252 réponses à ce sujet

[elikal71]

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

As to the morality: Every person is responsible for his actions. Blaming a situation is bollocks. YOU decide to go Dark Side. Period. People give into fear and follow the path of hate, that is not unique to Mages.

Modifié par elikal71, 13 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[Doc Faust]

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

Somewhat unfair: most APOSTATES in Kirkwall were blood magi. The Rite of Annulment explicitly does not target Apostates, only Circle Members. Meredith invoked it in response to the actions of an Apostate from a different Circle, even. Again, as Orsino says "the circle didn't even do this."

I also find it somewhat... interesting? that the single most horendous atrocity in the game is carried out not by a blood mage, but by a spirit healer, which is about as far removed from blood mage as you can get without being mundane.

[boraxalmighty]

This whole discussion has me reading x-men comics again lol.

[Everwarden]

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

One side is evil because they've been beaten for years and are forced into a corner. The other side is evil because of religious dogma. I know which side I'd pick, even if every single surviving mage is a blood mage*.

As an aside. Just because the chantry says so doesn't make blood magic inherently evil. The only problem with blood magic is that the knowledge has to come from demons because you'll have a hard time finding a living blood mage willing to teach you. If blood magic were something you could learn from a book it wouldn't be any worse than any other magic. It's odd that people seem to take the 'blood magic=bad' point for granted. 

[Doc Faust]

Everwarden wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

One side is evil because they've been beaten for years and are forced into a corner. The other side is evil because of religious dogma. I know which side I'd pick, even if every single surviving mage is a blood mage*.

As an aside. Just because the chantry says so doesn't make blood magic inherently evil. The only problem with blood magic is that the knowledge has to come from demons because you'll have a hard time finding a living blood mage willing to teach you. If blood magic were something you could learn from a book it wouldn't be any worse than any other magic. It's odd that people seem to take the 'blood magic=bad' point for granted. 

To be fair Blood Magic is also bad because it has very few potential positive applications that can't be managed with regular magic and a lot of Lyrium. It is, in fact, a tool, and hence not inherently evil one way or another: its just that the uses this tool can be put to tend to be... unpleasant.

[VettoRyouzou]

Blood magic is evil no matter how you put it and I am pro mage. Saying it a tool and not "normally" evil but in the hands it is, is like saying a AK-47 isn't evil... till put in the wrong hands for some one to shoot it off.

[elikal71]

Everwarden wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

One side is evil because they've been beaten for years and are forced into a corner. The other side is evil because of religious dogma. I know which side I'd pick, even if every single surviving mage is a blood mage*.

As an aside. Just because the chantry says so doesn't make blood magic inherently evil. The only problem with blood magic is that the knowledge has to come from demons because you'll have a hard time finding a living blood mage willing to teach you. If blood magic were something you could learn from a book it wouldn't be any worse than any other magic. It's odd that people seem to take the 'blood magic=bad' point for granted. 

Maybe it's because EVERY single Blood Mage we have seen ended up being a Psycho? Sometimes the tool changes the user, and in the case of Blood Magic it does seem to be the case.

[Doc Faust]

elikal71 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

One side is evil because they've been beaten for years and are forced into a corner. The other side is evil because of religious dogma. I know which side I'd pick, even if every single surviving mage is a blood mage*.

As an aside. Just because the chantry says so doesn't make blood magic inherently evil. The only problem with blood magic is that the knowledge has to come from demons because you'll have a hard time finding a living blood mage willing to teach you. If blood magic were something you could learn from a book it wouldn't be any worse than any other magic. It's odd that people seem to take the 'blood magic=bad' point for granted. 

Maybe it's because EVERY single Blood Mage we have seen ended up being a Psycho? Sometimes the tool changes the user, and in the case of Blood Magic it does seem to be the case.

As I pointed out eariler in the thread, this is Hyperbole. Hawke does not have to be a Psycho, and no, him being the PC does not make him an unusable example. If they wanted Blood Magic to be inherently corrupting, they could have restricted choices as a conseqence of taking the spec.

Even without him, there's Jowan, Merril (Merril's obsession was not caused by blood magic, Merril's blood magic was caused by her obsession) and that one unnamed guy at the very least. Blood magic is dangerous and should be avoided by just about everyone. It does not determine personality.

[MortalEngines]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

Blood magic is evil no matter how you put it and I am pro mage. Saying it a tool and not "normally" evil but in the hands it is, is like saying a AK-47 isn't evil... till put in the wrong hands for some one to shoot it off.

This. No matter what you use it for, blood magic involves a demon and it will ALWAYS influence, no matter how much you think it doesn't, it will. Just look at Merrill, she made a pact for a good cause, for her people and she ended up killing her Keeper.

Just because your character can use blood magic without reprecussions doesn't mean anyone else can. The only reason you don't turn into an abomination or something is for story sake.

[cglasgow]

To be fair, Keeper Meredith ended up killing herself. Left to her own devices, the first person Merrill would have gotten killed is Merrill.   Which was a risk she knew and was willing to accept.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[MotoSkunkX]

You say blood magic like it's a BAD thing.

My adorable Merrill and Paragon blood mage Hawke would disagree.

[VettoRyouzou]

Doc Faust wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

One side is evil because they've been beaten for years and are forced into a corner. The other side is evil because of religious dogma. I know which side I'd pick, even if every single surviving mage is a blood mage*.

As an aside. Just because the chantry says so doesn't make blood magic inherently evil. The only problem with blood magic is that the knowledge has to come from demons because you'll have a hard time finding a living blood mage willing to teach you. If blood magic were something you could learn from a book it wouldn't be any worse than any other magic. It's odd that people seem to take the 'blood magic=bad' point for granted. 

Maybe it's because EVERY single Blood Mage we have seen ended up being a Psycho? Sometimes the tool changes the user, and in the case of Blood Magic it does seem to be the case.

As I pointed out eariler in the thread, this is Hyperbole. Hawke does not have to be a Psycho, and no, him being the PC does not make him an unusable example. If they wanted Blood Magic to be inherently corrupting, they could have restricted choices as a conseqence of taking the spec.

Even without him, there's Jowan, Merril (Merril's obsession was not caused by blood magic, Merril's blood magic was caused by her obsession) and that one unnamed guy at the very least. Blood magic is dangerous and should be avoided by just about everyone. It does not determine personality.

1. Yes it doesn't matter with Hawke I'll say that till I'm blue in the face game developers RARELY will limit the player  game play wise for the sake of story I mean for god sake if you are a mage in this game no one notices it 99% of the time. So there logic for you.

2. Merril blood magic may not have started before the mirror but it sure as hell as driven her to go with Demons any time she can't come up with a fix.

3. Jowan poisoned the Erl of redcliff as well as killed DOZENS of templar in his escape which might I add was brought on only CASE HE WAS USING BLOOD MAGIC!.

Each character you listed is flawed case of blood magic it is evil sit here and try to think it not but that about the same as saying Necromancers actually only revive the end dead to plant gardens.

Modifié par VettoRyouzou, 13 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...

This. No matter what you use it for, blood magic involves a demon and it will ALWAYS influence,

All magic was learned from demons. You only need demonic education for blood magic in contemporary Thedas because the Chantry is into banning **** and burning books. There is no reason to think that blood magic is any worse a weapon than lobbing a ball of fire at someone. 

[LobselVith8]

Jowan also saves refugees as Master Levyn. Merrill wants to reclaim a lost piece of her culture that murdered her friends when it was corrupted. Grey Warden mages have resorted to blood magic as a means to fight the darkspawn.

[Zaros]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

It would make more sense to side with the mages if Orsino didn't use blood magic and didn't conspire to kill your mother.

  Wh... wh... what!? Oh god, I missed that. *sniffle*

Yeah, after you kill the serial killer you find a note signed O that says he's interested in the research and experiments he's conducting. Even going so far as to support what he's doing to make the frankstein woman to see the results. I would've just chalked this up as someone else if Orsino didn't name drop the serial killer and mention his research right before turning into a harvester. He knew about it the whole damn time.

Son of a ****, I am not siding with the mages anymore.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...
All magic was learned from demons. You only need demonic education for blood magic in contemporary Thedas because the Chantry is into banning **** and burning books. There is no reason to think that blood magic is any worse a weapon than lobbing a ball of fire at someone. 

It may have originated from demons, but demons don't need an actively involved for you to cast it. Most magic is drawn from the powers of the fade, whereas blood magic is drawn directly from a demon and by nature it's abilities are corrupt. Mind control, blood sacrifice etc, none of this is needed or capable in normal magic, just Lyrium. 

So you do need demonic presense for blood magic, even Morrigan keeps away from blood magic. For blood magic, you require to make a pact with a demon to draw the power from them, it's the only way. Otherwise it wouldn't of corrupted all the magistars long ago anyway. 

Look at it like this. 
Normal Magic is a pistol given to you with strict military training.
Blood Magic is a assualt rifle thrown at you with zero explanation and basically saying "Go nuts"

Merrill tried to justify blood magic, she was using it for good. But look what happened, she got the Keeper killed.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 13 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[Doc Faust]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I agree. It just made the end a no win situation. Bigot Templar fanatics VS mad blood mages... why I should chose any side here is beyond me. Both were IMO evil sickos.

One side is evil because they've been beaten for years and are forced into a corner. The other side is evil because of religious dogma. I know which side I'd pick, even if every single surviving mage is a blood mage*.

As an aside. Just because the chantry says so doesn't make blood magic inherently evil. The only problem with blood magic is that the knowledge has to come from demons because you'll have a hard time finding a living blood mage willing to teach you. If blood magic were something you could learn from a book it wouldn't be any worse than any other magic. It's odd that people seem to take the 'blood magic=bad' point for granted. 

Maybe it's because EVERY single Blood Mage we have seen ended up being a Psycho? Sometimes the tool changes the user, and in the case of Blood Magic it does seem to be the case.

As I pointed out eariler in the thread, this is Hyperbole. Hawke does not have to be a Psycho, and no, him being the PC does not make him an unusable example. If they wanted Blood Magic to be inherently corrupting, they could have restricted choices as a conseqence of taking the spec.

Even without him, there's Jowan, Merril (Merril's obsession was not caused by blood magic, Merril's blood magic was caused by her obsession) and that one unnamed guy at the very least. Blood magic is dangerous and should be avoided by just about everyone. It does not determine personality.

1. Yes it doesn't matter with Hawke I'll say that till I'm blue in the face game developers RARELY will limit the player  game play wise for the sake of story I mean for god sake if you are a mage in this game no one notices it 99% of the time. So there logic for you.

2. Merril blood magic may not have started before the mirror but it sure as hell as driven her to go with Demons any time she can't come up with a fix.

3. Jowan poisoned the Erl of redcliff as well as killed DOZENS of templar in his escape which might I add was brought on only CASE HE WAS USING BLOOD MAGIC!.

Each character you listed is flawed case of blood magic it is evil sit here and try to think it not but that about the same as saying Necromancers actually only revive the end dead to plant gardens.

1. Fine, whatever. The rest of my evidence stands.

2. Again, Merril picked up blood magic because she was obsessed with the mirror. Her obsession came first, and that was her defining flaw. Blood magic did not change her personality significantly, it did not lead to the death of her clan, and it did not make her evil. This doesn't mean she wasn't stupid to go for it, but her lack of wisdom and obsession are, again, her defining flaws. Both exist independant of Blood Magic.

3. He did not kill dozens of anybody. There were THEE Templars in that cutscene. THREE. One of them was GREGOR. And the ALL THREE GOT UP AGAIN. For ****'s sake, IRVING got back up after Jowan blood magiced him. An 80 year old man survived the spell. He was pulling his ****ing punches.

Do not LIE to make your point while pretending academic discourse. It pisses me off.

Modifié par Doc Faust, 13 mars 2011 - 07:46 .

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...

So you do need demonic presense for blood magic, even Morrigan keeps away from blood magic. For blood magic, you require to make a pact with a demon to draw the power from them, it's the only way. Otherwise it wouldn't of corrupted all the magistars long ago anyway. 

No. Blood magic is powered by blood, not demons. That's why it's called "blood magic" and not "demon groping fun magic". You learn how to use blood as a source of fuel for your spells from demons only because the knowledge of how to do it has been largely lost to humans. 

[VettoRyouzou]

Doc Faust wrote...

3. He did not kill dozens of anybody. There were THEE Templars in that cutscene. THREE. And the BOTH OF THEM GOT UP AGAIN. For ****'s sake, IRVING got back up after Jowan blood magiced him. An 80 year old man survived the spell. He was pulling his ****ing punches.

Do not LIE to make your point while pretending academic discourse. It pisses me off.

He killed other who had been chasing him before being capture and ya a 80 year old man lived threw his posioniong.. it only took ya know nothing major to save his life just a little FING Andraste ashes to save his life so don't sit there and think it wasn't that bad of a illness when it took the ashes of a legend to save his life.

blood magic evil face it kid.

[Everwarden]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

He killed other who had been chasing him before being capture and ya a 80 year old man lived threw his posioniong.. it only took ya know nothing major to save his life just a little FING Andraste ashes to save his life so don't sit there and think it wasn't that bad of a illness when it took the ashes of a legend to save his life.

blood magic evil face it kid.

Go away, troll. 

[VettoRyouzou]

Everwarden wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

He killed other who had been chasing him before being capture and ya a 80 year old man lived threw his posioniong.. it only took ya know nothing major to save his life just a little FING Andraste ashes to save his life so don't sit there and think it wasn't that bad of a illness when it took the ashes of a legend to save his life.

blood magic evil face it kid.

Go away, troll. 

"I don't agree with you thus are a troll!!!!111oneoneone"

Grow up kid not everyone going to agree with you.

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider already said Arl Eamon wasn't supposed to die from the illness, and would provide him with an antidote through his elven spy. Jowan was told Eamon was a threat to Ferelden, and his actions had nothing to do with blood magic when it came to the poison.

[Doc Faust]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

Doc Faust wrote...

3. He did not kill dozens of anybody. There were THEE Templars in that cutscene. THREE. And the BOTH OF THEM GOT UP AGAIN. For ****'s sake, IRVING got back up after Jowan blood magiced him. An 80 year old man survived the spell. He was pulling his ****ing punches.

Do not LIE to make your point while pretending academic discourse. It pisses me off.

He killed other who had been chasing him before being capture and ya a 80 year old man lived threw his posioniong.. it only took ya know nothing major to save his life just a little FING Andraste ashes to save his life so don't sit there and think it wasn't that bad of a illness when it took the ashes of a legend to save his life.

blood magic evil face it kid.

I was talking about Irving. Not Arl Redcliff.

The First Enchanter. He's in the cutscene where Jowan escapes the tower, and survies being showered in Jowan-blood, just like Gregor and the two templars he brought with him. Jowan escaped the tower without killing anyone, because Jowan, while a bit of a idiot and a dork, isn't a bad person.

Nowhere in the game does it mention Jowan killing other Templars.

I don't remember the poison being any kind of blood magic. It was just a poison Logain gave him.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...
No. Blood magic is powered by blood, not demons. That's why it's called "blood magic" and not "demon groping fun magic". You learn how to use blood as a source of fuel for your spells from demons only because the knowledge of how to do it has been largely lost to humans. 

Fair dues, I made a mistake. However then, your arguement about other magic being learnt from demons originally is nulled, seeing as most magic was taught by the old gods. And its not just blood, its life force that blood magic uses instead of Lyrium. 

However the reason that blood magic is worse than any other magic is that it is far too corruptable than any other form. Not just because of the demons, but because of it's nature. While other magic is more natural (mostly elemental types), blood magic is not, because it has the ability to spilt the fade and control minds.

It's far more sinster and corruptable than any other magic. No only magic has the ability to directly call demons through the fade on your behalf. Even if you could learn blood magic from a book, eventually constant contact with the fade would cause you to lose yourself.

Like I've said, Merril is a prime example. As is Jowan.

[sonofalich]

lol, i really hated that though. the mages always resorted to blood magic.