252 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Die, the actions of one person don't validate an argument against all people. We know there are Grey Wardens who are blood mages, and I don't consider saving the world from darkspawn evil by any measure.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Moral you missed my point. Free mages don't automatically mean they will end up creating another Tevinter Imperium, a magocracy of slavery and blood magic. The Dales had mages in leadership positions, but it didn't built itself on slaves or blood magic.

The dalish have no home or land. They don't have the time or the reasorses to focus on anything but survival. They alos expel anyone that dables in blood magic or conversing with demons, something the human mages obviously failed horribly at.

[Doc Faust]

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

[Carmen_Willow]

LifeBlood wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

This struck me as a bad writing decision. It really made sympathizing with the mages exceptionally difficult to rationalize. And then when Orsino does his thing I was like, "What!? In the same sentence, you're implying you've never been a blood mage yet you're suddenly pulling out of nowhere the baddest of the bad powers." Except for the Orlesian moron, almost every mage you come across is a blood mage and, not just a blood mage, but an evil blood mage. Maybe they didn't think they were clear enough in DAO that blood mage requires a pact with a demon or something so they wanted to fix it, but they went way overboard here.

On a related note, while I haven't dug completely into all the codex entries I've picked up, there is something of an explanation for why Kirkwall has such a huge number of blood mages (pay particular attention to the Enigma of Kirkwall entries). But this really should have been its own line of secondary (or even main) quests. This was a huge opportunity wasted. And even an increased number of them should not be an excuse to basically make every mage of significance a blood mage.

I just thought it was a bit silly to make Orsino a blood mage. Not only that, but he turned himself into some sort of huge ****** blob demon-undead thing aswell.

Agreed.  You kind of lose your moral high ground when you use the infamous bio weapon you promised everyone you would never touch.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, the actions of one person don't validate an argument against all people. We know there are Grey Wardens who are blood mages, and I don't consider saving the world from darkspawn evil by any measure.

It is not one person, it is just about every mage in this game........

And yes I do belive that the leader of these so called "good" mages needs to be held at a higher standered. If he can turn evil so easly........

[Doc Faust]

Mistress9Nine wrote...

My Hawke felt like saying "I've had it with these mother****ing bloodmages in this mother****ing game." throughout the playthrough but he never got around to do it.

What was irritating is that whenever my mage Hawke wanted to say something against the mages he sounded very hypocritical. He always said apostates this and mages that, een though he was one himself. There was no way to take a stand only against the misuse of magic. It's was either fully with or against. That really sucked IMO.

There's actually a snarky option later in the game where Hawke can basically say "just once, I wish I met a mage who wasn't a nutjob."

Mirrored my thoughts at that exact moment perfectly.

[LobselVith8]

I meant the nation of the Dales, Die, not the Dalish clans. They had an entire nation where there were mages, and it wasn't Tevinter. We know from Witch Hunt that Arlathan had mages, and there is no indication they were anything like Tevinter.

[LobselVith8]

You can hold him to a higher standard, but why hold everyone else responsible for his actions? He's one man who basically commits suicide with a ritual he considered evil to take out as many templars as she could before he perished. It was wrong, but it's not something I would lay at the feet of all mages.

[Doc Faust]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, the actions of one person don't validate an argument against all people. We know there are Grey Wardens who are blood mages, and I don't consider saving the world from darkspawn evil by any measure.

It is not one person, it is just about every mage in this game........

And yes I do belive that the leader of these so called "good" mages needs to be held at a higher standered. If he can turn evil so easly........

In what way is Orsino's fall "easy?" He was backed into a corner in the middle of a violent battlefield with around twelve living alies and the absolute surity that he and everyone he knew and loved was about to die, or already had.

Despair and desperation are far more powerful motivators than ambition, lust for power and pride put together.

... On an unrelated note, was anyone else pissed you couldn't loot his awesome dragon-staff? Even people who think mages are inherently evil and need to die have to admit its an pretty awesome walking stick.

[packardbell]

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

Thing is that didn't stop someone like Uldred.. yeah he was an abomination when he decided to start his coup, but he still made a pact with the demon.

[Eventide]

Yeah, the writing is atrocious. I think that's the worst problem, the bad writers they've hired. I thought Dragon Age was all about multiple options and there not being a "good" or "bad" choice, but when the options are basically "kill all mages" or "kill all templars" that defeats the purpose entirely. And I sided with the mages, but of course I had to kill blood mages along with templars at the same time, so what's the point? Just becomes a button mashing fest and waiting for the next dialogue options.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I meant the nation of the Dales, Die, not the Dalish clans. They had an entire nation where there were mages, and it wasn't Tevinter. We know from Witch Hunt that Arlathan had mages, and there is no indication they were anything like Tevinter.

Stop saying this, you have no idea what those cultures are like. They could have been bad or good, but it doesn't matter hear because we don't know a dang thing about em.

They could have been utopias for mages, or hell for any non-mage. The fact is we do not know.

[PantheraOnca]

to the people saying "well look at the imperium, that's what happens when you let mages free!": that's not a valid argument. tevinter has ALWAYS been about the blood magic. they have never not used it. since the only mageocracy we know of is tevinter, we can't comment on what a not-blood-magic mageocracy would be like.

"but every mage backed into a corner uses blood magic" in kirkwall. after years of lockdown. and having absolutely no other legitimate options available to them (or that they perceive as available to them).

the elves were a society of mages and they knew of blood magic. they didnt go enslaving humans (or each other) as soon as they found them and sacrifing them for laughs (as far as we know).

[Doc Faust]

Mispost. Again -.-

Modifié par Doc Faust, 13 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[DieHigh2012]

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, the actions of one person don't validate an argument against all people. We know there are Grey Wardens who are blood mages, and I don't consider saving the world from darkspawn evil by any measure.

It is not one person, it is just about every mage in this game........

And yes I do belive that the leader of these so called "good" mages needs to be held at a higher standered. If he can turn evil so easly........

In what way is Orsino's fall "easy?" He was backed into a corner in the middle of a violent battlefield with around twelve living alies and the absolute surity that he and everyone he knew and loved was about to die, or already had.

Despair and desperation are far more powerful motivators than ambition, lust for power and pride put together.

... On an unrelated note, was anyone else pissed you couldn't loot his awesome dragon-staff? Even people who think mages are inherently evil and need to die have to admit its an pretty awesome walking stick.

Thing is I supported the mages just for my sister, and he doesn't turn until after I kill all the dang templars. He looks around and says "oh we are winning, till to vailidate all the templars fear of mages".

I realize everyones experince with this sceen is not the same, but the fact that he still turns, with your support, or not is quite telling in my eyes.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 13 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[Doc Faust]

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

Thing is that didn't stop someone like Uldred.. yeah he was an abomination when he decided to start his coup, but he still made a pact with the demon.

Meredith's way did not stop... um... (lots of names) from making a pact with a demon(s)

What's your point?

[Doc Faust]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, the actions of one person don't validate an argument against all people. We know there are Grey Wardens who are blood mages, and I don't consider saving the world from darkspawn evil by any measure.

It is not one person, it is just about every mage in this game........

And yes I do belive that the leader of these so called "good" mages needs to be held at a higher standered. If he can turn evil so easly........

In what way is Orsino's fall "easy?" He was backed into a corner in the middle of a violent battlefield with around twelve living alies and the absolute surity that he and everyone he knew and loved was about to die, or already had.

Despair and desperation are far more powerful motivators than ambition, lust for power and pride put together.

... On an unrelated note, was anyone else pissed you couldn't loot his awesome dragon-staff? Even people who think mages are inherently evil and need to die have to admit its an pretty awesome walking stick.

Thing is I supported the mages just for my sister, and he doesn't turn until after I kill all the dang templars. He looks around and says "oh we are winning, till to vailidate all the templars fear of mages".

I realize everyones experince with this sceen is not the same, but the fact that he still turns, with your support, or not is quite telling in my eyes.

You kill a tiny fraction of the total number of templars in the city. The Templars are legion. The mages are few. If it weren't for Meredith's insanity causing the Templars to re-assess their conviction to kill you, there is literally *no way you could possibly have survived* going with a "support the mages" playthrough. You could kill five hundred of the armored bastards and you wouldn't make a dent in their overall numbers.

>.> <.<

... No comment on the awesome dragon-staff?

Modifié par Doc Faust, 13 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[packardbell]

Doc Faust wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

Thing is that didn't stop someone like Uldred.. yeah he was an abomination when he decided to start his coup, but he still made a pact with the demon.

Meredith's way did not stop... um... (lots of names) from making a pact with a demon(s)

What's your point?

Well my point is you said having a better way of life, giving more living space.. ect would deter mages rebelling from the Chantry when this is obviously not the case.

[DieHigh2012]

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, the actions of one person don't validate an argument against all people. We know there are Grey Wardens who are blood mages, and I don't consider saving the world from darkspawn evil by any measure.

It is not one person, it is just about every mage in this game........

And yes I do belive that the leader of these so called "good" mages needs to be held at a higher standered. If he can turn evil so easly........

In what way is Orsino's fall "easy?" He was backed into a corner in the middle of a violent battlefield with around twelve living alies and the absolute surity that he and everyone he knew and loved was about to die, or already had.

Despair and desperation are far more powerful motivators than ambition, lust for power and pride put together.

... On an unrelated note, was anyone else pissed you couldn't loot his awesome dragon-staff? Even people who think mages are inherently evil and need to die have to admit its an pretty awesome walking stick.

Thing is I supported the mages just for my sister, and he doesn't turn until after I kill all the dang templars. He looks around and says "oh we are winning, till to vailidate all the templars fear of mages".

I realize everyones experince with this sceen is not the same, but the fact that he still turns, with your support, or not is quite telling in my eyes.

You kill a tiny fraction of the total number of templars in the city. The Templars are legion. The mages are few.

>.> <.<

... No comment on the awesome dragon-staff?

Haha yes but I'm the dang champion of Kirkwall, have some faith mage.

I didn't even notice the staff, now that I'm on my mage play-through it will prolly get me upset.

[Doc Faust]

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

Thing is that didn't stop someone like Uldred.. yeah he was an abomination when he decided to start his coup, but he still made a pact with the demon.

Meredith's way did not stop... um... (lots of names) from making a pact with a demon(s)

What's your point?

Well my point is you said having a better way of life, giving more living space.. ect would deter mages rebelling from the Chantry when this is obviously not the case.

I did not say this. I said giving mages basic human dignity was superior to denying them such. This has nothing to do with their liklyhood of rebellion. Its about that whole inconvenient "they're people" thing.

[LobselVith8]

Die, I don't pretend to know everything tree is to know about the Dales, but we know they didn't build an empire of slaves on blood magic, so how is it valid for some people to claim that free mages mean another Tevinter when this isn't the case? Even if mages are in positions of auhority like the Dales, how is that different than the nobility ruling Ferelden or Orlais by noble blood? So far we have seen no democracies, and this is essentially medieval times.

[packardbell]

Doc Faust wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

Thing is that didn't stop someone like Uldred.. yeah he was an abomination when he decided to start his coup, but he still made a pact with the demon.

Meredith's way did not stop... um... (lots of names) from making a pact with a demon(s)

What's your point?

Well my point is you said having a better way of life, giving more living space.. ect would deter mages rebelling from the Chantry when this is obviously not the case.

I did not say this. I said giving mages basic human dignity was superior to denying them such. This has nothing to do with their liklyhood of rebellion. Its about that whole inconvenient "they're people" thing.

Well it seems the majority of mages who resort to blood magic as a means of 'survival' want nothing but complete domination over their peers.. not to escape. This has been proven many times, yes Meredith had good intentions so far when the countless examples of Mages abusing their powers elevated. 

Hawke's situation with his/her mother is major example in this case. If given more freedoms mages will abuse it, pretty simple. Maybe they should just dump them all in Tevinter somewhere.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Die, I don't pretend to know everything tree is to know about the Dales, but we know they didn't build an empire of slaves on blood magic, so how is it valid for some people to claim that free mages mean another Tevinter when this isn't the case? Even if mages are in positions of auhority like the Dales, how is that different than the nobility ruling Ferelden or Orlais by noble blood? So far we have seen no democracies, and this is essentially medieval times.

They might have had slaves, and they might have had blood magic. We don't know

The difference is that a non-mage can rase an army and yes he can kill alot of people, but a mage dosent need an army, he just needs a couple mage friends like Anders and boom he's now incharge. You think the nobility is bad now? Think of a blood mage with that much power over the comon man....

[Doc Faust]

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

Thing is that didn't stop someone like Uldred.. yeah he was an abomination when he decided to start his coup, but he still made a pact with the demon.

Meredith's way did not stop... um... (lots of names) from making a pact with a demon(s)

What's your point?

Well my point is you said having a better way of life, giving more living space.. ect would deter mages rebelling from the Chantry when this is obviously not the case.

I did not say this. I said giving mages basic human dignity was superior to denying them such. This has nothing to do with their liklyhood of rebellion. Its about that whole inconvenient "they're people" thing.

Well it seems the majority of mages who resort to blood magic as a means of 'survival' want nothing but complete domination over their peers.. not to escape. This has been proven many times, yes Meredith had good intentions so far when the countless examples of Mages abusing their powers elevated. 

Hawke's situation with his/her mother is major example in this case. If given more freedoms mages will abuse it, pretty simple. Maybe they should just dump them all in Tevinter somewhere.

Again, untrue. Kirkwall sees more Circle-defections than Ferelden ever did, and Kirkwall treats its mages far worse than Ferelden's circle does. This is not a causal relationship, but it is suggestive. Not condoning rape, torture, solitary confinement, and permanent house arrest for arbitrary crimes is, a priori, superior to condoing such. Even if both circles had equal defection rates, the circle that treats its mages as people rather than dangerous animals is inherently superior. They do not have equal defection rates, Ferelden's is lower. Vis: Ferelden's Circle of Magi is superior to Kirkwall's. I would argue much of the difference comes in the form of the Knight Commanders of both circles: Gregor is better at his job than Meredith.

YMMV.

[RosaAquafire]

Doc Faust wrote...

To clarify: I do not argue that the circle system should be abolished. Indeed, when properly overseen, the Circles work. Knight Commanders like Gregor-- reasonable, marginally charitable, somewhat compassionate, and understanding, while still being vigilant and pragmatic-- produce both livable conditions and safety for all involved. Its when you start getting mages watched over by Templars without compassion, mercy or the understanding that magi are still fundamentally human beings and should be treated with some dignity that problems develop.

tl;dr: I support the Circles, I do not support Meredith.

I stopped reading the thread after this because I think this summarizes the entire debate very well.

What happened in Kirkwall was the result of the fact that there should NEVER have been a Circle in Kirkwall. The Veil is just way too thin there. The mages in Kirkwall were unruly because the Veil was thin. The templars were forced to become harsh to make up for that. Then the mages were forced to turn to more desperate measures because of how they were abused by the templars. And then, yada yada yada.