64 réponses à ce sujet

[Influ]

So, I'm starting an infiltrator playthrough on insanity sometime soon and have some things about the build I'd like your opinions. First things first, the build.

10 Heavy Disruptor Ammo
0 Cryo ammo
10 Assassination Cloak
10 Area/Heavy Incinerate
1 AI Hacking
10 Operative (Assassin)
10 Warp Ammo

That's pretty much the same build that I used on my last infiltrator run, but that was on veteran. So, I will be rolling out the Widow again. I love that rifle. I'm thinking it will benefit way more of Warp Ammo than Tungsten. The extra 20% damage with Tungsten wouldn't make much of a difference against most enemies compared to Warp Ammos added damage to barriers, right?

Then there's which Incinerate to choose. I'm thinking Incineration Blast, since I'm rocking the Widow and that does massive amounts of damage against armor as well. No real need to have that extra kick for Incinerate over the extended AOE.

Also not really relating to builds, but I'm torn whether or not to start a NG+. I'd have my belowed Anti-Materiel rifle from the start, but I do like the leveling up aspect of the game as well. Gameplay wise, how much does the enemy scaling impact the overall experience on NG+?

Any other insights are of course also welcome.

[XCPTNL]

The build is alright for an assassin infiltrator. I have played a few like this myself. But I retrained my last one and made him a Cryo-Reaver-Agent with Viper and Mattock because I can play this build more aggressively than a pure assassin. But if you are going for the Widow assassin this build is what it should look like. You are correct on the Tungsten vs. Warp matter. You really don't need Tungsten but you need something to smash through barriers. So Heavy Warp is fine, Heavy Disruptor for the shielded enemies. I'd go with Incineration Blast as well to strip the armor off of more Husks quickly. Personally I'd spend the 1 point for Cryo Ammo just for Husk fights though (Incinerate, use Predator HP with Cryo, Husk freeze = instakill).

Other insights: get +damage gear and prepare to switch between long distance and close quarter combat regularly. Because you only have so much ammo for the Widow and nothing else but your SMG. Which is great if you get close but not that great for midranged fights on Insanity because you have to sit behind cover and regenerate way too often. But if you use Cloak aggressively (and not just for sniping) to flank enemies, get close and punish them with the Shuriken or Tempest then this build can be fun. I don't recommend the Locust. You will have better accuracy with this one but what most likely will happen is that you sit behind cover at long and midrange too much switching between sniping and slowly shooting with the Locust. The Shuriken and Tempest force you to play aggressive. They are really great up close but pretty bad for most other ranges. So thin out the herd with the Widow, then sneak in for SMG carnage and you'll probably have way more fun that way.

Modifié par Korjyan, 13 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[Sailears]

You can go with warp ammo - it's a good general purpose thing, and looking at that build I take it you plan to focus heavily/solely on sniping.

Having 10 warp ammo and 10 heavy disruptor though; I'd drop one of them. Also heavy disruptor will explode synthetics, so will be ok if you're planning to take out everything at range. Otherwise consider squad disruptor, or even 2/3point disruptor. And yes AP ammo isn't that useful unless you're on a blood pack mission or something.

Have you considered neural shock or energy drain as bonus powers? Specifically neural shock, and you only need 1 point (3s cooldown).

Also having at least 1 point in cryo ammo is well worth it. Stick it on a pistol - quite useful.

Generally you can have the combinations:
2/3pt disruptor, squad cryo
squad disruptor, 1pt/improved cryo.

Having 1point in cryo ammo or AI hacking, and neural shock will give you the ability to say "STOP! Hammertime!" to organics and synthetics.
If you're not worried about roleplaying the class too much, stasis is even great.

Above all, take advantage of respeccing the bonus power once you get the advanced training (after getting Mordin). There are so many ways to play the infiltrator, it's difficult to suggest any without you trying them out first.

I'd go for incineration blast, because the aoe is more useful. As you said, widow packs enough of a punch that you don't need incinerate for pure damage. 3 point incinerate also works well enough, giving you 4 points to spend elsewhere.

NG/NG+ is subjective, but having widow from the start is a lot of fun. I wouldn't worry about difficulty. Apart from before recruiting Mordin when you only have upgrades you can buy (maybe worth taking a tour of the citadel and omega and buying what you need first), there shouldn't be any problem, especially for the infiltrator.

[Influ]

@Korjyan: Well that sounds very much like what I imagined this build to play like. I will be taking Cryo Ammo over AI Hacking by your suggestion. AI Hack with only one point in it is not that useful on insanity, but I hadn't considered Cryo Ammo as a Husk pwner.

As a random question, I don't suppose you can one shot Harbinger with full barriers on insanity with the Widow? Because on veteran blasting his head off mid sentence was totally awesome.

@Curunen: Yeah, I'm going to be cloak sniping and sniping in general as much as possible. That's the main reason for Warp Ammo, because it helps conserve the limited ammo capacity of the Widow. Squad Disruptor might actually be more useful that the Heavy version. I did use Neural Shock on my engineer playthrough, but I don't really want that on the infiltrator. Also the Squad Disruptor will provide somewhat limited crowd control with it's ability to overheat weapons. I will propably be using Energy Drain on synthetic heavy missions, but mainly I'd like to rely on sheer weapon power. And no, I'm not going to play Soldier. I like the Cloak sniping aspect of the infiltrator better.

Modifié par Influ, 13 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[Kronner]

My Widow Infiltrator was (until I changed it to Shotgun Infiltrator later on):

3 Disruptor Ammo - just to unlock Cryo Ammo
10 Squad Cryo ammo - great CC power for squadmates and my Tempest
10 Assassination Cloak - damage over duration
6 Incinerate - fireball
1 AI Hacking - leftover point
10 Agent - Better than Assassin IMHO
10 Warp Ammo - to maximize Widow's damage

It was quite ok, but Widow Soldier is just much better Sniper IMHO.

Modifié par Kronner, 13 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Influ]

@Kronner: I can see how a soldier would be more effective as a sniper. I just like the idea of cloaked sniping better than Adrenaline Rush. Also soldier is by far my least favourite and I like to use the Revenant when I bother to play as one.

I'm propably going to pass Squad Cryo as CC. It was insanely useful as a Vanguard (well not really because you buttrape everyone anyway), but I don't like the idea of baddies falling behind cover before I can get a shot at them.

[termokanden]

I used almost the same build as Kronner (didn't use the spare points in the same way). But Agent, Assassination Cloak, Squad Cryo, Heavy Warp Ammo.

I played a mix of sniping and CQC. Not once did it happen that someone I was about to snipe would fall over due to Cryo Ammo. That's because I use the Widow to take out mooks before moving closer or to snipe particularly powerful (often heavy armor) enemies (like YMIR mechs so they go nuclear). When going crazy with SMGs there's really no problem if people freeze - it's just a big help then.

And husks are so much fun to kill with Squad Cryo. Even on insanity you can destroy their armor in what feels like half a second (didn't time it ) and move on. Squad Cryo finishes the job.

[Influ]

Still, as I'm going to heavily focus on sniping I think maximizing my damage per shot is the more effective way. When sniping the mooks are dead anyway if they can be frozen with Cryo. Of course in CQC it would help loads, but I'm going to avoid that quite a lot. And I can always respec if I feel like going bananas with mah Tempest.

[Praetor Knight]

Influ wrote...

Also not really relating to builds, but I'm torn whether or not to start a NG+. I'd have my belowed Anti-Materiel rifle from the start, but I do like the leveling up aspect of the game as well. Gameplay wise, how much does the enemy scaling impact the overall experience on NG+?

As a random question, I don't suppose you can one shot Harbinger with full barriers on insanity with the Widow? Because on veteran blasting his head off mid sentence was totally awesome.

Enemy scaling becomes noticable at level 20+, so without upgrades, you will be challenged early until you get your research going for an NG+ game.

The Widow and your focus on doing damage should help, but be prepared to be frustrated from time to time also.



With Heavy Warp Ammo I still don't think you can one shot Harbinger on Insanity, but you would still make short work of him with the Widow

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 14 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Squad disruptor is also a viable option for CCing enemies. More than once, the overheat function has saved my butt on hardcore; also, enemies do far more damage.

[Influ]

I think I'm going to do a NG+ run. There's two sniper damage upgrades to be bought from the beginning, one from Omega and one from Citadel. Third you can get from Grunt's recuitment mission. That will propably make the game less way annoying early on.

EffectedByTheMasses wrote...

Squad disruptor is also a viable option for CCing enemies. More than once, the overheat function has saved my butt on hardcore; also, enemies do far more damage.

Well it's not my first insanity playthrough altogether, only my last infiltrator run was on veteran. But, yeah the CC aspect will propably be way more useful than the extra 20% damage boost. Regular mooks you can still one shot with the Widow and it's better not waste it's ammo on shield stripping on stronger enemies anyway.

[Bozorgmehr]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Influ wrote...

Also not really relating to builds, but I'm torn whether or not to start a NG+. I'd have my belowed Anti-Materiel rifle from the start, but I do like the leveling up aspect of the game as well. Gameplay wise, how much does the enemy scaling impact the overall experience on NG+?

As a random question, I don't suppose you can one shot Harbinger with full barriers on insanity with the Widow? Because on veteran blasting his head off mid sentence was totally awesome.

Enemy scaling becomes noticable at level 20+, so without upgrades, you will be challenged early until you get your research going for an NG+ game.

The Widow and your focus on doing damage should help, but be prepared to be frustrated from time to time also.



With Heavy Warp Ammo I still don't think you can one shot Harbinger on Insanity, but you would still make short work of him with the Widow

There isn't that much difference between NG and NG+ for a Widow Infiltrator; early on you can one-shot enemies with the Mantis (NG) while you need the Widow on NG+. You can buy two SR upgrades immediately and get the third on Grunt's RM (should help a lot).

The one thing you're looking for is one-shots - when you can kill normal mooks with a single shot you're good (does anyone know what's needed to do that? How many upgrades? Is the Cloak damage bonus required? Do you need ammo power at all? (@ level 30)

All other enemies (elites and bosses) cannot be killed with a single shot. Harby requires 3 point blank Claymore headshots - 2 or 3 Widow shots are needed to kill Harbinger (you cannot one-shot Guardians and Assassins either).

Ammo power damage bonus is very small when you've got a couple of upgrades (which you'll have soon enough) so I recommend to test what's needed to one-shot and spent all the other skill points in utility (squad Cryo Ammo, Incinerate, AI Hacking and (non-ammo) bonus power).

[Influ]

I don't think Squad Cryo is that necessary if I'm going to use Squad Disruptor. Cryo would be better for CC purposes, but Disruptor would provide both CC and and a decent damage boost. Keeping in mind that it will help further when swapping for SMG against better shielded enemies. AI Hacking might be handy in Geth missions, but otherwise it's quite situational and limits the usage of Cloak. And that is used for damage boosting, flanking or moving around the battlefield in general and escaping sticky situations to name a few.

The planned buld as of now:

10 Squad Disruptor Ammo
1 Cryo ammo
10 Assassination Cloak
10 Incineration Blast
0 AI Hacking
10 Operative (Assassin)
10 Heavy Warp Ammo

Also to note one other thing that makes me reluctant to using AI Hack is that I plan to do a AI Hack/Dominate engineer build some time.

[termokanden]

Actually you can max your sniping abilities by having both Disruptor and Warp ammo and still have Squad Cryo. You have to give up Incinerate though. But I don't really see that as a problem, considering the damage boost you could get from using Cloak instead.

But yeah, that one is a viable build too. I just wanted to say that you're not giving up on doing max sniper damage if you get Squad Cryo

[Alamar2078]

Influ wrote...

So, I'm starting an infiltrator playthrough on insanity sometime soon and have some things about the build I'd like your opinions. First things first, the build.

10 Heavy Disruptor Ammo
0 Cryo ammo
10 Assassination Cloak
10 Area/Heavy Incinerate
1 AI Hacking
10 Operative (Assassin)
10 Warp Ammo

Overall the build seems pretty good to me.  Heavy Disruptor, Assn Cloak, Area Incinerate, 1 AI Hacking, 10 passive [assn] and 10 Warp Ammo sounds like a really good combination.

Widow + Carnifex + Locust seems like a pretty good combination to me.

[ahgchyhn]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
......
The one thing you're looking for is one-shots - when you can kill normal mooks with a single shot you're good (does anyone know what's needed to do that? How many upgrades? Is the Cloak damage bonus required? Do you need ammo power at all? (@ level 30)

All other enemies (elites and bosses) cannot be killed with a single shot. Harby requires 3 point blank Claymore headshots - 2 or 3 Widow shots are needed to kill Harbinger (you cannot one-shot Guardians and Assassins either).
.......

i did some testing to estimate the amount of protection and hit points of lv. 30 standard enemies.

(conditions: ng+, insanity, LotSB + kasumi dlc)

garrus heavy overload vs. blue suns trooper

with passive maxed it could penetrate the whole shield layer. damage should be:
200 dmg x 1.25 (passive) x 2 (shield multiplier) = 500 dmg

miranda's area overload vs: blue suns trooper

with 5 tech damage upgrades it couldn't penetrate the whole shield; however with 6 it did. damage should be:
160 dmg x 1.5 (tech upgrades) x 2 (shield multiplier) = 480 dmg
160 dmg x 1.6 (tech upgrades) x 2 (shield multiplier) = 512 dmg

samara's area reave vs. collector drone

with 6 biotic damage and duration upgrade a tiny bit of the barrier was left. damage should be:
40 dmg x 1.6 (upgrades) x 2 (barriere multiplier) = 128 dps
4 sec x 1.2 (upgrade) x 0.8 (insanity penalty) = 3.84 sec
128 dps x 3.84 sec  = 491.52 dmg

now i edited the coalesced.ini to change the penalty to 0.81. i got:
128 x 3.888 = 497,664 dmg
this amount penetrated the whole layer.

miranda's heavy warp vs blue suns trooper

she stripped the shield layer with overload and then unloaded 3 warps for a total of 600 dmg. with the length of the health bar left i guess the trooper has a total of roughly 645 hit points.

conclusion

with the collected data i guess a standard enemy has a protection layer of 495 and a hit point value of 645, adding together to a total amount of 1140. now we can use this value to calculate under whitch conditions we can oneshot such an enemy with the widow in a ng+.

------------------------------------------------------
formula used:

ammo part damage = assassin bonus x ammuntion multiplier x widow damage

weapon part damage = (assassin bonus + gear bonus + headshot bonus + upgrade level) x protection multiplier x widow damage

total damage = ammo part damage + weapon part damage


no ammo, regular enemy with armor
Kuwashii Visor,  Kestrel Torso Sheath, N7 Shoulder Guards, Off-Hand Ammo Pack, Kestrel Power Pack
assassin spec, 2 sniper upgrades

b= (1.15+0.08+0.6+0.2) x 1.5 x 368.3
total damage = ~1122

heavy disruptor ammo, regular enemy with barrier
Kuwashii Visor,  Kestrel Torso Sheath, N7 Shoulder Guards, Off-Hand Ammo Pack, Kestrel Power Pack
assassin spec, 2 sniper upgrades

a= 1.15 x 0.6 x 368.3 = ~255
b= (1.15+0.08+0.6+0.2) x 1 x 368.3 = ~748
total dmg = ~1002

squad disruptor ammo, regular enemy with shield
Kuwashii Visor,  Kestrel Torso Sheath, N7 Shoulder Guards, Off-Hand Ammo Pack, Kestrel Power Pack
assassin specc, 3 sniper upgrades, headshot upgrade

a= 1.15 x 0.4 x 368.3 = ~170
b= (1.15+0.08+1.1+0.3) x 1 x 368.3 = ~970
total dmg = ~1140
--------------------------------------

TL;DR

with the equipment kuwashii visor, kestrel torso, n7 shoulder guards, off-hand ammo pack, kestrel power pack and assassin specc you need the following conditions to oneshot standard enemies in a ng+ with the widow (with LotSB and kasuma dlc):

regular enemies with armor (vorcha etc.)

-from the beginning with just squad incendary ammo from jacob

regular enemies with shields/barriers (blue sons trooper etc.)

- with heavy or squad disruptor ammo / heavy warp ammo, 3 sniper dmg upgrades and the headshot dmg upgrade

you can buy 2 upgrades before starting any missions. the 3rd is located in the recruitment mission of grunt, but you can only research the headshot damage upgrade AFTER this mission.

of course with a different gear setup, miranda's passive etc. you can skip 1 upgrade, but then you have to rely on them.

sources

http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/55117441
http://masseffect.wi...ass_Effect_Wiki

Modifié par ahgchyhn, 15 mars 2011 - 12:25 .

[Bozorgmehr]

ahgchyhn wrote...

[...]

with the equipment kuwashii visor, kestrel torso, n7 shoulder guards, off-hand ammo pack, kestrel power pack and assassin specc you need the following conditions to oneshot standard enemies in a ng+ with the widow (with LotSB and kasuma dlc):

regular enemies with armor (vorcha etc.)

-from the beginning with just squad incendary ammo from jacob

regular enemies with shields (blue sons trooper etc.)

- with heavy or squad disruptor ammo, 3 sniper dmg upgrades and the headshot dmg upgrade
- with heavy warp ammo, 3 sniper dmg upgrades and the headshot dmg upgrade

you can buy 2 upgrades before starting any missions. the 3rd is located in the recruitment mission of grunt, but you can only research the headshot damage upgrade AFTER this mission.

of course with a different gear setup, miranda's passive etc. you can skip 1 upgrade, but then you have to rely on them.

sources

http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/55117441
http://masseffect.wi...ass_Effect_Wiki

Thanks for the info

So Disruptor Ammo rank 3 (6 points) is enough (plus 3 SR upgrades) to one-shot shielded enemies, but if this is also possible against shields using Warp Ammo - it should work without ammo power (Warp Ammo has no effect when used on shields). And that's my point; ammo powers don't increase damage significantly - especially after researching/buying a couple of upgrades (you can get the important ones almost straight away) - and when you don't need (maxed) ammo powers for one-shots it will leave skillpoints which can be invested in other, more effective and useful, powers.

Squad Cryo Ammo is great for squadies and on HP and SMG. Frozen enemies (who fall behind cover) are not worth a Widow shot IMHO (they are almost death anyway) so that shouldn't be an issue. Incinerate is also a versatile power though you don't need to max it to insta-strip armor (Vorcha, LOKI, Husks). AI Hacking is a great power; makes all Geth missions very easy and you'll meet plenty of mechs on other missions, only Bloodpack and Collector missions make it redundant. And there's room for a bonus power (Neural Shock, ED, Stasis, Reave, Dominate, Slam, FB etc).

Some extra goodies beside the Widow are most welcome

[Silentghost28]

Regarding the NG+ vs normal NG, I don't think it would make too much difference on an infiltrator. I've done NG+ runs on a vanguard and a soldier, and the soldier was pretty easy (like the infiltrator with cloak, I could kind of just spam AR). But on the vanguard, I was pretty much sitting back and spamming reave until after Horizon, which was not much fun at all. I was expecting to charge around and destroy everything like on veteran, but I couldn't really play like that until about halfway through the game.
But if you're going to focus on sniping, NG+ shouldn't be too bad, especially since you'll have the widow from the start.

[Influ]

@ahgchyhn: Wow, that is extremely enlightening. Thanks.

@Bozorgmehr: You have a point and I now do think maxed out Disruptor might be unnecessary. Then again, I don't know if I want to drop Incineration Blasts 3m AOE for Squad Cryo. Ammo powers might not make much difference against regular enemies, but against tougher enemies they do make a dent. I don't really want to drop Warp Ammo because it does help with YMIRs, Scions, Harby and Krogan to name a few.

[termokanden]

I just don't think Incinerate fit into my playstyle as an infiltrator. I use it on my engineer, I use it if my squadmates have it, but with my infiltrator I prefer to simply shoot people and use cloak a lot.

But I doubt it's a good idea to drop Heavy Warp Ammo. It's great for sniping collectors and anything with armor of course.

[ahgchyhn]

@Bozorgmehr:

sry, the lines about warp ammo and shields were mistakes, post edited for clarity.

theoretically you can use only lv.1 disruptor ammo after the derelict reaper mission if you got the other two remaining upgrades from garrus loyality mission and LotSB investment before (or earlier with 5 upgrade levels and lv.2 disruptor ammo if you don't want to skip cyro ammo). however only if you intend to use the ammo for standard mook oneshots.

Modifié par ahgchyhn, 15 mars 2011 - 01:26 .

[Simbacca]

termokanden wrote...

I just don't think Incinerate fit into my playstyle as an infiltrator...

Fits in with mine, on both my Shotgun and Widow Infiltrators.  Hell it fits in even more with my Widow Infiltrator.

Assassination Cloak is not like Heavy Charge and Adrenaline Rush; it's not a skill that's always right to use over and over again in a row because of the halting of regeneration.  Due to this, it's good to utilize other powers in a mix with Cloak.  For my Shotgun Infiltrator that other power was primarily Neural Shock, for my Widow Infiltrator (who's BP is Warp Ammo) it's Incineration Blast.  Great at stripping a group of Husks' Armor, good at fire dancing a few enemies, surprisingly decent against non-armor defense types, and great at finishing off organics at half health or less.

It fits my playstyle as an Infiltrator because even with the Widow I still often make use of Cloaked Shuriken strikes close range, and having health/shields regen while I sling a fireball is helpful.  YMMV.  End result, playstyle preference it seems.


{edit} regarding Ammo powers on the Widow Infiltrator: usually when people argue against them, it is because you can still one-shot most mooks without Ammo powers, with just Assassination Cloak and upgrades alone.  That's all well and good, but that's not why I like having both Disruptor and Warp Ammos at my disposable.  The Ammo powers help make the most of all those shots you take outside of A.Cloak.  Sometimes the SMG is right to use with this refresh of Cloak or sometimes you have to use one of your other abilities.  Hell even if you only ever use Cloak over and over again, it still has a base cooldown of 6 seconds.  Any of you only get one Widow shot off every 6 seconds?  That's too slow a playstyle for me, I usually get up to 2-3 more headshots off between each power refresh.

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 mars 2011 - 04:22 .

[Influ]

Yep, Incineration Blast is there because you can't always depend on cloak. Also helpful when running low on Widow ammo. And against Husks obviously.

[jasonsantanna]

I'm do my infiltrator run on insanity and gave my squad cyro ammo works great against husk and especially on derelict reaper, and other enemies , my squad freezes , I shatter them with a IB , widow shoot or melee , as far as disruptor ammo I usually only go to lv 3 with it , its enough to get all the benefits from it that counts , I've never went to lv 4 with it is it worth seeing synthetics exploded , if someone can verify that for me . As far as NG+ , I always start with out the upgrades , just preference , and challenge I guess.