it wasn't because of its flower exports.  Every mage in Thedas on a rampage?  If I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on the Chantry coming out of this on top.

no people wont sit back and let the mages get killed.. They will help kill them. And if the mages do resort to blood magic then it will be exactly like it was at the end of Dragon Age 2 with Demons running around killing them all before the main Templar force even arives.. So Yeah cant see how all the mages being dead is beneficial to them at all.. I mean if a few mages resort to blood magic, sure they might be fine.. But considering they are all rebelling at once that means that the Veils will be torn around most places for them... And then they will be killed by demons..

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mars 2011 - 07:56 .

[Augustei]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

graciegrace wrote...

When I knew there was a choice between the Templars and the Mages I was leaning toward choosing the Templars, Mages have left a bad taste in my mouth throughout DA2...

However, I don't see any logic in choosing the Templars to be honest. Meredith is interested in genocide for genocide's sake. She blamed the circle for something an apostate did and wants to slaughter them. There's absolutely no logic to the templar's side of the war.

Well there is logic to their side of the war but not as much and not any really with the Annulment thing.

But there IS logic to siding with the templars yourself.
If you side with the templars, they will allow you to become Viscount and you can form alliances with other nations to put pause to Divine Justina's Exalted March.. or even better the templars will report the situation is under control in Kirkwall and the divine need not send forces.

The Alternative.. Side with the mages, no viscount. no allies, Templars report mage rebellion, exalted march declared, Many innocents die in the war... Well no sorry not a war, a one sided blood bath.. in the chantrys favor.

How the hell could you push back an exalted march when you will inevitably have riots in your streets with A) The Power Vaccum and  People resenting mages for the what anders done.. yes they will resent them all. And fight them because of it. like they did with the Fereldens, like they did with the Qunari. But far far worse.

Much more logic chosing templars then over mages

Did you miss the lore that has been around since before the game came out that says the Viscount before the current one was killed because he wanted the Templars gone and they really control the city. I doubt Hawke could change jack, at least when siding the mages you have their trust and could influence them to not attack innocents or talk some of them out of using blood magic.

Did you miss that said Viscount did not have the Templars Respect whereas Hawke does? Which is why the seekers want him because the Templars will listen to him.. And then Templars weren't at risk of Torture and Interrogations from the Seekers who want to weed out the chantry sympathisers

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX, I said free mages don't equal =\\= the Tevinter Imperium. I don't think it was appropriate to edit "\\" out of my quote. The Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivain witches, and the mages of Haven aren't the Tevinter Imperium. Free mages don't automatically mean another Tevinter.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I remember the mages were the edge against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, so I'd bet on the mages.

yeah but not all mages have turned against the chantry and the mages during those marches were not openly summoning demons in the masses that could result in the demons attacking and killing them

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX, did you miss the part where the Templars are the ones who rule Kirkwall? I wouldn't settle for being a puppet leader.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX, I said free mages don't equal == the Tevinter Imperium. I don't think it was appropriate to edit "" out of my quote. The Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivain witches, and the mages of Haven aren't the Tevinter Imperium. Free mages don't automatically mean another Tevinter.

Well if mages ruled the world though then it would. Because, like the Tevinters they would have political infights and the mage with more power wins. And more power means bloodmagic. You can't have mages become political powers, unless you want to repeat history. I agree though that mages should have more freedom. In the game I would have rather killed Cullen than let him bring Bethany to the Circle, but I didn't have that choice.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 08:11 .

[Cajeb]

So I just read that Orsino knew about the killer and your mom before the fact. Now there is no practical way to justify siding with him. He had a hand in your mom's death and he practices blood magic personally? Holy hell Meredith was right. I regret siding with him

[AlexXIV]

Cajeb wrote...

So I just read that Orsino knew about the killer and your mom before the fact. Now there is no practical way to justify siding with him. He had a hand in your mom's death and he practices blood magic personally? Holy hell Meredith was right. I regret siding with him

Well you don't know that until the end, so using that information is metagaming. But obviously that sits right with Bioware. But yeah, no reason to side with him if you know that.

[LobselVith8]

It's not an issue of siding with Orsino, it's siding with innocent people over an insane templar who wants to murder countless men, women, and children.

[Parrk]

Thedas is, for hte most part, a fragmented theocracy.  Many people simply accept the loose resemblance of the Chant to a certain religion popular in western societies and file the issue away as understood.  The Chantry-run common religion actually precludes freedom for all, not jsut mages.

Consider the Maker:  This is a diety who is credited with creation of all things.  He created mages and magic as a happenstace-semi-hereditary condition that is about as common as red hair is in America.  Certainly he must have foresaw the tevinter imperium, demon interactions, and all that goes along with magic.

try as I may,  I cannot find evidence of benevolence in his/her design of life Thedas, yet the people of the continent embrace their medieval-catholic-style overlords.  Magic got out of hand once, and the common Thedan is willing to accept that as evidence of a never-ending opression scheme imposed on so many whose only crime was being born.   Children ripped from their mother's arms at the age of 5 and locked in prison where they live under the constant threat of being lobotomized.

Consider the Chantry:  The Chantry is the central governing authority of the continent.  Often benevloent, but jsut as commonly the opposite, the body draws its claim to power exactly and only from their para-military arm's charge of "controlling the mage issue".  Their relevance and power relies on the people's fear of mages, so they spend most of their time working to ensure that that fear is healthy.

The entire system is built upon the oppression of 3-5% of hte community.  

There are several occasions where elected and hereditary rulers have expressed their displeasure at the Chantry's intrusion into their affairs and how their ability to govern is crippled by the meddling of the Chantry.

you cannot build a free society in Thedas without first decimating the political animal that is the chantry, and the military hate machine that is the templar order.  Certainly there are many long-standing societies and cultures in our world that have survived despite their refusal to reform into civil societies, but they do not flourish.

It comes down to whether you want ultimately to build a Thedas that values equality justicce and freedom, or whether you jsut want to get a few purple drops, a fade-to-black pseudo-sex-scene and a fwe achievements.

I reject the notion that siding with the templars is anything approaching honorable, or morally correct.

[SlayTheDragons]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry enslaves mages, Slay. I don't want to support that. I have no desire to be a pawn to the templars as Viscount of Kirkwall. I won't be able to accomplish anything when the Divine and the templars will countermand any changes I'd try to implement.

My only experience with the DA world was my playthrough in DA2 and it's hard to argue against the fact that mages are being raped, beaten, and are made tranquil by the templars within Kirkwall - I don't know how things are in other places. I was, and still am, pro-mage because of family, but was neutral during orsino's and meredith's first encounter to hear both sides. I sided with the templars in the end because of what Anders had done - I also found out what role Orsino played in Leandra's fate - and while I don't strongly believe in what Meredith or Orsino proposed, I had a lot of respect for what the Grand Cleric Elthina stood for. It was my hope that there are others within the Chantry similar to Elthina - I'm hoping the Divine is one of them - and that the situation had a better chance of improving if I sided with the templars. I'm still pro-mage and lil' sis still fought besides me in the end and I spared innocent mages on my way to fight Orsino. I think that route had more of an upside to it than what I've been hearing about people who sided with Orsino in their playthrough, but that's just my thoughts on things.

side note: I had every intention of getting rid of Meredith once I sided with the templars. The general impression I got from templars was that she was too extreme and wouldn't mind if she was replaced.

Modifié par SlayTheDragons, 13 mars 2011 - 08:26 .

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not an issue of siding with Orsino, it's siding with innocent people over an insane templar who wants to murder countless men, women, and children.

A mage caused the mess (Anders) and the right of annulment. Meredith may be crazy, but Orsino is not doing much better. The mages that surrended were left alone, because Hawke said so and Cullen stood behind my Hawke even against Meredith so she could only accept it.

The point is Orsino, by resorting to bloodmagic and turning into this thing, proves that everything Meredith did wasn't paranoia. Obviously even the first enchanter had studied blood magic. I am thinking he is the whole reason why things got out of hand. Merdith was a lunatic, but Orsino was a bloodmage and protected bloodmages. And all that while being the First Enchanter. Innocents die, true. But it is Orsino's fault as much as Merediths. So if you rule these both out you have victims on both sides. Templars as well as mages didn't cause it, but die for it. And my Hawke will never ever side with the person that is partly responsible for her mom's death. And even if she didn't die, Orsino would still have allowed the mad man to kill all these others. That's not something I or my Hawke can overlook.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not an issue of siding with Orsino, it's siding with innocent people over an insane templar who wants to murder countless men, women, and children.

A mage caused the mess (Anders) and the right of annulment. Meredith may be crazy, but Orsino is not doing much better. The mages that surrended were left alone, because Hawke said so and Cullen stood behind my Hawke even against Meredith so she could only accept it.

The point is Orsino, by resorting to bloodmagic and turning into this thing, proves that everything Meredith did wasn't paranoia. Obviously even the first enchanter had studied blood magic. I am thinking he is the whole reason why things got out of hand. Merdith was a lunatic, but Orsino was a bloodmage and protected bloodmages. And all that while being the First Enchanter. Innocents die, true. But it is Orsino's fault as much as Merediths. So if you rule these both out you have victims on both sides. Templars as well as mages didn't cause it, but die for it. And my Hawke will never ever side with the person that is partly responsible for her mom's death. And even if she didn't die, Orsino would still have allowed the mad man to kill all these others. That's not something I or my Hawke can overlook.

The mage who did it is an apostate, not a member of the Kirkwall Circle - and Meredith never mentions punishing him!!!!!!!

[Parrk]

Blood magic is like carrying a concealed firearm. Should you ever shoot someone, even in self defense, some will say that that is proof that you should have been imprisoned and tormented since birth.

A mage surrounded by templars, knowing that they will be forcibly lobotomized, imprisoned and probably killed, falls back on that last line of self-defense......anyone would, most at least.

Why do you not believe that mages should defend themselves by any means necessary when facing torture, mutilation and death?

[SlayTheDragons]

Parrk wrote...

Blood magic is like carrying a concealed firearm. Should you ever shoot someone, even in self defense, some will say that that is proof that you should have been imprisoned and tormented since birth.

A mage surrounded by templars, knowing that they will be forcibly lobotomized, imprisoned and probably killed, falls back on that last line of self-defense......anyone would, most at least.

Why do you not believe that mages should defend themselves by any means necessary when facing torture, mutilation and death?

i would agree in that it is like a firearm and people who are trigger happy and harm innocents as a result of that deserve to be imprisoned. should we torment them since birth? they haven't done anything yet, so i don't see the point in doing that. the one part i have against that statement is that a concealed firearm doesn't come equipped w/ a demon that corrupts you, but i get your point.

Modifié par SlayTheDragons, 13 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[fett51]

Well, we've got choices between Meredith & Orsino and Sebastian & Anders. Meredith is genocidal and Sebastian says he's going to flatten Kirkwall if you spare Anders. OTOH, Orsino covered up for Quentin and started using blood magic and Anders of course bombed a church. So it's a choice between genocidal fanatics and murderers. In terms of who is responsible for the deaths of the most innocent people, the choice is pretty clear.

[Kemor]

Templar all the way, death to all mages, including my own sister. It's hereditary so you wipe them all for a generation or two, then you're good.

Reason?
If you ****** of a Templar or if a Templar loses his nanny, he's gonna be angry, maybe fight a little bit, get drunk, then move on.
If you ****** off a Mage or the Mage loses his nanny, he's gonna go ape****, summon demons EVERYWHERE, kill women for 5 years then sew pieces back together to get his nanny back WHILE going completely nuts and wasting everyone in sight.

A normal templar usually puts his own life at risk to help others, it's usually a choice.
An angry templar doesn't matter, he's just human.
A normal mage can be as stupid, as good or not as any other human being, being a mage is not a choice.
An angry mage, you've got a REAL problem which requires really ****ed up solutions.

Plus, if you think about it...

No mage left in the world, no more templars either!



If Orsino would have actually MADE the counscious choice of dying WITHOUT resorting to Blood Magic, I might have reconsidered. But now, heh, I'd just waste them before they even say hello, be them mother, brother, sister, child, king, champion, whatever doesn't matter. Only exception is me, because if I die, who's gonna kill them all?

Modifié par Kemor, 13 mars 2011 - 11:38 .

[Drasill]

Siding with the Templars may be more logical for Hawke personally, but I think siding with the Mages is the noble thing to do. There are an overabundance of Blood Mages, but that is mainly due to the oppression they face. Also, at the end when Meredith invokes the right of annulment to kill the mages or make them tranquil I think is crossing the line.

[HarlequinKing]

Kemor wrote...

Plus, if you think about it...

No mage left in the world, no more templars either!

Actually, I find this annoying. According to the game lore, the Templar Order is supposed to be the militant arm of the Chantry in general; it doesn't exist solely to deal with mages. Alistair says just that when you ask him what templars do in Origins. For example, the templars in Lothering were keeping order when the regular troops left. And there was a templar in the Denerim alienage who you helped exorcise the orphanage.

But in DA2, the templars seemed to exist solely to deal with mages. *groan*

[Kemor]

Drasill wrote...

Siding with the Templars may be more logical for Hawke personally, but I think siding with the Mages is the noble thing to do. There are an overabundance of Blood Mages, but that is mainly due to the oppression they face. Also, at the end when Meredith invokes the right of annulment to kill the mages or make them tranquil I think is crossing the line.

Oh..I'm sorry. The "oppression" they face? Have you seen what an angry mage does? Well, I haven't met a SINGLE angry mage in DA2 that doesn't go completely nut crazy and invoke TONS of abominations.

If they just fled and joined another Circle, why not. I can understand that. Heck, if they just used normal magic to fight, why not!

But nearly every single one of them in Kirkwall go Blood Fueled if you look at them wrong and you're proven right that they will ALL go completely crazy as soon as you start fighting them at the end. Almost every single one of them is a crazy blood mage invoking demons left and right. There is NO logical reason to side with the mages in DA2, unless you're 100% with total anarchy, chaos and demons everywhere.

Also, oppression doesn't really give a mage the right to cut women in pieces and put them back together now does it? I mean, sure a non-mage can do that, but he can't actually make it walk and talk!

Modifié par Kemor, 13 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[IEK07]

Very interesting debate in this thread, i'm about to begin my second playthrough and reading through this has me changing my mind again and again.
Keep it up guys.

[elikal71]

It's a bit like asking in Europe of 1942: who will you join Stalin or Hitler?

Really, I did see only two bad sides, and I allied with the Mages, because essentially the Chantry and their Templars started the entire thing in the first place. THEY began to establish the Circles and the Templar control, so their evil was there earlier.

Did the Templar opression cause the many blood mages? I can't say. If I would have been free in the game, as soon as the Viscomte was dead I would have looked for outside help. King Alistair could have set a Viscomte and declare Kirkwall protected. Hawk could have gone to the head of the Chantry in Orlays and ask for a settlement. After all, Commander Meredith WAS subject of the Church.

I think my Hawk, supporting the Mages, did the best he could. What Anders did was wrong and the change of mind of the Mage Master in the end was wrong. But the opression of the Mages in that way was wrong and it started it all.

The Templars would have slain innocent and defenseless people. Fighting alongside the mages at least means to fight against soliders in a war. They knew what was coming and no one forced them to become a Templar. A Mage however did not chose to be a mage. So while the end was a tragedy, I think siding with the Mages was the best of the options the game offered.

[elikal71]

oops double post

Modifié par elikal71, 14 mars 2011 - 12:21 .