270 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Then the reasoning lies with "Screw this, Im saving my own hide.. The people of this city can sod off" lol

Very Heroic indeed

The mages, my friend. You're forgetting about the mages.

Seriously, I think the dicotomy lies with what side you think is the correct path. For me, Meredith was ordering the genocide of all mages in Kirkwall for an act committed by the man standing right in front of her. Instead of placing Anders under arrest, she orders the execution of all mages. Why should hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children with magical ability be murdered for something none of them did?  

Then everyone brings up the fact that we face abominations as a reason to murder the mages, but part of the reason is that the Veil is already weak in Kirkwall because of the centuries of slavery and death that took place during the reign of the Imperium, so it's doubtful the harsh conditions mages have had to endure under Meredith and all the templars who had no issues using torture, rape, and tranquility did anything to improve it. Not every mage we encounter is a blood mage or an abomination, and Varric addresses that many mages managed to escape Kirkwall to tell what happened at the Gallows Prison, which is why the Circles broke free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Given all the death that transpired, I wouldn't be surprised if the Veil was permanently sundered in Kirkwall because of the Rite of Anulment that Meredith ordered.

[RazorrX]

f

[Urazz]

Personally, I was basically on the middle ground on my mage. I sided with the templars when it came to blood mages and abominations but on apostates that didn't use blood magic, I let them escape.

I understood that we mages need to be watched over but imprisoning us and treating us like we had the plague was making things worse and driving more mages to desperation and resorting to blood magic or become abominations.

I ended up siding with the mages at the end of the game because Meredith kept on insisting on the right of annulment even though the mage that destroyed the chantry was right there. She was the one that seemed very unreasonable and a bit insane at that point.

[RazorrX]

From what I have seen/read Kirkwall was purposely altered by the Imperium.  The streets of original Kirkwall form glyphs.  Thousands of slaves were sacrificed in blood magic rituals below the city to the point there were eroded channels where the blood would flow.  The veil was purposely weakend for some reason.

The gallows was a prison for slaves.  Slaves were killed and sacrificed there.  The chantry decided to put the mage circle in the gallows (note this means it is not a nice towere like in Ferelden, but the mages are kept in cells).  

Since the veil is weakened all around Kirkwall, and probably especially near the gallows - how are mages supposed to resist the constant barrage of demons when they are also being abused/terrorized by the templar jailers? 

We know that the templars tranquil mages against their wills.  We know they tranquil Harrowed Mages.  We know they tranquil mages they do not like.  We know they tranqil mages they want to rape (was stated in a quest BY a templar).  We know they rape mages and threaten them with tranquility if they talk (Alain says this is happening to him).  We know from the FIRST time we arrive at Kirkwall that the Templars are extremely harsh to mages there.  We know that the Knight Marshall is okay with killing mages if they try to run (this was plainly stated in the quest where you find grace and alain).

SO you have an environment that has been shown throught history to cause mages to fall to demonic possession and blood magic as the site for the circle.  Then you take children who are already scared and unsure of themselves and put them in a prison where the 'guards' are allowed by the Knight Marshall to abuse them and you are shocked that so many actually DO turn to blood magic?

I am more surprised that all of them did not.

[allankles]

It was the easiest decision ever to side with the Mages, the crazy Templars want to wipe out every mage in Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate mage who wasn't even part of the Circle. The choices at the end of ME 2 were much more difficult.

I think the whole deal with blood magic needs to be explained better. In the DA comic it blood magic was a means to access magic when Templars shut down a Mages access to their power through the Fade (I forgot the name of the substance). In DA 2 I don't see a clear connection between demons and blood magic.

We know the barrier to the Fade is weak in Kirkwall but that doesn't tell us anything about why so many blood mages. I can understand why a mad man like Quintin turned to blood magic (to resurrect his wife), but why so many others, when their power with regular magic was still potent?

Modifié par allankles, 22 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Zan Mura]

You don't know of Meredith's possession yet at that time, so there are no guarantees you could even make it to the viscount's position. Even then, what real power would you have, when it's made perfectly clear that the Templar's and Meredith effectively command everything. Even the previous viscount was basically just a puppet when it came to the important things.

Siding with the templars strikes me as the logical choice in terms of long-term survival, yes. Siding with the mages, regardless of the outcome, would obviously make you an outlaw. Even if there was a balance to be found after the templar vs. mage civil war thing, it would take too long for you to just up and reap the benefits of it. But that's where we come down to principles. Do you want to make the safe choice? Or do you want to make the choice you believe in? I believe both choices have merit, depending on what goals and principles your Hawke happens to have.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 22 mars 2011 - 08:03 .

[allankles]

Yeah, becoming Viscount crossed my mind for a second and that was it. You'd have no real power, not without being able to command the guard and reducing the numbers and presence of the Templars in the city.

[Augustei]

Urazz wrote...

Personally, I was basically on the middle ground on my mage. I sided with the templars when it came to blood mages and abominations but on apostates that didn't use blood magic, I let them escape.

I understood that we mages need to be watched over but imprisoning us and treating us like we had the plague was making things worse and driving more mages to desperation and resorting to blood magic or become abominations.

I ended up siding with the mages at the end of the game because Meredith kept on insisting on the right of annulment even though the mage that destroyed the chantry was right there. She was the one that seemed very unreasonable and a bit insane at that point.

If you ask me she didn't seem insane until the very end where she starts pointing Soul Edge around... She sums it up pretty well "The people will demand blood and I will give it to them" Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong.. As the champion you should be trying to maintain order and stability which is something you definitly wont accompish siding with mages.. Im not saying mages deserved what they got, Im not saying that on the larger scale the Templars are all right... Im just saying in the immediate situation with the circle of Kirkwall.. Siding with the Templars is the right thing to do.

Sister Nightingale informs you that an Exalted March was being considered on Kirkwall by the divine.. And do you think siding with the mages will help matters? Its inevitable all those mages are going to die, better to do it now to stop an Exalted March being declared and mass riots in the streets from occouring.

As for Meredith vs Orsino however, Meredith was completely right there. Demanding to search the tower believing he was harboring blood mages. Which he was! a whole ****load of them! plus he was a blood mage himself

Then theres the whole "The irony is I didn't even use blood magic before now".. Meredith sums it up pretty well here as well "Do you take me for a fool! One does not simply learn such magic without studying or practice" (Or something like that)

[Augustei]

RazorrX wrote...

From what I have seen/read Kirkwall was purposely altered by the Imperium.  The streets of original Kirkwall form glyphs.  Thousands of slaves were sacrificed in blood magic rituals below the city to the point there were eroded channels where the blood would flow.  The veil was purposely weakend for some reason.

The gallows was a prison for slaves.  Slaves were killed and sacrificed there.  The chantry decided to put the mage circle in the gallows (note this means it is not a nice towere like in Ferelden, but the mages are kept in cells).  

Since the veil is weakened all around Kirkwall, and probably especially near the gallows - how are mages supposed to resist the constant barrage of demons when they are also being abused/terrorized by the templar jailers? 

We know that the templars tranquil mages against their wills.  We know they tranquil Harrowed Mages.  We know they tranquil mages they do not like.  We know they tranqil mages they want to rape (was stated in a quest BY a templar).  We know they rape mages and threaten them with tranquility if they talk (Alain says this is happening to him).  We know from the FIRST time we arrive at Kirkwall that the Templars are extremely harsh to mages there.  We know that the Knight Marshall is okay with killing mages if they try to run (this was plainly stated in the quest where you find grace and alain).

SO you have an environment that has been shown throught history to cause mages to fall to demonic possession and blood magic as the site for the circle.  Then you take children who are already scared and unsure of themselves and put them in a prison where the 'guards' are allowed by the Knight Marshall to abuse them and you are shocked that so many actually DO turn to blood magic?

I am more surprised that all of them did not.

One cannot assume the actions of one member of the order are the views of the entire order, Otherwise it could be assumed that the grey wardens wanted to blow up that chantry...
That templar asked for all the mages to be made tranquil, and was denied.. One Templar mentioned rape.. One! Doesn't mean all the Templars are rapists... Otherwise yeah by the same logic Grey Wardens are all homocidal maniacs.

[Augustei]

Zan Mura wrote...

You don't know of Meredith's possession yet at that time, so there are no guarantees you could even make it to the viscount's position. Even then, what real power would you have, when it's made perfectly clear that the Templar's and Meredith effectively command everything. Even the previous viscount was basically just a puppet when it came to the important things.

Siding with the templars strikes me as the logical choice in terms of long-term survival, yes. Siding with the mages, regardless of the outcome, would obviously make you an outlaw. Even if there was a balance to be found after the templar vs. mage civil war thing, it would take too long for you to just up and reap the benefits of it. But that's where we come down to principles. Do you want to make the safe choice? Or do you want to make the choice you believe in? I believe both choices have merit, depending on what goals and principles your Hawke happens to have.

IMO siding with the mages makes you completely unworthy of the title of champion.. Because your pretty much saying that you dont care about Kirkwall, your pretty much making an Exalted March being declared a definite outcome.. And by the time the armys arrive anyway. The city would have torn itself apart from everyone trying to kill the mages for what happened to the chantry

[RazorrX]

XxDeonxX wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

From what I have seen/read Kirkwall was purposely altered by the Imperium.  The streets of original Kirkwall form glyphs.  Thousands of slaves were sacrificed in blood magic rituals below the city to the point there were eroded channels where the blood would flow.  The veil was purposely weakend for some reason.

The gallows was a prison for slaves.  Slaves were killed and sacrificed there.  The chantry decided to put the mage circle in the gallows (note this means it is not a nice towere like in Ferelden, but the mages are kept in cells).  

Since the veil is weakened all around Kirkwall, and probably especially near the gallows - how are mages supposed to resist the constant barrage of demons when they are also being abused/terrorized by the templar jailers? 

We know that the templars tranquil mages against their wills.  We know they tranquil Harrowed Mages.  We know they tranquil mages they do not like.  We know they tranqil mages they want to rape (was stated in a quest BY a templar).  We know they rape mages and threaten them with tranquility if they talk (Alain says this is happening to him).  We know from the FIRST time we arrive at Kirkwall that the Templars are extremely harsh to mages there.  We know that the Knight Marshall is okay with killing mages if they try to run (this was plainly stated in the quest where you find grace and alain).

SO you have an environment that has been shown throught history to cause mages to fall to demonic possession and blood magic as the site for the circle.  Then you take children who are already scared and unsure of themselves and put them in a prison where the 'guards' are allowed by the Knight Marshall to abuse them and you are shocked that so many actually DO turn to blood magic?

I am more surprised that all of them did not.

One cannot assume the actions of one member of the order are the views of the entire order, Otherwise it could be assumed that the grey wardens wanted to blow up that chantry...
That templar asked for all the mages to be made tranquil, and was denied.. One Templar mentioned rape.. One! Doesn't mean all the Templars are rapists... Otherwise yeah by the same logic Grey Wardens are all homocidal maniacs.

It is established fact that the circle in Kirkwall is under draconian rule.  It is established fact that even the common people talk about how harsh it is there.

A templars sister talks about how harrowed mages are tranquiled agains their will.  Anders talks about it (if you can believe anything he says).   (( act 1))

His friend was a harrowed mage who was made tranqil to scare others into obedience.  (( act 1))

Alain, the mage you capture - the one who willingly gives up - tells you that he is being raped and that he has beenthreatened with Tranquility if he says anything.  ((act 1 I think, could be 2 when he says it))

When the templar says he is going to rape the girl, notice that NONE of his buddies say no?  Did anyone in any playthrough have any dialog where the templars with him try and stop him?  Or was it just my playthrough where they were all helping him bring her in? (( act 2))

When you are sent into the cave to bring out the starkhaven mages, the
templar who is coming is known as a killer of mages.  When you go
outside it is all that Thrask can do to prevent the murder of the
mages.  His statement is that the Knight Commander prefers to kill run
aways so they can not 'taint' the rest of the mages.

Notice that you are already seeing abuse going on PRIOR to the lyrium idol?  THen you notice how many templars are actively turning against the order by act 3, when it gets just too much?

Now I know that you personally feel that you should side with the templars, even though it means killing your sister or letting them kill you (because that is what annulment means,  EVERY mage is to be killed).  Without meta data, that is what you are supporting.   And more power to you for that convition.  In my prefered DA:O run I did the ultimate sacrifice because I felt it was for the greater good.  Sometimes sacrificing one self for the greater good is what is called for.  

However trying to deny the fact that it is established that the templars in Kirkwall ARE abusive is just wrong.

Modifié par RazorrX, 22 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[Cismontane]

Finally played both versions, and I have to say that I believe siding with the mages is illogical for a non-mage Hawke in a society with a decidedly late middle ages/pre-modern mindset. Remember that notions of individual and collective responsible were a bit muddled until the Enlightenment or later in Europe, in our own timeline, and the church-nobility-oriented feudal system in place in Thedas seems about as classically 13th or 14th century as one can get.

Sure.. given her family background, Hawke might've been sympathetic to mages on account of Bethany at the onset, but after battling abominations and blood mages for 7 years before the climax, losing her mother to a blood mage, hearing firsthand from Fenris about depravity among mages in the Tevinter magocray, and living with constant rumors of Mage conspiracies, her view might very well have changed.

Yes, the Templars are fascist thugs, but this story takes place centuries before recognizable, ideological fascism would've evolved. Maybe the dwarves would recognize it, but I doubt very much humans would. Notions like fundamental himam rights and an understanding of the difference between individual and collective guilt wouldn't have been around yet. Remember, when the chantry retook Rivain, they supposedly slaughtered Qun converts and left them in mass graves. Nobody seemed to think this was a problem. Thugs with swords protect the faith, the king and one's own kind by brutalizing "others." In fact, it is likely that Hawke would not regard it as hypocritical at all to have mage friends and a mage sister she loves and protects while still understanding the danger posed by other mages. She might be sympathetic. she might hope and pray for peace. she might object to overly harsh treatment of mages. But I doubt she would a moral template for understanding big picture ideas like distinguishing collective moral responsibility from genetic predisposition.

In this light, she probably dislikes Meredith, but might still recognize the necessity or even righteousness of her actions. Also, Meredith comes off as harsh and cruel, but her personal story makes that understandable. Her lyrium-caused derangement was not absolutely apparent until the very end, at the moment Cullen turns on her. Frankly, remember the type of things politicians were saying about Muslim Americans collectively right after 9/11? Some were no less harsh than some of the things Meredith said about mages before she actually ordered the annulment (which didn't come until after Hawke picked sides). And our politicians had at least 700 years of moral and ethical development beyond the level of development in Thedas in the Dragon Age.

I also that non-Tevinters understand that mages need to be protected and society protected from them because of the risk of abomination and that in Tevinter the bar is set at a different level (to paraphrase Fenris) because life for non mages is so much cheaper there. Mages who might become abominations rule and weigh the lives of their own subjects and slaves so lightly that they may not think those people are worth protecting from the risk. Yes, they'd then have to kill the Mage but who cares if the Mage first killed a few score slaves and peasants. Fereldens and free marchers would attach a different moral standard to such behavior.

All told, whatever we might believe as modern people, I think that Hawke would probably have no problems siding with the Templars. She might even take the view that she can let the Templars do their duty and deal with the immediate crisis, then turn on Meredith and assassinate her something.

[MColes]

The problem is, we're not forced with a choice of siding with ideals. You could be pro templar the entire game ( I wasnt, but I do completely understand honestly. Like, Im pro freedom, I dont carer if theyre mages or whatever. Mages DO need to be policed, and held accountable.) But its at the end.. because Anders is a giant piece of ****, he forces Meredith's hand to enact the Right of Annulment. THATS the problem. Wiping out innocent people, killing all of them because one guy was a complete dumb ass, is not justified! Id have liked to see him get tried, found guilty, taken to the highest point of the city, and ripped apart piece by piece. I helped Anders so many times, I fought for the freedom of Mages because freedom is right, but when that dick blew up the chantry, he deserved to die. But Meredith could not be allowed to invoke annulment and slaughter innocents.

[Cismontane]

But that's just the thing. in a medieval mindset, I'm not sure most people would recognize that the mages (who are not beloved family members) are truly divisible between innocents and guilty ones. That clarity is a modern notion. Sure, people might be inclined to think that Meredith is being overly harsh and cruel toward mages or that she and more templars had lost their way from the teachings of their faith, but there would be much more uncertainty about the collective versus individual responsibility. intellectually, educated people would get that distinction but, unlike in our own time, most people would not have internalized that automatic sense of injustice into their psyches.

Ironically, I suspect the only people who would be likely to have such moral clarity in Thedas would be the church itself. They'd be the only truly read and educated ones. In fact, Bioware paints them this way. The only non-mages heard to maturely defend the "good" mages are a few good Templars and he Grand Cleric. This is also very realistic IMO. Few lay people would get that distinction yet... Highly unlikely that a largely unread refugee and adventurer like Hawke does.

[MColes]

You're also mistaking Thedas for real world medievil europe. In the context of the story, people know Slavery is wrong. Is that a modern notion? In Thedas, or the real world. You're trying to say you can't apply modern mindset, by comparing a fictional world's views of ethics and morality to our own. The "Reality" is, you can not compare the two fairlym, as one is fictional and so you have no real ground to compare from.

[Cismontane]

I'm just saying that the similarities are pretty striking, with the one key difference being the treatment of women, and that is completely explained in the history of the Andrastrean chantry.

Slavery existed in medeival Europe but I think most people in the northern countries were pretty uncomfortable with it.. Mostly because it evoked Roman/Byzantine excess (just like it does Tevinter excess in Theda. The church certainly hated it and preached it's evils. A lot of nobles ignored those teachings of course, but c'est la vie. In Europe, acceptance of slavery increased in the south toward the end of the period, but we're not at that point yet in Thedas.

If Thedas isn't supposed to evoke medeival Europe, they're doing a pretty lousy job convincing us otherwise. Scheheron, Cordoba and the western caliphate, Par Vallon, the Turks and the eastern Caliphate, Tevinter, Byzantium, the Imperial Chantry, the Orthodox Archonates, the Andrastrean Chantry, the Latin Church, the Free Marches are perhaps the Hanse, etc etc. A lot of writings in the lore are pretty classic medieval ethics.. A lot of the views expressed by companions and others also play into classic medeival moral dialectics. I don't think they could've made it more clear, actually.

[LightningOkami]

I sided with the mages in my first playthrough, i didn't like the fact that Meredith was going to kill all the mages, plus Bethany was with them so i wasn't gonna let Meredith have her way and murder my sister too. Meredith was far too power-hungry for my liking.
I feel sorry for Orsino.. He had lost hope so resorted to blood magic like some of the other mages did beforehand, he didn't intend to turn on those who were on his side, but a demon is a demon.

I may side with her on my next playthrough just to see how it turns out. ;P

[Urazz]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Zan Mura wrote...

You don't know of Meredith's possession yet at that time, so there are no guarantees you could even make it to the viscount's position. Even then, what real power would you have, when it's made perfectly clear that the Templar's and Meredith effectively command everything. Even the previous viscount was basically just a puppet when it came to the important things.

Siding with the templars strikes me as the logical choice in terms of long-term survival, yes. Siding with the mages, regardless of the outcome, would obviously make you an outlaw. Even if there was a balance to be found after the templar vs. mage civil war thing, it would take too long for you to just up and reap the benefits of it. But that's where we come down to principles. Do you want to make the safe choice? Or do you want to make the choice you believe in? I believe both choices have merit, depending on what goals and principles your Hawke happens to have.

IMO siding with the mages makes you completely unworthy of the title of champion.. Because your pretty much saying that you dont care about Kirkwall, your pretty much making an Exalted March being declared a definite outcome.. And by the time the armys arrive anyway. The city would have torn itself apart from everyone trying to kill the mages for what happened to the chantry

I don't see how siding with the mages is saying you don't care about Kirkwall.  Without meta gaming it basically looked like an exalted march was going to be called onto Kirkwall regardless of which side you picked due to Anders and Meredith.

Modifié par Urazz, 23 mars 2011 - 03:17 .

[Pileyourbodies]

LightningOkami wrote...

I sided with the mages in my first playthrough, i didn't like the fact that Meredith was going to kill all the mages, plus Bethany was with them so i wasn't gonna let Meredith have her way and murder my sister too. Meredith was far too power-hungry for my liking.
I feel sorry for Orsino.. He had lost hope so resorted to blood magic like some of the other mages did beforehand, he didn't intend to turn on those who were on his side, but a demon is a demon.

I may side with her on my next playthrough just to see how it turns out. ;P

It turns out better much much better.

You get to spare some mages from the rite of annulment
You learn Orsino didn't lose hope and resort to blood magic but that he infact was well versed in it and helped kill your mom
You get to reunite with bethany and stay merediths hand
You earn Cullens respect.

[Cismontane]

And best of all, you get to see the templars bow down before you .. Hehe

[LightningOkami]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LightningOkami wrote...

I sided with the mages in my first playthrough, i didn't like the fact that Meredith was going to kill all the mages, plus Bethany was with them so i wasn't gonna let Meredith have her way and murder my sister too. Meredith was far too power-hungry for my liking.
I feel sorry for Orsino.. He had lost hope so resorted to blood magic like some of the other mages did beforehand, he didn't intend to turn on those who were on his side, but a demon is a demon.

I may side with her on my next playthrough just to see how it turns out. ;P

It turns out better much much better.

You get to spare some mages from the rite of annulment
You learn Orsino didn't lose hope and resort to blood magic but that he infact was well versed in it and helped kill your mom
You get to reunite with bethany and stay merediths hand
You earn Cullens respect.

Sounds good to me ;P
Can't wait to see it at the end of my 2nd playthrough =D
A lot of choices are a twist, you'll think one is the best decision from what's shown right in your face, but down the road it can turn chaotic as hell, where-as the other choice could've turned out much better XD -- That's what the choices between Mages and Templars made me feel. Love moments like that though ^^

Cismontane wrote...

And best of all, you get to see the templars bow down before you .. Hehe

That's definitely worth seeing!

Modifié par LightningOkami, 23 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[Cismontane]

Also, I'm not sure how thorough Meredith's annulment really was. You can use your imagination of course, but with so many of the Templars fighting demons, malifecars and abominations, I'm not sure where they'd have found the time to go through hundreds of cells to search out and slaughter all of the mages inside the gallows... for all we know, most of the mages survived by hiding in corners and cells... Just like they apparently did during Uldred's uprising in Ferelden. Also, I suspect that more than a few Templars really didn't put their hearts into the whole exercise.. Presumably they only showed themselves at their most murderous when Meredith was physically present to urge them on, and she couldn't have been everywhere at once.

[Redflametrow]

The Right of Annulment was unjust. From a logical standpoint the end cannot justify the means. Therefore the side of opposing the actions of the templars is the logical choice. Not saying that most the mages shouldn't be logically executed, but if there's one innocent mage for every guilty one, the innocent one would be illogical to kill. The problem is the solution is to compromise. Making them all Tranquil would have even been a better compromise, though still rather horrific.

I see how being on the templar side could have been more beneficial, but it still doesn't pass the logical check of the end justifying the means.

Really the whole thing of killing all the mages for the actions of some seems to be, if not is, genecide; which is frowned upon universally. The mages are similar to many discriminated factions in that they are simply born different. The whole danger they can pose is a valid point to make that is elitist, but most people won't mind it. Mages can be individually very dangerous. The problem is that they're not the only dangerous ones. Logain was the biggest threat in the first game with the Blight as the biggest potential threat. Since a ruler can be a bigger threat than an apostate, should there be no rulers? Even the templars are corruptible and can defeat mages, so should they be destroyed? The Grey Wardens are bound by nothing other than the taint in their blood and yet are far stronger than ordinary humans, should they be destroyed? In the end every living thing posses a danger. Should the most dangerous living things be killed once they pose a threat? Is what it comes down to for me. Even look at the United States, World Trade Centers destroyed and the power to kill every Muslim. Should the United States kill all Muslims because of extremist groups? No. Which makes me realize the fallacy your argument holds is the slippery slope, so as a whole it cannot work due to the ramifications of similar thinking.

Keeping Anders around is even a difficult decision when you think about whether or not he'd be of more use dead or alive. I chose to keep him merely because he was needed (not actually needed but useful) to fight against the Templars who were the clear and present danger. Anders, I'm not so sure about at all. To me, killing him simply would not undo anything. Sebastian would have been a good reason, but pressure to take his life isn't enough to make it the only option. Knowing that no one knows where you are in the start of the game helps to make these decisions that should complicate the future.

So yeah, definitely not sure about Anders, but like Logain I didn't feel like killing him (let Alistar kill him the first playthrough). I'm fairly certain that the genocide of the mages was wrong. Being from the Circle in Origins I saw what type of mages could exist within and thought those types or better deserved to be judged for their own actions.

[Fangirl17]

This was probably mentioned already but I feel as though they made it so that both choices make you second guess yourself. With the mage choice Orsino turns to disturbing blood magic and it feels like a lot of mages you encounter while getting to the final fight turned into abominations and attacked you. Now I haven't personally sided with the templars but killing every mage seems a bit too drastic for me,but I get why Meredith made that choice. And the person who is leading the templars goes insane. I think they definably wanted you to doubt your choice a little,unless you feel as your choice was right no matter what happened.

[Redflametrow]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

The way I look at it is this:

IF I am a rogue or Warrior - you just threatened to kill my sister. You threaten my sister and you die. You die hard.

IF I am the apostate - I try really hard to be the voice of reason, but in the end - the Templars are indirectly responsible for what happened, once all the mages are dead I assume they will turn on me, and thus they need to die.

So, nope - I can not see siding with the templars.

x2


Also, acts of genocide are horrible enough but when said act is given some psudo-religious justification I hate it even more hence my going against the Templars.  I  spared Anders with my mage playthrough but with my rogue I  may kill him just to see how that plays out differently.

So you didn't kill a large group of people even though the option was basically:

* Kill The Mages, order is restored

Help the Mages, They all die anyway, Riots and revolts occour with the populace as they demand the blood of the mages for their actions in blowing up the chantry. An Exalted March is probably declared like Leliana said it would.
Sebastian returns to Starkhaven since you spared anders, raises an army to burn kirkwall to the ground as well.

So you didn't want to commit murder even though not doing it involves even more murder?

Actually the Sebastion thing is pretty negligable. He marches his men on Krikwall, and meets the Exaletd March would either destroy the city itself or stop his army as it'd likely be pointless to fight such a larger force. If they do fight, then there are that many less enemies in the world. I figured as a dlc character that he didn't matter that much. I could be wrong, but also he's a pretty big failure. He failed to protect his family and the Grand Cleric (what was he even doing outside the Chantry?). He'd probably fail at other things. So yeah, no love for Sebation here.