252 réponses à ce sujet

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's interesting you bring up Fenris. The term slavery can be used by Hawke to convince Fenris to side with you against the Templars, so he doesn't seem to dispute it.

Key words "he doesn't seem to dispute it"

[LobselVith8]

You have no proof only mages can become priests. We know Eirik was a priest of the Haven Chantry, but it's never explicitly said only mages can become Fathers. We also know the Chasind and the people of Rivain aren't lead by mages, so free mages don't equal a magocracy by the history of Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

He left the side of Meredith to join me when I called out the Chantry as slavery, Die. It's evidently a strong enough argument for him to join me when he considers it suicidal to go up against the Templar army,

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You have no proof only mages can become priests. We know Eirik was a priest of the Haven Chantry, but it's never explicitly said only mages can become Fathers. We also know the Chasind and the people of Rivain aren't lead by mages, so free mages don't equal a magocracy by the history of Thedas.

You do not know that the Chasind or the Rivain people are not lead by mages, you know nothing about them. Meaning it is your imagination playing tricks on you. There is NO evidince you can show to prove your wild asumptions.

You are right, but I do see that the mages In Haven are unrestricted, and practioners of human sacrifice. The free the mages argument is not backed up by that example.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 13 mars 2011 - 05:00 .

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He left the side of Meredith to join me when I called out the Chantry as slavery, Die. It's evidently a strong enough argument for him to join me when he considers it suicidal to go up against the Templar army,

It is a characters actions and thoughts, not lore.

And I disagree with you on why he changed sides. See how your truth and fact only turns out to equal opinion and conjecture?

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 13 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[zombitologist]

I don't understand it. I mean why woud they bother with blood magic when the regular spells are equally powerful and result in less abominations/demons. Maybe the Kirkwall Circle mages just really suck at being mages so that's why they all use blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

I don't see why we should claim that free mages = the Tevinter Imperium when we know it isn't the case. We know that even the Dales as a nation where some mages were in leadership positions (based on what Lanaya tells us in DA:O) but they weren't like the Tevinter Imperium; they didn't build an empire on blood magic or slavery.

Also, in general, I think it's flawed to say free mages mean blood mages or abominations when we encounter mages who are neither.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Die, if you have proof they are a magocracy, then feel free to provide the information. I read no codex that listed the Chasind tribes under mage leadership, and the Rivain witches are referenced as free mages, not the ruling order. If you have evidence that states otherwise, please provide it.

Also, people are referring to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, so I see no reason why the term shouldn't be used in discussion.

[Yakko77]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

Seems like it, though a blood mage doesn't mean they're evil. The Grey Wardens use blood magic and they're not evil, The Warden used blood magic and he/she wasn't evil, Hawke can use blood magic and he/she isn't evil (unless you make them evil).

Merrill too..... even if you did end up wiping out her clan on Sundermount.  (I didn't seethat coming).

Still, given the abuse of powers inflicted on the mages by the Templars.... I have a hard time blaming them.  Heck, I didn't even kill Anders for unleashing the Death Star beam on the Chantry.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, if you have proof they are a magocracy, then feel free to provide the information. I read no codex that listed the Chasind tribes under mage leadership, and the Rivain witches are referenced as free mages, not the ruling order. If you have evidence that states otherwise, please provide it.

Also,
people are referring to ten Chantry controlled Circles

I have no proof, you are the one claiming to have proof and using them as examples.....

Yes, and not every circle is Kirkwall, Wyine (old mage from Origens) seems to actually like the one in Ferelden.

[SnakeSNMF]

I was getting so pissed about it.
It seems for everything wrong about DA2, they compensate for it.
Plot hole?
Blood mage!
Not enough content and need more stuff for a quest?
Blood mage!
Need experience?
Blood mage!
Important everyone?
Blood mage!

ugh.

[Doc Faust]

Orsino turns into the Harvester to force the player to fight the leaders of both major factions, regardless of chosen political alignment. Gameplay calculus, nothing more; he does it for another boss battle. Also to re-enforce the notion that Hawke's "choice" at the end amounts to very little-- no matter what he does, the world is plunged into war. All Hawke gets to choose is which side of that war suffers the most casualties in its first battle.

Second: we see lots of blood mages in Kirkwall because blood mages are notable. There are plenty of mages who don't touch the stuff and spend their time quietly reading in their cell in the Gallows. We do not see them, because they are boring. And because they wouldn't attack you, meaning your ability to interact with them in through the lens of the game would be severely limited.

Further, several blood mages in-game are largely innocuous. Indeed, at least one directly aids the player if he is a mage: Carver has been knocked out with blood magic. Blood magic is all that would wake him. A friendly, not-totally-bat**** mage apologizes for the necessity and nicks his finger to wake him. Then, he runs off. The end.

People forget this because the other blood mage in that group of magi does happen to be totally bat**** and attacks you for "murdering" her lover. She is notable. The helpful apostate is not.

Another anecdote: recall Jowan. He uses blood magic, and yes, he commits crimes. None of those crimes have anything to do with his blood magic: he commits them because he's not very clever. Indeed, the only times we ever actually see him using blood magic at all are when he shoots some at the Templars (killing no one, I would point out) or when he participates in a ritual to save a child/ large town. He remains awkward, shy, earnest and at least marginally decent up until being executed/ made tranquil/ whatever it is that happens to him at the end.

The game seems to presents blood magic as inherently corrupting and evil because the game has to justify our killing most of the people we interact with. If the blood mages we met didn't attack us, that's one less fight to make up the game. So they skip over the sane, reasonable Blood Magi in favor of the crazy ones with summoned demon-armies.

This is the same reason that every pissant two-bit gang in Kirkwall still attacks you even after you've become the Champion and have demonstrated combat abilities enough to defeat the Arishok-- an entity capable of dual weilding two-handed swords-- in single combat. There are smart criminals in Kirkwall. You just never see any.

SwimDevil wrote...

I don't understand it. I mean why woud they bother with blood magic when the regular spells are equally powerful and result in less abominations/demons. Maybe the Kirkwall Circle mages just really suck at being mages so that's why they all use blood magic.

This is mildly annoying yes, though it is important to note that the most powerful uses of Blood magic-- demon summoning, necromancy, and long-term, undetectable enthrallment-- are not abilities the player Blood Mage can get access to. Most of the Blood Magi encountered do use these powers. Especially the demon summoning. Oh god, the Shades. Always with the Shades.

Modifié par Doc Faust, 13 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[maxbarton]

Sonris89 wrote...

Not every mage is a blood mage.

Some are abominations and necromancers too.

I agree with this.  Come on, they're a diverse people group. 

[Doc Faust]

Mispost

Modifié par Doc Faust, 13 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[DieHigh2012]

Yes Doc that one blood mage wasn't so bad, other than the fact he was taking orders from the bat**** one and was part of the whole kidnap the sibling thing.

I charge that if you hadn't killed the bat**** loved crazed one he would have continued to do her dirty work. Make him a bad guy even if that is not his intention.

[Doc Faust]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes Doc that one blood mage wasn't so bad, other than the fact he was taking orders from the bat**** one and was part of the whole kidnap the sibling thing.

I charge that if you hadn't killed the bat**** loved crazed one he would have continued to do her dirty work. Make him a bad guy even if that is not his intention.

There is literally so much more to my post than that.

[Tleining]

@ Doc Faust
uh, Orsino turns into the harvester because he doesn't want to run anymore. He wants to fight back and uses the most powerful spell he knows, which turns him into a mindless Monster attacking everything around him.
The World is plunged into a war because Anders destroyed the Chantry. A Mage destroyed the Chantry and killed everyone inside. For the Mages, that and the injustices the Mages in Kirkwall suffered is the sign to rise up. Hawkes Actions can't change that.

Also: Both Hawke and Merril can use Blood Magic. I wouldn't call either evil and/or corrupt

[MortalEngines]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You have no proof only mages can become priests. We know Eirik was a priest of the Haven Chantry, but it's never explicitly said only mages can become Fathers. We also know the Chasind and the people of Rivain aren't lead by mages, so free mages don't equal a magocracy by the history of Thedas.

I just popped in to say that Tevinter Imperium is the exception to this. The leader of their chantry, the Black Divine, is a mage and they are ruled by a Magocracy. I just wanted to pipe in a say that 

Tleining wrote...

@ Doc Faust
uh, Orsino turns into the harvester because he doesn't want to run anymore. He wants to fight back and uses the most powerful spell he knows, which turns him into a mindless Monster attacking everything around him. 
The World is plunged into a war because Anders destroyed the Chantry. A Mage destroyed the Chantry and killed everyone inside. For the Mages, that and the injustices the Mages in Kirkwall suffered is the sign to rise up. Hawkes Actions can't change that.

Also: Both Hawke and Merril can use Blood Magic. I wouldn't call either evil and/or corrupt

Orsino turns into the harvester because he doesn't believe that they can win the fight and that Meredith will kill them all, so he would rather die fighting. Nothing to do with running, he's given up hope, he's not standing his ground but rather he's given in to temptation and lost hope completely that they can win without blood magic and destorying themselves.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 13 mars 2011 - 05:35 .

[DieHigh2012]

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes Doc that one blood mage wasn't so bad, other than the fact he was taking orders from the bat**** one and was part of the whole kidnap the sibling thing.

I charge that if you hadn't killed the bat**** loved crazed one he would have continued to do her dirty work. Make him a bad guy even if that is not his intention.

There is literally so much more to my post than that.

Yes, I'm dbating lore and the in-game world. Not the gameplay mechanics......

The blood mages are evil, corrupted. I dosen't matter if they used that to justify killing so many mages while making the game. Just that it is how the game plays.

The players are killing evil mages in the world of Thedas, reguardless of why the Devs did this they are evil in game.

[Doc Faust]

Tleining wrote...

@ Doc Faust
uh, Orsino turns into the harvester because he doesn't want to run anymore. He wants to fight back and uses the most powerful spell he knows, which turns him into a mindless Monster attacking everything around him.
The World is plunged into a war because Anders destroyed the Chantry. A Mage destroyed the Chantry and killed everyone inside. For the Mages, that and the injustices the Mages in Kirkwall suffered is the sign to rise up. Hawkes Actions can't change that.

Also: Both Hawke and Merril can use Blood Magic. I wouldn't call either evil and/or corrupt

I was speaking Doyalistically there. From a metafictional standpoint, Orsino harvesters himself to underscore the idea that Hawke is adrift in larger forces. His choice changes little about the ending, ultimately.

As to your concluding point: Yes. That was part of my point. Blood Magic is magic. Very, very dangerous, powerful, tempting magic, but still just magic. It is probobly a bad idea to ever use it, but its a tool. Like the Atom Bomb. Or Mustard Gas.

[Doc Faust]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes Doc that one blood mage wasn't so bad, other than the fact he was taking orders from the bat**** one and was part of the whole kidnap the sibling thing.

I charge that if you hadn't killed the bat**** loved crazed one he would have continued to do her dirty work. Make him a bad guy even if that is not his intention.

There is literally so much more to my post than that.

Yes, I'm dbating lore and the in-game world. Not the gameplay mechanics......

The blood mages are evil, corrupted. I dosen't matter if they used that to justify killing so many mages while making the game. Just that it is how the game plays.

The players are killing evil mages in the world of Thedas, reguardless of why the Devs did this they are evil in game.

My point was that the game is going to make the evil ones seem more prominent than they might actually be in-universe. You notice the evil blood magi because those are the ones you interact with more.

[DieHigh2012]

Tleining wrote...

@ Doc Faust
uh, Orsino turns into the harvester because he doesn't want to run anymore. He wants to fight back and uses the most powerful spell he knows, which turns him into a mindless Monster attacking everything around him.
The World is plunged into a war because Anders destroyed the Chantry. A Mage destroyed the Chantry and killed everyone inside. For the Mages, that and the injustices the Mages in Kirkwall suffered is the sign to rise up. Hawkes Actions can't change that.

Also: Both Hawke and Merril can use Blood Magic. I wouldn't call either evil and/or corrupt

You are in control of that character........that is not a true argument.

The first enchanter made the decision to validate all of the reasons why mages have to be watched. There is no justification for the leader of the "good" mages to do such a thing.

[LobselVith8]

Moral you missed my point. Free mages don't automatically mean they will end up creating another Tevinter Imperium, a magocracy of slavery and blood magic. The Dales had mages in leadership positions, but it didn't built itself on slaves or blood magic.

[DieHigh2012]

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes Doc that one blood mage wasn't so bad, other than the fact he was taking orders from the bat**** one and was part of the whole kidnap the sibling thing.

I charge that if you hadn't killed the bat**** loved crazed one he would have continued to do her dirty work. Make him a bad guy even if that is not his intention.

There is literally so much more to my post than that.

Yes, I'm dbating lore and the in-game world. Not the gameplay mechanics......

The blood mages are evil, corrupted. I dosen't matter if they used that to justify killing so many mages while making the game. Just that it is how the game plays.

The players are killing evil mages in the world of Thedas, reguardless of why the Devs did this they are evil in game.

My point was that the game is going to make the evil ones seem more prominent than they might actually be in-universe. You notice the evil blood magi because those are the ones you interact with more.

The leader of the "good" mages so easly turning into an evil d*ck is proof that it is that previlat.

[Mistress9Nine]

My Hawke felt like saying "I've had it with these mother****ing bloodmages in this mother****ing game." throughout the playthrough but he never got around to do it.

What was irritating is that whenever my mage Hawke wanted to say something against the mages he sounded very hypocritical. He always said apostates this and mages that, een though he was one himself. There was no way to take a stand only against the misuse of magic. It's was either fully with or against. That really sucked IMO.