270 réponses à ce sujet

[fett51]

Kemor wrote...

But nearly every single one of them in Kirkwall go Blood Fueled if you look at them wrong and you're proven right that they will ALL go completely crazy as soon as you start fighting them at the end. Almost every single one of them is a crazy blood mage invoking demons left and right. There is NO logical reason to side with the mages in DA2, unless you're 100% with total anarchy, chaos and demons everywhere.

Pretty big stretch to say all of them were involved in that.  You may recall just that one blood mage on the docks had a dozen shades and a pride demon at her disposal.  Likewise the mage who turned into an abomination when the templars surrounded her in lowtown summoned a good number of shades and rage demons on her own.  If they had ALL gone blood magic demon crazy, the place would've been even worse than the tower in origins, and IIRC Cullen says it's not as bad.  I think it's more likely a few of them went crazy and the rest decided it wasn't a good time to start fighting each other for obvious reasons. 

[TJPags]

fett51 wrote...

Kemor wrote...

But nearly every single one of them in Kirkwall go Blood Fueled if you look at them wrong and you're proven right that they will ALL go completely crazy as soon as you start fighting them at the end. Almost every single one of them is a crazy blood mage invoking demons left and right. There is NO logical reason to side with the mages in DA2, unless you're 100% with total anarchy, chaos and demons everywhere.

Pretty big stretch to say all of them were involved in that.  You may recall just that one blood mage on the docks had a dozen shades and a pride demon at her disposal.  Likewise the mage who turned into an abomination when the templars surrounded her in lowtown summoned a good number of shades and rage demons on her own.  If they had ALL gone blood magic demon crazy, the place would've been even worse than the tower in origins, and IIRC Cullen says it's not as bad.  I think it's more likely a few of them went crazy and the rest decided it wasn't a good time to start fighting each other for obvious reasons. 

What about the dozens of others who spend Act 3 attacking you on the streets?

[fett51]

TJPags wrote...

What about the dozens of others who spend Act 3 attacking you on the streets?

As I recall the bunch in lowtown summoned 3 shades and only if you played the pro-templar ending.   Pretty poor showing for 10 or so mages. 

Modifié par fett51, 14 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[Dave of Canada]

fett51 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

What about the dozens of others who spend Act 3 attacking you on the streets?

As I recall the bunch in lowtown summoned 3 shades and only if you played the pro-templar ending.   Pretty poor showing for 10 or so mages. 

Apostates / Circle Mages attacked me on the streets before the final choice and I was pro-mage until that point, they used blood magic and summoned demons too.

[TJPags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

fett51 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

What about the dozens of others who spend Act 3 attacking you on the streets?

As I recall the bunch in lowtown summoned 3 shades and only if you played the pro-templar ending.   Pretty poor showing for 10 or so mages. 

Apostates / Circle Mages attacked me on the streets before the final choice and I was pro-mage until that point, they used blood magic and summoned demons too.

This is what I meant.

[Kemor]

TJPags wrote...

What about the dozens of others who spend Act 3 attacking you on the streets?

Well, I didn't have the option to actually NOT kill now these did I? Nope, they just attacked me, like all the others going blood crazy.

And I was so swarmed by abominations that I prolly didn't even notice them or something.

[Kemor]

fett51 wrote...

Pretty big stretch to say all of them were involved in that.  You may recall just that one blood mage on the docks had a dozen shades and a pride demon at her disposal.  Likewise the mage who turned into an abomination when the templars surrounded her in lowtown summoned a good number of shades and rage demons on her own.  If they had ALL gone blood magic demon crazy, the place would've been even worse than the tower in origins, and IIRC Cullen says it's not as bad.  I think it's more likely a few of them went crazy and the rest decided it wasn't a good time to start fighting each other for obvious reasons. 

Err, I don't even think I've fought as many demons in that tower than in DA2. I mean..There's just TONS of them.

Plus, if the actual mages decided to actually go AGAINST blood mages, I'd have help them against the Templars probably. But since most of them just go abomination crazy as soon as they're not happy with life, it's just safer for the world overall to kill every single one of them.

[NickV]

I just really wanted to finish the game as Viscount of Kirkwall with bloody homocidal Knight-Commander Meredith's head on a stick before the gates of my city.... Oh wat there is NO SUCH ENDING as she turns intto a ugly statue and then...game over & credits roll... ARRRG

[fett51]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Apostates / Circle Mages attacked me on the streets before the final choice and I was pro-mage until that point, they used blood magic and summoned demons too.

Kemor said at the end. As for the overall point, the ones in the conspiracy to off Meredith were presumably mostly dead by the time you make the final choice, which only goes to my original point: it's a big leap to assume the majority of mages left in Kirkwall at that time were of the crazy variety.

Kemor wrote...

Err, I don't even think I've fought as many demons in that tower than in DA2. I mean..There's just TONS of them.

Plus, if the actual mages decided to actually go AGAINST blood mages, I'd have help them against the Templars probably. But since most of them just go abomination crazy as soon as they're not happy with life, it's just safer for the world overall to kill every single one of them.

That's true of most enemies between the two games presumably because of the change in balance (or Varric's narration ). That's why I went with Cullen's interpretation.

As for the notion that mages turn that easily, were that true practically every mage everywhere would go abomination crazy as soon as they realized how much being a mage in Thedas screws them out of a normal life. Wynne, Anders, heck even Merrill proves that isn't true.

[Kemor]

fett51 wrote...

That's true of most enemies between the two games presumably because of the change in balance (or Varric's narration ). That's why I went with Cullen's interpretation.

True

As for the notion that mages turn that easily, were that true practically every mage everywhere would go abomination crazy as soon as they realized how much being a mage in Thedas screws them out of a normal life. Wynne, Anders, heck even Merrill proves that isn't true.

All are "heroes", therefore people with very strong believes, strong will usually. Merril uses blood magic a bit but is influenced by Hawke. Anders go nuts some other way

Mages can be anyone though, anything. Risk is just too big overall I think. Every single one is a possible time bomb, even Wynne. I mean, she'd clearly use her most powerful magic if something she belived in was at risk, like the Ashes of Andraste for example. That's the main problem. Normal people don't need a hero/champion/overpowered dude to take care of when they go nuts, you just need a couple guards. Mages, you're gonna need a bigger boat

Again, I take this purely looking at the balance, cold and detached. Is it worth risking it for the sake of just saving couple hundred lives, maybe couple thousands? I mean, there arn't THAT many mages and it seems genetic so wiping them out would actually solve the problem completely.

[Parrk]

Kemor wrote...

fett51 wrote...

That's true of most enemies between the two games presumably because of the change in balance (or Varric's narration ). That's why I went with Cullen's interpretation.

True

As for the notion that mages turn that easily, were that true practically every mage everywhere would go abomination crazy as soon as they realized how much being a mage in Thedas screws them out of a normal life. Wynne, Anders, heck even Merrill proves that isn't true.

All are "heroes", therefore people with very strong believes, strong will usually. Merril uses blood magic a bit but is influenced by Hawke. Anders go nuts some other way

Mages can be anyone though, anything. Risk is just too big overall I think. Every single one is a possible time bomb, even Wynne. I mean, she'd clearly use her most powerful magic if something she belived in was at risk, like the Ashes of Andraste for example. That's the main problem. Normal people don't need a hero/champion/overpowered dude to take care of when they go nuts, you just need a couple guards. Mages, you're gonna need a bigger boat

Again, I take this purely looking at the balance, cold and detached. Is it worth risking it for the sake of just saving couple hundred lives, maybe couple thousands? I mean, there arn't THAT many mages and it seems genetic so wiping them out would actually solve the problem completely.

I do not think I have seen anything that supports your theory of efficient genocide.  My understanding of magic in DA is that it is somewhat hereditary but also rather spontaneous.  Think of connor on DAO.  His parents were outright shocked that he had magic.  Perhaps one of his mother's grandparents had had magic, but even if you theorize a 50/50 hereditory-spontaneous split, then you will see that you can never actually complete your genocide.

[Kemor]

Parrk wrote...

I do not think I have seen anything that supports your theory of efficient genocide.  My understanding of magic in DA is that it is somewhat hereditary but also rather spontaneous.  Think of connor on DAO.  His parents were outright shocked that he had magic.  Perhaps one of his mother's grandparents had had magic, but even if you theorize a 50/50 hereditory-spontaneous split, then you will see that you can never actually complete your genocide.

Of course not, it's impossible.

But you already got plenty in places easily "cleansable" (Circles).

After that, it's a weeding out process, with Templar patrols going from village to village to clear the rest and handle uncontrolled mages, since they can sense it anyway. Have them also check pregnant women, maybe with a garrison where you need to report every single pregnancy or something.
After a decade or so of this, there will be so little left and everyone will be so scared to be caught around them that they'll either disappear into the wild (solving the child issue most likely) or never try anything.
Keep applying pressure for a generation, and you won't see another Kirkwall catastrophe anytime soon.

And yes, it would be an horrible business but from what Hawke have seen in DA2, I would totally make him organize this.

Modifié par Kemor, 14 mars 2011 - 02:37 .

[rumination888]

nenosronhir wrote...

Damnit. *takes off hat* XD

Edit: Granted, a loop in that hole I buried myself in is that Hawke is not siding with the Templars in general during the choosing, he/she is siding with Meredith. And if Hawke is inclined to protect the mages, it would be more logical for him/her to assume he/she could do a better job from their side, rather than Meredith's, yes?

When I chose to side with the Templars, I had hoped BioWare was aware that I was siding with the Templars and not pigeonhole me into agreeing with Meredith. Letting the mages go is basically the player's way of telling the game that they didn't agree with Meredith when they chose to side with the Templars.(the reverse also holds true - killing those innocent mages is the players way of telling the game that they agree with Meredith).

I sided with mages at every turn up until that point. I chose to side with the Templars for the explicit logical reason that I can protect more innocent Templars and mages from their more crazy members than if I sided with the mages.

[fett51]

Kemor wrote...

Mages can be anyone though, anything. Risk is just too big overall I think. Every single one is a possible time bomb, even Wynne. I mean, she'd clearly use her most powerful magic if something she belived in was at risk, like the Ashes of Andraste for example. That's the main problem. Normal people don't need a hero/champion/overpowered dude to take care of when they go nuts, you just need a couple guards. Mages, you're gonna need a bigger boat

That's why Templars exist? I don't think anyone disputes the need to have a force ready for when mages lose control. They also need to be kept from abusing their power as they do in Tevinter, and blood magic aside even they seem to know summoning demons and turning people into abominations is a really, really stupid thing to do. As for the numbers aspect, I've the same reason the people in the game use: Mages are kept around because they can also make a hugely positive contributions to society. They can save lives by healing, and they were supposedly instrumental in repelling the Qunari. Also, enchantment. Killing them all may be the "safest" course but that doesn't mean it's the best course.

[Yakko77]

Kemor wrote...

Parrk wrote...

I do not think I have seen anything that supports your theory of efficient genocide.  My understanding of magic in DA is that it is somewhat hereditary but also rather spontaneous.  Think of connor on DAO.  His parents were outright shocked that he had magic.  Perhaps one of his mother's grandparents had had magic, but even if you theorize a 50/50 hereditory-spontaneous split, then you will see that you can never actually complete your genocide.

Of course not, it's impossible.

But you already got plenty in places easily "cleansable" (Circles).

After that, it's a weeding out process, with Templar patrols going from village to village to clear the rest and handle uncontrolled mages, since they can sense it anyway. Have them also check pregnant women, maybe with a garrison where you need to report every single pregnancy or something.
After a decade or so of this, there will be so little left and everyone will be so scared to be caught around them that they'll either disappear into the wild (solving the child issue most likely) or never try anything.
Keep applying pressure for a generation, and you won't see another Kirkwall catastrophe anytime soon.

And yes, it would be an horrible business but from what Hawke have seen in DA2, I would totally make him organize this.

I just wish there was bit more variety in the manner in which we choose sides or even have a Cartman "screw this, I'm going home" to Ferelden option.

I'd prefer to side with the mages not to help a bunch of blood mages escape templar "justice" but to help a bunch of abused and persecuted mages escape a Templar atrocity.

Or, if I help the Templars it's to protect people from dangerous blood mages, not to carry out an act of genocide by wiping out every mage "just to be safe".

As it is, it seems the game forces you to choose between one evil or another.  IMO, the mages are a lesser evil (but only just barely) in that they were pushed into a corner but even then they should be held accountable for their actions as you don't vindicate youself by becoming the enemy those who persecuted you assumed you were all along.  As an example, one of if not the most battled decorated units in WWII in Europe was an all Japanese unit.  Their people were treated like the enemy and locked up in the States but when given the chance, they proved their honor and loyalty where as they could've shot their fellow Americans in the back for what was done to their fellow Japanese-Americans.  One could use the prejudice the Tuskeegee Airmen endured as another example and they went on to prove themselves as the most effective fighter unit in the American Air Force.

Modifié par Yakko77, 14 mars 2011 - 05:34 .

[Augustei]

What Anders did was a really bad move, the Llomeryn accord had just been broken and the Qunari are likely to return soon.. And then he goes and forces disunity between the two factions who were the only reason the last Invasion was stopped.. Now that they are fighting each other, The Qunari will take advantage of the chaos and assume control of nearly all, if not all Thedas. Lets see how much the mages enjoy their freedom under the Qun.. when they have their tongues cut out, their mouths stitched and having to wear masks and be leashed... Yeah The Mages future is looking real great thanks to Anders....

[WidowMaker9394]

I support the mages but a shocking amount of them in the Kirkwall Circle had turned to blood magic and the promises of demons due to Meredith. I sided with the Templars in my latest playthrough, not because I supported her or the Templar Order but because it was the best for Kirkwall.

It's the duty of the Champion to defend Kirkwall and if I had sided with the mages the Divine would have marched on Kirkwall. A few innocents had to die to spare the whole city.

[LobselVith8]

So it was inconvenient for him to want the emancipation of his people here and now? I think a thousand years is long enough for mage slavery to go on before someone decided that enough was enough. Personally, I don't think it's best for Kirkwall to murder innocent people on the demand of a Knight-Commander who is clearly out of her mind. I stood with the mages as an apostate Hawke. As for the mages, they want independence; that's why they break free from the Chantry in the end. If people forget that the mages were so vital against the Qunari the last time, I'm sure they'll get a reminder when they need to deal with their advanced technology.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So it was inconvenient for him to want the emancipation of his people here and now? I think a thousand years is long enough for mage slavery to go on before someone decided that enough was enough. Personally, I don't think it's best for Kirkwall to murder innocent people on the demand of a Knight-Commander who is clearly out of her mind. I stood with the mages as an apostate Hawke. As for the mages, they want independence; that's why they break free from the Chantry in the end. If people forget that the mages were so vital against the Qunari the last time, I'm sure they'll get a reminder when they need to deal with their advanced technology.

Yes, They will get a reminder when they have lost Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches to them, and they are already making their way and claiming territory in Nevarra and Ferelden... Even then though, its not like they will suddenly back down
Inconvenient is a mild way of putting it.. Anders Just Witnessed the Llomeryn Accord being broken and knows that they will return.. Then goes and causes disunity between the two factions that stopped the last invasion.

The Templars have rebelled.. They wont listen to The Chantry anymore. No Exalted Marches will be called and the mages will be to busy fighting for their freedom before they loose what little freedom they had before.

Tevinter will Invade as well, and the mages shouldn't expect sympathy from them at all. Tevinter doesn't want or car for Foreign mages. So they will either be killed by them or enslaved.

The Knight Commander isn't completely out of her mind until she betrays hawke, She is completely right that the people of Kirkwall will demand blood and try to kill the mages anyway.. Annuling the circle will help Maintain Order in the city.

Mage Freedom is Necessary yes, but they certainly wont get any freedom the route they are taking.
I really doubt the Templars will back down now, they already ignore their superiors. The mages are more likely to back down because of the great divide in their own ranks.. But still, quite unlikely.

If the rebellion was started before the accord was broken or after the next invasion is pushed back.. Then It would totally make sense to support anders and for the mages to fight for their freedom.. Right now though, It makes no sense.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 16 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[Icy Magebane]

The only reason my apostate Hawke didn't side with the Templars is that I thought Meredith would kill or tranquilize him when the fighting was over. If she wasn't so crazy, I would have happily sided with the Templars.

[Taleroth]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So it was inconvenient for him to want the emancipation of his people here and now? I think a thousand years is long enough for mage slavery to go on before someone decided that enough was enough. Personally, I don't think it's best for Kirkwall to murder innocent people on the demand of a Knight-Commander who is clearly out of her mind. I stood with the mages as an apostate Hawke. As for the mages, they want independence; that's why they break free from the Chantry in the end. If people forget that the mages were so vital against the Qunari the last time, I'm sure they'll get a reminder when they need to deal with their advanced technology.

Yes, They will get a reminder when they have lost Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches to them, and they are already making their way and claiming territory in Nevarra and Ferelden... Even then though, its not like they will suddenly back down
Inconvenient is a mild way of putting it.. Anders Just Witnessed the Llomeryn Accord being broken and knows that they will return.. Then goes and causes disunity between the two factions that stopped the last invasion.

The Templars have rebelled.. They wont listen to The Chantry anymore. No Exalted Marches will be called and the mages will be to busy fighting for their freedom before they loose what little freedom they had before.

Tevinter will Invade as well, and the mages shouldn't expect sympathy from them at all. Tevinter doesn't want or car for Foreign mages. So they will either be killed by them or enslaved.

The Knight Commander isn't completely out of her mind until she betrays hawke, She is completely right that the people of Kirkwall will demand blood and try to kill the mages anyway.. Annuling the circle will help Maintain Order in the city.

Mage Freedom is Necessary yes, but they certainly wont get any freedom the route they are taking.
I really doubt the Templars will back down now, they already ignore their superiors. The mages are more likely to back down because of the great divide in their own ranks.. But still, quite unlikely.

If the rebellion was started before the accord was broken or after the next invasion is pushed back.. Then It would totally make sense to support anders and for the mages to fight for their freedom.. Right now though, It makes no sense.

Freedom or death.  Death at the hands of Templars or death fighting the Qunari, it makes no difference.

Either the chantry grants them what they want, or the chantry will lose everything.

[RazorrX]

The way I look at it is this:

IF I am a rogue or Warrior - you just threatened to kill my sister. You threaten my sister and you die. You die hard.

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

So, nope - I can not see siding with the templars.

[KAAurious]

RazorrX wrote...

The way I look at it is this:

IF I am a rogue or Warrior - you just threatened to kill my sister. You threaten my sister and you die. You die hard.

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

So, nope - I can not see siding with the templars.

Pretty much that. I suppose that was the goal though, make the choice a bit more difficult.

[Augustei]

Taleroth wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So it was inconvenient for him to want the emancipation of his people here and now? I think a thousand years is long enough for mage slavery to go on before someone decided that enough was enough. Personally, I don't think it's best for Kirkwall to murder innocent people on the demand of a Knight-Commander who is clearly out of her mind. I stood with the mages as an apostate Hawke. As for the mages, they want independence; that's why they break free from the Chantry in the end. If people forget that the mages were so vital against the Qunari the last time, I'm sure they'll get a reminder when they need to deal with their advanced technology.

Yes, They will get a reminder when they have lost Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches to them, and they are already making their way and claiming territory in Nevarra and Ferelden... Even then though, its not like they will suddenly back down
Inconvenient is a mild way of putting it.. Anders Just Witnessed the Llomeryn Accord being broken and knows that they will return.. Then goes and causes disunity between the two factions that stopped the last invasion.

The Templars have rebelled.. They wont listen to The Chantry anymore. No Exalted Marches will be called and the mages will be to busy fighting for their freedom before they loose what little freedom they had before.

Tevinter will Invade as well, and the mages shouldn't expect sympathy from them at all. Tevinter doesn't want or car for Foreign mages. So they will either be killed by them or enslaved.

The Knight Commander isn't completely out of her mind until she betrays hawke, She is completely right that the people of Kirkwall will demand blood and try to kill the mages anyway.. Annuling the circle will help Maintain Order in the city.

Mage Freedom is Necessary yes, but they certainly wont get any freedom the route they are taking.
I really doubt the Templars will back down now, they already ignore their superiors. The mages are more likely to back down because of the great divide in their own ranks.. But still, quite unlikely.

If the rebellion was started before the accord was broken or after the next invasion is pushed back.. Then It would totally make sense to support anders and for the mages to fight for their freedom.. Right now though, It makes no sense.

Freedom or death.  Death at the hands of Templars or death fighting the Qunari, it makes no difference.

Either the chantry grants them what they want, or the chantry will lose everything.

The mages have alot more to loose than the chantry.. like more of their freedom. The chantry members can still live relatively normal lives under the Qun.... The mages, well under the Qun life wont be pretty for them.

[MICHELLE7]

I haven't sided with the templars yet...played twice...both times pro-mage...one good...one evil. Just found out on the second playthrough you can't become viscount(didn't even try the first time) without the templars and that kinda sucked...but it does show who really carries the power in the city doesn't it. From the mage point of view they are completely oppressive and controlling...I found it rather easy to play pro-mage...going be a lot harder to side with the templars.