252 réponses à ce sujet

[KenKenpachi]

You know I think some of you don't understand the word "enslaved" or slavery, I don't see mages fetching water on command, or plowing my cotton field. Or being kept in sub stanard housing, or being bought and sold in a market. Imprisoned is closer.

[RosaAquafire]

Bethany plays a very important plot role here, basically. She was such a good, gentle, strong person that even FENRIS has to admit that she was strong enough to handle being a mage.

[DieHigh2012]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Bethany plays a very important plot role here, basically. She was such a good, gentle, strong person that even FENRIS has to admit that she was strong enough to handle being a mage.

Yes, but the fact that see is the only "good" mage doesn't speak well for mages as a group

[Everwarden]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes, but the fact that see is the only "good" mage doesn't speak well for mages as a group

Mages are people. People sometimes commit crimes, that doesn't mean that everyone should be considered automatically guilty of theft and murder just because there are thieves and murderers out there. Mages are the same, just with more power. 

[cactusberry]

greatcrusader44 wrote...

Did I miss something, I sided with the mages and Orsino becomes a Harvester, which killed only a small group of Templars, then we had to kill him?!? Why did he attack us?

He couldn't control himself.
---
I'm sure there are some mages that were in the Gallows not blood mages, we just didn't see them running away.

KenKenpachi wrote...

You know I think some of you don't understand the word "enslaved" or slavery, I don't see mages fetching water on command, or plowing my cotton field. Or being kept in sub stanard housing, or being bought and sold in a market. Imprisoned is closer.

There were slavers seeking mages, remember the quest where you have to rescue that boy? (I forgot his name...) Slavers had him.

Modifié par TheDarkRats, 13 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[VettoRyouzou]

Sadly as much as people enjoy the "grey" of this game I think people don't understand there isn't any "grey" both sides are dark this is basically Warhammer "grey" nether side are right or wrong in DA:2 To the point we don't even get to see templar and mage who see eye to eye like we did in DA:O.

It sad the fact you have to pick between the two specially when you understand both side and know the balances needed to fix the problem =/.

[Everwarden]

KenKenpachi wrote...

You know I think some of you don't understand the word "enslaved" or slavery, I don't see mages fetching water on command, or plowing my cotton field. Or being kept in sub stanard housing, or being bought and sold in a market. Imprisoned is closer.

I don't think -you- understand slavery. All slavery means is that you're the property of someone else or an organization (in this case, the Chantry). Slavery is not limited to tilling bean fields in 100 degree heat while being whipped; historically there have been many slaves who live comfortable (relative to the time) lives, as is the case with the mages in Dragon Age.

[RosaAquafire]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Bethany plays a very important plot role here, basically. She was such a good, gentle, strong person that even FENRIS has to admit that she was strong enough to handle being a mage.

Yes, but the fact that see is the only "good" mage doesn't speak well for mages as a group

It's not supposed to speak well for mages as a group. Look at Tevinter. Freed mages are dangerous. People who have the capability for power will 9 times of 10 take it. That's what DA2 is actually trying to say. The 10-15% who are completely blameless and will stick by their morals to the end are not insigificant. Weighing their rights against the danger of the rest is the moral dilemna.

[LobselVith8]

There are free mages in the nation of Rivain, Haven, and among the Chasind tribes. I don't see why some people think free mages mean a magocracy. The Dales was nothing like Teviter, after all.

[DieHigh2012]

Everwarden wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes, but the fact that see is the only "good" mage doesn't speak well for mages as a group

Mages are people. People sometimes commit crimes, that doesn't mean that everyone should be considered automatically guilty of theft and murder just because there are thieves and murderers out there. Mages are the same, just with more power. 

Mages are a walking nuclear arsonal. Screw the whole, "you can't blame them all for the actions of a few" argument. A psyco-path with a kife can't do what Anders does with such minimal effort.

Even the leader of the "good" mages (the first enchanter) validates all of the reasons why mages have to be watched.

[LobselVith8]

KenKenpachi, you realize slavery is the very word used in the game to reference the Chantry controlled Circles? It's the argument I used to get Fenris to join me. It's how Anders references the Circle. I don't see what's invalid about referencing it as slavery when the game denotes it as such.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There are free mages in the nation of Rivain, Haven, and among the Chasind tribes. I don't see why some people think free mages mean a magocracy. The Dales was nothing like Teviter, after all.

You know nothing about any of those civilivations, so it unreasonable to attempt to use thoes as examples of free mages.

The only society that we know anything about with free mages is Teventer. Mage ruled country with slavery blood magic and demon summoning being common everyday things.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KenKenpachi, you realize slavery is the very word used in the game to reference the Chantry controlled Circles? It's the argument I used to get Fenris to join me. It's how Anders references the Circle. I don't see what's invalid about referencing it as slavery when the game denotes it as such.

No, a character states that the chantry is enslaving mages. Making it the characters opinion, not lore fact.

[DieHigh2012]

RosaAquafire wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Bethany plays a very important plot role here, basically. She was such a good, gentle, strong person that even FENRIS has to admit that she was strong enough to handle being a mage.

Yes, but the fact that see is the only "good" mage doesn't speak well for mages as a group

It's not supposed to speak well for mages as a group. Look at Tevinter. Freed mages are dangerous. People who have the capability for power will 9 times of 10 take it. That's what DA2 is actually trying to say. The 10-15% who are completely blameless and will stick by their morals to the end are not insigificant. Weighing their rights against the danger of the rest is the moral dilemna.

That is actually my view, I wasen't disagreeing.

[LobselVith8]

I know none of those societies are a magocracy, Die. That's all I need to know to see that free mages don't equal the Tevinter Imperium.

[KenKenpachi]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KenKenpachi, you realize slavery is the very word used in the game to reference the Chantry controlled Circles? It's the argument I used to get Fenris to join me. It's how Anders references the Circle. I don't see what's invalid about referencing it as slavery when the game denotes it as such.

No, a character states that the chantry is enslaving mages. Making it the characters opinion, not lore fact.

Thank you for putting it more simply than I would have.

They arn't slaves, prisoners maybe but not slaves. Watch next some of you will be saying well Prisoners are slaves too. Yeah lets release everyone everywhere. If I had an Anti Tank Gun, or an endless supply of nukes I built from my mind, would I be allowed free? **** no. I'ld be setting in a jail, with some guy ready to kill me . As I said Human Rights of this sort are a luxury, of a pamperd populance with no obvious dangers,  Or rather they ignore them.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 13 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[LobselVith8]

Multiple people refer to it as slavery, Die, so it's not merely the opinion of one person. I don't condone slavery, which is why I sided with the mages.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I know none of those societies are a magocracy, Die. That's all I need to know to see that free mages don't equal the Tevinter Imperium.

And how do you know that?

The dalish clans (the lefovers from the dalish) are lead by their mages......

I would really like to see you try and back that up with actual facts.

[Sonris89]

If we had people walking around that could shoot fireballs with will of mind or enslave peoples minds with blood magic or summon demons into themselves I'm sure the real world would qurantine them as well or tranquil them. Its a matter of abstract values of the few versus the well being of the whole.

Condisering one mage can kill many other people before it is taken down, I defiently see the point of the chantry and circle.

[Everwarden]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

No, a character states that the chantry is enslaving mages. Making it the characters opinion, not lore fact.

No. We don't need the opinion of the characters on the subject, we're objective observers and can see ourselves that the mages are slaves. That isn't opinion, that's just the state of reality. Mages are forced to serve* the Chantry and if they refuse they are recaptured or killed. That is the very definition of slavery. 

Saying that the only example of a society with free mages is Tevinter is a bit of a red herring, because we don't really know much about the Tevinter other than that mages rule over them and they keep slaves. Keeping slaves isn't something unique to the Tevinter, it's just that a different group is in power and a different group is enslaved. 

*And yes, they are forced to serve the chantry, they aren't just guarded. In times of war the chantry sends mages into battle, and all mage goods and services come from the circle and profit the chantry. 

[LobselVith8]

The Chasind tribes aren't lead by mages. Kolgrim leads the people of Haven, and he isn't a mage. The seers of Rivain are referenced as wise women who the people refuse to be parted from. I don't see why people claim free mages equal Tevinter when this clearly isn't the case.

[Tleining]

We don't kow how many Mages were Blood Mages. Emile for one apparently wasn't one. And once the First Enchanter did his spell, all the other mages in the Room ran away. So for all we know, at least some innocents would have survived.

[DieHigh2012]

Everwarden wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

No, a character states that the chantry is enslaving mages. Making it the characters opinion, not lore fact.

No. We don't need the opinion of the characters on the subject, we're objective observers and can see ourselves that the mages are slaves. That isn't opinion, that's just the state of reality. Mages are forced to serve* the Chantry and if they refuse they are recaptured or killed. That is the very definition of slavery. 

Saying that the only example of a society with free mages is Tevinter is a bit of a red herring, because we don't really know much about the Tevinter other than that mages rule over them and they keep slaves. Keeping slaves isn't something unique to the Tevinter, it's just that a different group is in power and a different group is enslaved. 

*And yes, they are forced to serve the chantry, they aren't just guarded. In times of war the chantry sends mages into battle, and all mage goods and services come from the circle and profit the chantry. 

No, prisoners are not slaves. Talk to Fenris more or run around with him your group, then be an obective observer. I am not saying teventer is the only example, however I am say they are the only example that we know anything about.

That is your opinion of the observations you made, mine are different than yours making both an opinion. While the mages are mistreated in some chantrys and circles, that is not a universal truth. While in Teventer mages are the absolute power, unquestioned by anyone other than another mage.

The chantry is powerful, but t not all powerful. My proof of this is Alister's refusal to return the mages that ran to Ferelden. If he is able to get away with disobediance, the Chantry is not as power ful as the mage Magesters in the Imperium.

[LobselVith8]

It's interesting you bring up Fenris. The term slavery can be used by Hawke to convince Fenris to side with you against the Templars, so he doesn't seem to dispute it.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chasind tribes aren't lead by mages. Kolgrim leads the people of Haven, and he isn't a mage. The seers of Rivain are referenced as wise women who the people refuse to be parted from. I don't see why people claim free mages equal Tevinter when this clearly isn't the case.

Haven is a place where male mages are the only ones that can be the priests of Androste, with all the human sacrifice in that place I'm not shure that it helps your arument.

Chasind Tribes you know nothing about.

Rivain you know noting about.