252 réponses à ce sujet

[Dudalizer]

Seriously. Is there a mage in DA2 that is NOT a blood mage or abomination? I can only think of a couple. It appears that Bioware really wanted to paint mages in a less sympathetic light in DA2, and they got a bit carried away IMO.

[Pileyourbodies]

The mages were no better than terrorists some cases even worse at least the terrorists like anders just kill you the mages will enslave your mind with your own blood. The right of annulment should have been called up as soon as we discovered Karen and the apostates implanting templars with demons. The templars did some bad things but not nearly as bad as the Mages do. You meet demons that are nicer than the mages in this game Torpor in the fade is far more upstanding than the mages.

[Magni56]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

It's pretty clear that even the First Enchanter had been practicing Blood Magic for years if you bothered to read the notes when trying to save your mother. 

It's perfectly clear that this is hardly simply a result of pushback against Meredith's actions. She was right. They really were practicing Blood Magic, and when the First Enchanter himself has been doing so for years, how many other mages was he covering for during all that time?

I mean, once you realize the depths that Orsino had been lying at, a lot of things start to become crystal clear, and all his protests loose any semblence of coherance.

I stand by my statement. If you took the time to get to know Meredith, you'd have seen that the actions she's taken against the Mages hurt her deeply, and that she is TRYING to do everything short of calling for annulment. Which she finally does. And, who can blame her at that point.

Blaming it all on her as if all those mages only took up Blood Magic out of plight is incredibly naive and simplistic.

And it's also pretty clear that the insane degree of opression at the circle existed for even longer than that. It's is perfectly clear that the whole revolt was largely the result of years of pressure applied on the mages. Meredith was "right" because her entire behaviour ensured that she would become so. A self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one.

Replace her with someone sane and the worst you'll get is a limited uprising by a minority of the mages, with the remainder staying out of it or actively aiding the Templars.

And wether her actions hurt her isn't really relevant. The path to hell is paved with good intentions. Meredith was simply the wrong person for the job. Put someone like her in front of a crusading army or protecting an important chantry and she's gonna be perfect for it. Put her in charge of a prison and you get a trainwreck.

Modifié par Magni56, 15 mars 2011 - 05:47 .

[Sanguinerin]

Perhaps unfortunately so, I was playing a mage on my first run. I never got to see Bethany as a strong example of a good mage. I had my own character, who would have been the peacekeeper trying to save everyone around her--no matter the class--so she wasn't a good example.

The only mage who doesn't stand out as a blood mage is Anders, and I would say he's worse than a blood mage. I sided with the mages--I was one. I believed that, despite the entire game making it seem otherwise, that there were good mages in the Circle. Then I got to see the battle from the mages' side, where even the First Enchanter fell to blood magic and turned out to be behind Leandra's death.

Seriously, one mage in the final battle who would rather die honorably than turn to blood magic was all that I would have liked to see. I don't hate the Chantry. I don't hate the Templars. I see them as somewhat necessary, because magic can be so unpredictably deadly. I suppose I'm an Aequitarian at heart... But not one mage turned out to really just be decent except for perhaps Emile de Launcet. I would like to be able to side with the mages and feel like I'm actually fighting for something, rather than siding with them and feeling totally betrayed.

Throughout the entire endgame battle, I found Cullen to be the only voice of reason after Elthina removed from the picture, and I still hardly consider him to be completely reasonable. He tries, that I believe. I might go back on my character save and side with the templars, to see how it plays out differently.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Magni56 wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

It's pretty clear that even the First Enchanter had been practicing Blood Magic for years if you bothered to read the notes when trying to save your mother. 

It's perfectly clear that this is hardly simply a result of pushback against Meredith's actions. She was right. They really were practicing Blood Magic, and when the First Enchanter himself has been doing so for years, how many other mages was he covering for during all that time?

I mean, once you realize the depths that Orsino had been lying at, a lot of things start to become crystal clear, and all his protests loose any semblence of coherance.

I stand by my statement. If you took the time to get to know Meredith, you'd have seen that the actions she's taken against the Mages hurt her deeply, and that she is TRYING to do everything short of calling for annulment. Which she finally does. And, who can blame her at that point.

Blaming it all on her as if all those mages only took up Blood Magic out of plight is incredibly naive and simplistic.

And it's also pretty clear that the insane degree of opression at the circle existed for even longer than that. It's is perfectly clear that the whole revolt was largely the result of years of pressure applied on the mages. Meredith was "right" because her entire behaviour ensured that she would become so. A self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one.

Replace her with someone sane and the worst you'll get is a limited uprising by a minority of the mages, with the remainder staying out of it or actively aiding the Templars.

And wether her actions hurt her isn't really relevant. The path to hell is paved with good intentions. Meredith was simply the wrong person for the job. Put someone like her in front of a crusading army or protecting an important chantry and she's gonna be perfect for it. Put her in charge of a prison and you get a trainwreck.

The fact that you think all that research into Blood Magic and animation of the dead in any way has anything to do with being oppressed simply tells me you're completely unreasonable. Because only an unreasonable person could possibly conclude that such research has anything to do with freeing one's self from oppression.

Meredith kept pushing because she kept being proven right. There's a strange mindset that refuses to lay blame on a person for their actions, but must always excuse those actions as their being due to someone else's. Personal responsibility is a lost phrase in today's generation.

You probably believe if the mages had never turned to blood magic in the first place all those years ago, Meredith would have simply made up excuses to keep turning the screws on them. It's easy to play what ifs, but what we do know is they not only "turned" to blood magic, some, if not many, if not most, have been doing it for years and years. 

How you can re-watch every scene with Orsino protesting his mage's innocene and proclamations about how just because one mage is bad, the rest of them aren't with a straight face boggles me. It's one of the great things about video games. You get to replay things with hindsight, unlike real life. Subsequent runthroughs make one realize how false virtually every mage in the game really is. It certainly makes you scoff when you realize Orsino is a huge researcher into Blood Magic and necrotic arts, and that he is indirectly responsible for your own mother's death. All the while preaching bull**** that is utter and complete lies.

At least Meredith and the Templars were speaking the truth, from their point of view.

But, yes, let us just blame Meredith's hard-nosed tactics for every mage in Kirkwall short of Bethany and Feyndrial turning out to be a Blood Mage. Or Leliana's comments in the Viscount's Keep that there is a concerted effort behind all the Blood Magic far and beyond simple pushback against the Templars at work. 

It's much easier to lay blame all on an old woman who ends up going crazy due to her proximity to the lyrium idol.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 15 mars 2011 - 05:57 .

[Cajeb]

HallowedWarden wrote...

Perhaps unfortunately so, I was playing a mage on my first run. I never got to see Bethany as a strong example of a good mage. I had my own character, who would have been the peacekeeper trying to save everyone around her--no matter the class--so she wasn't a good example.

The only mage who doesn't stand out as a blood mage is Anders, and I would say he's worse than a blood mage. I sided with the mages--I was one. I believed that, despite the entire game making it seem otherwise, that there were good mages in the Circle. Then I got to see the battle from the mages' side, where even the First Enchanter fell to blood magic and turned out to be behind Leandra's death.

Seriously, one mage in the final battle who would rather die honorably than turn to blood magic was all that I would have liked to see. I don't hate the Chantry. I don't hate the Templars. I see them as somewhat necessary, because magic can be so unpredictably deadly. I suppose I'm an Aequitarian at heart... But not one mage turned out to really just be decent except for perhaps Emile de Launcet. I would like to be able to side with the mages and feel like I'm actually fighting for something, rather than siding with them and feeling totally betrayed.

Throughout the entire endgame battle, I found Cullen to be the only voice of reason after Elthina removed from the picture, and I still hardly consider him to be completely reasonable. He tries, that I believe. I might go back on my character save and side with the templars, to see how it plays out differently.

This, so much

[Sanguinerin]

A spoiler to those who haven't sided with the templars.

*
*
*

I did go back to my old save and side with the templars this time. I find it terribly funny how siding with the templars allows me to save mages. Doing this scene in reverse, running into the room and fighting with them against templars or demons, would have certainly made siding with the mages all the more compelling. Instead, there's really just nothing gained by siding with the mages except watching how you save...no one. One little cutscene like that--or even mages standing with you in the fight after Orsino--or something! I don't want to side with the templars, but at least if I do that then I get to help those three mages in the battle be spared...

[TobiTobsen]

I fail to see how it was Meredith fault that Orsino supportet the Kirkwall Killer, for example. He didn't just hid him, he send him books and discussed his progress with him. In the end he even used a spell he learned from the sick bastard. Alone for that I would turn on him. Sorry you other mages. Your first entchanter allowed my mother to be killed. It's personal now.

Even as a mage I will pick the templar side. Like HallowedWarden said you even can save some mages that way, instead of being forced to slaughter your own side, the templars and get stabbed in the back by Orsino.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 15 mars 2011 - 01:25 .

[Magni56]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

The fact that you think all that research into Blood Magic and animation of the dead in any way has anything to do with being oppressed simply tells me you're completely unreasonable. Because only an unreasonable person could possibly conclude that such research has anything to do with freeing one's self from oppression.

Meredith kept pushing because she kept being proven right. There's a strange mindset that refuses to lay blame on a person for their actions, but must always excuse those actions as their being due to someone else's. Personal responsibility is a lost phrase in today's generation.

You probably believe if the mages had never turned to blood magic in the first place all those years ago, Meredith would have simply made up excuses to keep turning the screws on them. It's easy to play what ifs, but what we do know is they not only "turned" to blood magic, some, if not many, if not most, have been doing it for years and years. 

How you can re-watch every scene with Orsino protesting his mage's innocene and proclamations about how just because one mage is bad, the rest of them aren't with a straight face boggles me. It's one of the great things about video games. You get to replay things with hindsight, unlike real life. Subsequent runthroughs make one realize how false virtually every mage in the game really is. It certainly makes you scoff when you realize Orsino is a huge researcher into Blood Magic and necrotic arts, and that he is indirectly responsible for your own mother's death. All the while preaching bull**** that is utter and complete lies.

At least Meredith and the Templars were speaking the truth, from their point of view.

But, yes, let us just blame Meredith's hard-nosed tactics for every mage in Kirkwall short of Bethany and Feyndrial turning out to be a Blood Mage. Or Leliana's comments in the Viscount's Keep that there is a concerted effort behind all the Blood Magic far and beyond simple pushback against the Templars at work. 

It's much easier to lay blame all on an old woman who ends up going crazy due to her proximity to the lyrium idol.

The fact that you think that it's unreasonable for the mages to go to any lenghts after years of getting treated like that shows that you fail human psychology.

Meredith "kept pushing" in a situation that she created herself and which became a perpetual cycle as a result of that. Her behaviour is the root cause of it all. It's an even stranger mindset tonever ascribe the actions of a person to their circumstances. It completely ignores human nature and is bound to produce nothing but a completely flawed analysis. Not to mention that it is a mindset running contrary to just about every piece of factual evidence out there. There's a reason why widespread poverty causes crime rates to go through the roof, just to provide one example.

And who said that it was even the mages (or the circle mages, Meredith seems to have a wee bit of a problem making a disctinction there) starting it at all? Not that it matters, given that we've seen someone actually cut out for her job (Greagoir) being able to control such a case without going full fascist on the entire circle, which is an ultimately self-defeating "solution".

I'm not absolving anyone from any blame here, I'm only stating one simple fact: That Meredith was a complete failure in the task of guarding the circle. Why? Because she never was a people person, which unfortunately is necessary for that task unless you want it all to end in tears. Her policies set in motion a perpetual downwards spiral that lead to an by that point inevitable large-scale rebellion.

You want to minimise the bloodshed in this entire trainwreck? Kick out both Meredith and Orsino around the time Hawke deals with the Qunari and let their replacements organise a thourough screening and search of the entire circle in exchange for giving the mages some actual leeway afterwards. You're gonna end up with a bunch of blood mages and violence, but it will be nothing like the full-blown war three years later. By that time, it was genuinely too late for anyone to stop the avalanche.

Modifié par Magni56, 15 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[R-F]

I have to admit that got a tad annoying. I can understand why they are angry but turning to blood magic just proves the Templar's right. It kind of felt like the decision in battlestar to just arbitrarily decide which humans were cylons

also lol at op.

[JakePT]

This is a weakness of the Dragon Age setting in general. No one is just 'crazy', if their slightly off balance then they can summon 10 demons and 20 corpses to fight against anyone whole knocks on their door.

The game tries to say "Sure, Meredith might have a point about there being some bad blood mages, but does that justify her actions?" but then has 99% of the Mages you meet be blood mages. Sure there's the whole oppression angle but I couldn't name a single normal mage off the top of my head. When every battle you fight ends up being about demons and blood mages, Meredith doesn't seem anywhere near as unbalanced as the writing makes her sound.

[Tainan7509]

Siding with templars is the best of the worse in final situation. Blood mage kill Hawke's mother and kidnapped your sister. I don't see any reason why you should help mages in this case. But i must agree that Templars went too far for it. killing all mages in the circle is completely wrong and it would trigger a world war.
In my opinion, i think there are two way to solve it 1) leave it to them and let them both die and fight each other. 2) how about we exterminate both side for overall these chaos they caused.

[Kohaku]

I'm glad I saw this topic. This was the same thing I said while playing though the game. I'm so siding with the Templars as a mage. The amount of crazy blood mages in Kirkwall has to be culled some kind of way. Hell, I'm at the point Kirkwall needs to be leveled and just call it a lost cause. All kinds of crazy breeds there. O_o

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think demons, abominations and blood magic should have appeared. Whether you blame the rise on Meredith or on the mages itself is a futile exercise for me, as both are just symptoms of a dysfunctional system (I am sounding like the Arishok).

That said, the cheer number of blood mages, abominations and demons essentially turned the story from Mage vs Templar into Blood magic / Abominations / demons / aka evulz vs everything else. Ruined the story.

Maybe it was a response from Bioware to the many people who, I believe, had a naive view on magic and mages. That's fine, but what was done in DA2 was overkill.

[HarlequinKing]

KnightofPhoenix: nice to see another Gargoyles fan here!

And yeah, if the writers hadn't beaten everyone over the head with the blood mages in your face, then siding with the mages would've been the "obvious" good guy path. I'm glad it's not.

The only weakness I thought with this approach was the ending, since even if you side with the mages, you spend more time fighting abominations than templars. And then Orsino turns against you, anyway. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Did he really think he could stand against the Champion of Kirkwall AND all the templars? Come on!

Modifié par HarlequinKing, 15 mars 2011 - 03:13 .

[LeaveMeAlone9009]

LifeBlood wrote...

"Mike, we have written a list of all noteworthy mage characters in the game on this inkboard. We need to decide which of these will be blood mages. Do you have any suggestions?"
Mike Laidlaw stares resolutely at the inkboard for a few seconds, stands up, and bodyslams the board to the floor.
"Good choice, sir."

This^

[PsychoBlonde]

HarlequinKing wrote...

KnightofPhoenix: nice to see another Gargoyles fan here!

And yeah, if the writers hadn't beaten everyone over the head with the blood mages in your face, then siding with the mages would've been the "obvious" good guy path. I'm glad it's not.

The only weakness I thought with this approach was the ending, since even if you side with the mages, you spend more time fighting abominations than templars. And then Orsino turns against you, anyway. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Did he really think he could stand against the Champion of Kirkwall AND all the templars? Come on!

I think they were trying to correct a problem that's inherent in the fact that they let you play a mage when mages are supposed to be one step away from falling off the deep end at all times.  They can't just seize control of your character and say "huh, you went nuts!  too bad!", so ANY attempt they make at giving credence to the "mages are dangerous and must be controlled" camp will necessarily fall flat, because you potentially have access to one huge, massive, inescapable counterexample: the main character.

Granted, they could have fixed this by having your main be "special" in some way, but this would also be kind of lame, just in a different way.  (Granted, your mage Hawke does have the distinction of the fact that nobody is much bothered with the fact that you're a mage--so you ARE special in a way, it's just never explicitly stated.  But you're the *only* mage in the game who doesn't get hassled somehow just for *being* a mage.  Even *Merril* was isolated from her own people so that she became obsessed with their heritage instead of thinking about THEM.)  So, instead, they seem to have gone the route of having just about every other mage in the entire game be a complete psychopath.

[Lellandra]

Completely agree with the OP! I was trying to cover my laugh here at work!

I was cursing so much when Orsino turned my husband came to look at the screen!

This every mage is a blood mage or soon-to-be abomination is CRAP! And the only one that is not besides Hawke is an idiot that escaped the Circle and went drinking?

Or maybe, since not even the knight commander knows I'm a mage I must be immune to possession!

[TobiTobsen]

Tainan7509 wrote...

Siding with templars is the best of the worse in final situation. Blood mage kill Hawke's mother and kidnapped your sister. I don't see any reason why you should help mages in this case. But i must agree that Templars went too far for it. killing all mages in the circle is completely wrong and it would trigger a world war.
In my opinion, i think there are two way to solve it 1) leave it to them and let them both die and fight each other. 2) how about we exterminate both side for overall these chaos they caused.

Meredith. Not every single one of the templars. If you side with them in the end, support Cullen and question Meredith decisions, you're able to save more mages than in the mage ending, if you ask me. Because nobody besides Meredith seems to like the idea of killing every single mage in Kirkwall. They even disobey her orders.

[lost lupus]

JakePT wrote...

This is a weakness of the Dragon Age setting in general. No one is just 'crazy', if their slightly off balance then they can summon 10 demons and 20 corpses to fight against anyone whole knocks on their door.

The game tries to say "Sure, Meredith might have a point about there being some bad blood mages, but does that justify her actions?" but then has 99% of the Mages you meet be blood mages. Sure there's the whole oppression angle but I couldn't name a single normal mage off the top of my head. When every battle you fight ends up being about demons and blood mages, Meredith doesn't seem anywhere near as unbalanced as the writing makes her sound.

because they wanted the choice to be "tough" they also needed to show that the circles are "nessary"
if 99% of the mages you met werent blood mages it wouldnt even be a choice
with the templars being how they were you needed to make the mages worse else you can justify everything the mages did the point was to make it "hard" to justify

and basicaly it went too far all they had to do was have the head mage die at meredith's hands that way it shows some mages are good (and a ralling cry for mages) the way they did it it's impossible to side with the oppressed because of what happens if you do (even as a mage i was like this is ****ed up but sooner or later they will come for me)

it paints a few templars in kirkwall as just out of control and their leader a nut
it paints the vast majority of mages in kirkwall as nuts and their leader desperate and unstable

[Eludajae]

Even if you want to try and save the mages you find out that Orinso sheltered the guy that killed your mother, why side with him?

[Everwarden]

Eludajae wrote...

Even if you want to try and save the mages you find out that Orinso sheltered the guy that killed your mother, why side with him?

Because even if Orsino is evil, his side is still right. Even with all of the contrived 'ebilness' they had to stack onto the mages to make it seem like a difficult choice when it really wasn't. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

*And yes, they are forced to serve the chantry, they aren't just guarded. In times of war the chantry sends mages into battle, and all mage goods and services come from the circle and profit the chantry. 

Proceeds from mage goods go to the Circle. This is the entire basis for an entire fraternity in the Circles, the group that advocates that this should be the entire focus of mages, so that the Circles, and mages, gain the money to benefit themselves. If the sales went directly to the Chantry coffers, and not the Circle's, the fraternity would not exist.

In times of war, some mages go to war: how they are selected, or their state in going, are never elaborated. Our one experience of this is the mage origin, in which the Templars fought against mages going to war. Even in the event of outright conscription (as opposed to volunteers or bargains), this is the same basis of recruitment of all the armies of Thedas, not an exceptional burden on the magi.


The mages do not live in chattel slavery, which is what most people think of when the word slavery is thrown around. They are not industrial slaves either. They do not fit the historical context of house slaves as well. Templars are enforcers of what they can not do, which is restrictive, not masters who telling them what to do, which is commanding.

The proper relevant analogy to the mages is house arrest, mixed with quarantine. While you can certainly argue that house arrest and quarantine are equivalent to slavery, you'd certainly have a far greater burden of proof to argue the equivalence.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Leliana was clear when she talks to you in the Viscount's Keep that the Seekers believe there is a force manipulating events in Kirkwall between the Templars and the Mages and that the level of blood magic is much higher than the norm and definitely not simply a response to the Templars.

If you didn't talk to her, she's part of Sebastian's DLC quest.

I thought it was pretty clear that mage vs templar is not the real conflict going on and not the reason why she and Cassandra are looking for you. These Seekers are on the trail of whatever organization/force was manipulating the events in Kirkwall. One of those being turning so many mages to Blood Magic.

[LobselVith8]

It's not house arrest, Dean, when you can get raped, tortured, given a lobotomy, or murdered with no agency over your own life. You had Anders' friend begging him to kill him he didn't want to be a "Templar puppet" anymore. You have multiple characters, including Hawke, who can address the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. Having no control over your life is hardly just house arrest.