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[Thiefy]

Side with the Templars and kill my baby sister who is part of the circle?

Nope, not happening. Not this playthrough anyway. Maybe if she were a GW or something, but not this playthrough.

[Tzarene]

Logical choice is a nice frame to put this under for me as well. A lot of the discussion has been revolving around the issue of mage freedom and rights but really this didn't do much in this decision for me.

Here are the important considerations of why siding with the Templars is better. Some have already been mentioned but I'll say them again since there were among my concerns too.

1) Orsino is an "enabler" to Quentin's crime of killing your mother and from my perspective, guilty by association. It's really not hard to put 2-and-2 together when you see the letter from "O" in Quentin's base and then Orsino is introduced later in the same Act (2). Orsino was also fully aware of the nature of Quentin's activities and even expresses mild interest in the letter. So the First Enchanter of Kirkwall Circle is condoning illegal mage practices (not just by Chantry standards) but by ethical standards (raising dead, mutilation and murder). And I'm supposed to believe that Hawke, whatever his stance on mage rights, will simply ignore this? I don't know about you but I wouldn't stand with the murderer (by association) of my mother within the immediate context of the game. If you sided with the Templars, your suspicisions are confirmed when you confront Orsino about this. It's not about mage rights, it's about the fact that Orsino is in the wrong relative to you, Hawke, and why anyone would side with him is beyond me.

2) Less important than 1 but still prevalent is the fact that you are the Champion of Kirkwall. The title Champion varies largely but the approach I took (and in my humble opinion what the game/world is implying) is that you are there to protect the people of the city and preserve order and remove threats from the city. Given this outlook, it is really the logical choice to side with the Templars who are the ones trying to keep the peace. This is confirmed by the fact that unlike the mage ending where Hawke fled the scene, he/she is regarded as a hero in Kirkwall and loved by the people. Kirkwall is Hawke's home; when Alistair asked me, I did not hesitate to say so.
The mage sympathizers would say that Meredith was crazy and called for the Annullment and spared Anders. Let's see the alternative. If the Annulment was not called then it would be as Meredith says (the people will cry for blood as the Chantry was destroyed by a mage) and if Meredith simply killed Anders right there, then she'd risk alienating Hawke's help so she let him/her decide (this obviously has gameplay influences as well, can't just kill a companion outright etc).
The cutscene where you get to spare the mages proves that the Templar order is there to preserve order. For his faults and misinterpretations, Cullen shines here "Because that is what a Templar does."

3) Sibling choices also not a concern. My Bethany always became a warden and that's beyond Circle/Templar influences, not to mention my warden import from DAO is also an Amell. Carver also either Templar or Warden, not an issue. Picking either side because your sibling is on that side is an irrelevant part of the decision in my humble opinion.

And I think I wrote enough on the matter but mainly I felt that consideration #1 is heavily undervalued because people simply missed on it because of macro concerns such as mage rights and freedom/tyranny etc.

[Simiancustard]

I gladly sided with the Templars, and then slid that terrorist Ander's throat (OK, granted it was a stab in the back), but I try to remember it as slitting his throat. It made sense given that he had just killed innocents in the Chantry, proceeded to take a dump on our friendship and sparked a war. Heinous acts of treachery deserves to punished by death.

Given that all the mages were eager to turn to blood magic, while we slaughtered them, pretty much confirms what Meredith and the anime former slave elf were talking about. In other words, "mages are potentially dangerous and will to turn to demons".

It just a pity, Meredith went bat crazy towards the end.

PS: If only the option to romance her, existed... Meredith... sigh! We could have ruled together.

[CrashTagger]

I'd say that the Templars look better in this game, and the Mages look like they're insane and abusers of their gift. To a certain degree, I'm positive with that.

My sister is a mage, and I made her a Warden to prevent her from dying since she's the only family I got left. My brother got killed by Darkspawn, and my mother got killed by an insane Mage... Yes, at that point I wanted to find each and every mage (apart from Merrill and Bethany <3 ) and rip their throat out. But a line that made me re-think in the game was "you can't condemn them all for the acts of one" (not exactly this, but this was the point). I couldn't overlook the fact that Anders, as much a douche as he was, healed people, and so on with everyone.

The Templars? They just wanted to make every mage a tranquil, a slave to their order. This, I cannot allow. They hunted down every mage, just to "silence" them. Why not make a ruse, under rules of course?

For me, both parties are as hostile and guilty for their acts.

Modifié par CrashTagger, 21 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[Big I]

Simiancustard wrote...
Given that all the mages were eager to turn to blood magic, while we slaughtered them, pretty much confirms what Meredith and the anime former slave elf were talking about. In other words, "mages are potentially dangerous and will to turn to demons".
.

If you find the Band of Three codex entries you learn that the rates of blood magic in Kirkwall are far higher than in other places. Turns out the Magisters purposefully weakened the veil in Kirkwall, making the people there more susceptible to possession and demonic influence. The templars built a Circle in spook central; good job guys.


Furthermore, those Circle mages who turned to blood magic only did so once Meredith invoked the Rite of Annulment. They acted out of desperation, not malice or greed.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Side with the Templars and kill my baby sister who is part of the circle?

Nope, not happening. Not this playthrough anyway. Maybe if she were a GW or something, but not this playthrough.

You can actually spare her if you side with the Templars.

[ToJKa1]

RazorrX wrote...

The way I look at it is this:

IF I am a rogue or Warrior - you just threatened to kill my sister. You threaten my sister and you die. You die hard.

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

So, nope - I can not see siding with the templars.

Pretty much this. Except with my current warrior that'll lose her sister in the Deep Roads, and after what happens in Act 2 ends up hating magic bitterly. So much so that i'll not even have a mage in her party after that. Hows that for role playing?

Modifié par ToJKa1, 21 mars 2011 - 01:48 .

[LobselVith8]

RazorrX wrote...

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

Meredith does turn on you if you're an apostate Hawke who sided with the templars. Is it a surprise? The Right of Anulment is about killing all the mages, and she's focused on killing every man, woman, and child with magical ability in Kirkwall. It's metagaming to know Hawke won't be killed when he sides with the templars. In the end, all Hawke gets is a role as Viscount, which means nothing since the templars are the de facto power of Kirkwall and eastern Thedas.

[Flunkorg]

Dude... meredith is a psycho *****.

[Yakko77]

RazorrX wrote...

The way I look at it is this:

IF I am a rogue or Warrior - you just threatened to kill my sister. You threaten my sister and you die. You die hard.

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

So, nope - I can not see siding with the templars.

x2

Also, acts of genocide are horrible enough but when said act is given some psudo-religious justification I hate it even more hence my going against the Templars.  I  spared Anders with my mage playthrough but with my rogue I  may kill him just to see how that plays out differently.

[Augustei]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Simiancustard wrote...
Given that all the mages were eager to turn to blood magic, while we slaughtered them, pretty much confirms what Meredith and the anime former slave elf were talking about. In other words, "mages are potentially dangerous and will to turn to demons".
.

If you find the Band of Three codex entries you learn that the rates of blood magic in Kirkwall are far higher than in other places. Turns out the Magisters purposefully weakened the veil in Kirkwall, making the people there more susceptible to possession and demonic influence. The templars built a Circle in spook central; good job guys.


Furthermore, those Circle mages who turned to blood magic only did so once Meredith invoked the Rite of Annulment. They acted out of desperation, not malice or greed.

I seem to recall encountering hundreds of blood mages before the Annulment.. Many of them outside Kirkwall as well

[tanerb123]

Flunkorg wrote...

Dude... meredith is a psycho *****.

but she is hot

[Augustei]

Yakko77 wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

The way I look at it is this:

IF I am a rogue or Warrior - you just threatened to kill my sister. You threaten my sister and you die. You die hard.

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

So, nope - I can not see siding with the templars.

x2

Also, acts of genocide are horrible enough but when said act is given some psudo-religious justification I hate it even more hence my going against the Templars.  I  spared Anders with my mage playthrough but with my rogue I  may kill him just to see how that plays out differently.

So you didn't kill a large group of people even though the option was basically:

* Kill The Mages, order is restored

Help the Mages, They all die anyway, Riots and revolts occour with the populace as they demand the blood of the mages for their actions in blowing up the chantry. An Exalted March is probably declared like Leliana said it would.
Sebastian returns to Starkhaven since you spared anders, raises an army to burn kirkwall to the ground as well.

So you didn't want to commit murder even though not doing it involves even more murder?

[Augustei]

tanerb123 wrote...

Flunkorg wrote...

Dude... meredith is a psycho *****.

but she is hot

Cassandra is better =P

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

Meredith does turn on you if you're an apostate Hawke who sided with the templars. Is it a surprise? The Right of Anulment is about killing all the mages, and she's focused on killing every man, woman, and child with magical ability in Kirkwall. It's metagaming to know Hawke won't be killed when he sides with the templars. In the end, all Hawke gets is a role as Viscount, which means nothing since the templars are the de facto power of Kirkwall and eastern Thedas.

Then the reasoning lies with "Screw this, Im saving my own hide.. The people of this city can sod off" lol

Very Heroic indeed

[dewayne31]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Side with the Templars and kill my baby sister who is part of the circle?

Nope, not happening. Not this playthrough anyway. Maybe if she were a GW or something, but not this playthrough.

You can actually spare her if you side with the Templars.

can you get back in your group fpor the fight with meredith?

[Augustei]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Side with the Templars and kill my baby sister who is part of the circle?

Nope, not happening. Not this playthrough anyway. Maybe if she were a GW or something, but not this playthrough.

You dont have to kill her, you can side with the Templars and spare her

[Augustei]

tanerb123 wrote...

Flunkorg wrote...

Dude... meredith is a psycho *****.

but she is hot

yeah... but she dyes her hair.. she could at least dye her eyebrows as well instead of looking rediculous

[Augustei]

Flunkorg wrote...

Dude... meredith is a psycho *****.

So is Orsino! lol, and his actions are more personal for Hawke as well

[Augustei]

Im wondering, can you side with the Templars, spare anders and have him stand by your side as you annul the circle? lol

[hazarkazra]

Flunkorg wrote...

Dude... meredith is a psycho *****.

Actually, remember when you do the 'Tranquil Solution' quest line for Anders? Meredith and the Gland Cleric both said no. Meredith even in the final quest line shows a point where she is genuine sorry for choosing the route she is on, but she feels this is what the people expect of her and she asks Orsino to provide an alternative to protect the people of Kirkwall.

Please note that Orsino not at one point considers the view point of the rest of Kirkwall, but is only focused on his own plight. No matter how many examples of dangerous blood mages or raging abominations they have seen, Orsino and the Circle *instead of say the Circle of Ferelden* show NO real concern for nor have made any real action to protect the people of Kirkwall.

PS: I guess I can count the Qunari invasion, but I count that as a case of self preservation. Qunari attack 'unleashed' mages on sight after all.

[Caladors]

More logical choice sure.
Meredith has the power, she can insure you become Viscount.
Many people will see you as a peace keeper.

Better choice I am not sure about that.
Wile as hazarkazra Meredith said no to 'Tranquil Solution' she still in the end wanted to kill all of the magi.
And wile it may have been no to all of the magi being tranquil do remember certain parts?
Like how Anders friend became tranquil and how he came back for a second?
He passed his harrowing.
Or what about that guy who was in love with a girl from the circle, the one where you here the conversation between him and her after she is made tranquil.

Logical but not better.

[Augustei]

Caladors wrote...

More logical choice sure.
Meredith has the power, she can insure you become Viscount.
Many people will see you as a peace keeper.

Better choice I am not sure about that.
Wile as hazarkazra Meredith said no to 'Tranquil Solution' she still in the end wanted to kill all of the magi.
And wile it may have been no to all of the magi being tranquil do remember certain parts?
Like how Anders friend became tranquil and how he came back for a second?
He passed his harrowing.
Or what about that guy who was in love with a girl from the circle, the one where you here the conversation between him and her after she is made tranquil.

Logical but not better.

Yeah but all those mages are going to die anyway, whether its from their own stupidity or from being stabbed and killed by the people of Kirkwall..

[Wereparrot]

If I ever side with the templars, I will only do it for Carver's sake.

It is clear to me that the Circle doesn't work. It inspires hatred towards the templars and the chantry and fear of magic among the populace; furthermore, the whole attitude towards magic provokes otherwise respectable mages to evil. If you hold someone at knife-point, you can't complain if that person takes out a gun and shoots you. I think it's a bit like locking up all the citizens from all the world's nuclear powers just because someone might use them. I also think that the fear of possession drummed into mages actually makes them more vulnerable to possession. Bethany seems to be the mage who is purest of heart, and she's an apostate. Co-incidence?

I think that if mages were free, it would mean that the usage of blood magic and the instances of possessions would decrease.

[Lisa_H]

Tzarene wrote...

2) Less important than 1 but still prevalent is the fact that you are the Champion of Kirkwall. The title Champion varies largely but the approach I took (and in my humble opinion what the game/world is implying) is that you are there to protect the people of the city and preserve order and remove threats from the city. Given this outlook, it is really the logical choice to side with the Templars who are the ones trying to keep the peace. This is confirmed by the fact that unlike the mage ending where Hawke fled the scene, he/she is regarded as a hero in Kirkwall and loved by the people. Kirkwall is Hawke's home; when Alistair asked me, I did not hesitate to say so.
The mage sympathizers would say that Meredith was crazy and called for the Annullment and spared Anders. Let's see the alternative. If the Annulment was not called then it would be as Meredith says (the people will cry for blood as the Chantry was destroyed by a mage) and if Meredith simply killed Anders right there, then she'd risk alienating Hawke's help so she let him/her decide (this obviously has gameplay influences as well, can't just kill a companion outright etc).
The cutscene where you get to spare the mages proves that the Templar order is there to preserve order. For his faults and misinterpretations, Cullen shines here "Because that is what a Templar does."

This was the main reason why my mage Hawke sided with the templars. She saw herself as a protector of all the people in Krikwall. The last she wanted was war between templars and mages on the streets of Kirkwall with common people caught in the middle.
And how many people would die if an angry mob attacked a mage because of what happened at the Chantry and that mage turned into an abomination to protect itself. Most abominations seem to lose all sense of who's friend and foe, and are likely to go on a killing rampage. But she did not like what she had to do. I think this was reflected beautifully in the speech she gave to her companions before the battle when she told them the mages were their brothers and sisters, but this had to be done. And when she convinced Merrill, that they had to side with templars to make what Anders set in motion as quick and painless as possible.