96 réponses à ce sujet

[x-president]

soteria wrote...

No they're not good until you upgrade them. But they're great once you do. Bursting Arrow does two useful things:
1. Good damage on BRITTLE enemies. So it's good to combine with Cone of Cold for example.
2. Causes the obscured effect. This is useful in itself but great when combined with the Shadow tree so you can start disorienting enemies.

But doesn't bursting shot cause FF? What good is it to have an abilitiy that can obscure my allies when I'm also hitting them with damage?

I don't think it casues FF with obscure upgrade, but I'm not 100% sure.




@OP:  Those spells are workable.  In fact I had a similar setup in the beginning and didn't have issues.  The onyl thing I would reccommend is sticking to certain areas.  I wouldn't jump around to a bunch of spell trees.

Modifié par x-president, 14 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[rabidhellhound]

So... EXACTLY what spells would everyone recommend to get and at what levels? I'm interested for both Nightmare and the lowers difficulties.

Right now I'm playing a level 13 elemental mage with the force mage talents on normal, which seems to be working out fairly well. I've got the occational problem when my tank won't hold agro or everyone is too spread out and she can't get it, but otherwise I can kill things pretty well. I've got good AoE spells that either mock the enemies around for decent damage or hold them in place, and then there's the ice line, which is simply awesome in its own right and great for dealing with enemies that want to creep up on you.

But are there other options that are really SO MUCH better? If so, what are they and how to you set up cross class combos well to use them? Exactly what tactics should I design for my characters so that I can utilize them the best?

Any help will be nice, because truth be told, some battles I'm amazed I even lived through (though admitably, there were 4+ elites on the field at one time).

[Graunt]

rabidhellhound wrote...

So... EXACTLY what spells would everyone recommend to get and at what levels? I'm interested for both Nightmare and the lowers difficulties.

Right now I'm playing a level 13 elemental mage with the force mage talents on normal, which seems to be working out fairly well. I've got the occational problem when my tank won't hold agro or everyone is too spread out and she can't get it, but otherwise I can kill things pretty well. I've got good AoE spells that either mock the enemies around for decent damage or hold them in place, and then there's the ice line, which is simply awesome in its own right and great for dealing with enemies that want to creep up on you.

But are there other options that are really SO MUCH better? If so, what are they and how to you set up cross class combos well to use them? Exactly what tactics should I design for my characters so that I can utilize them the best?

Any help will be nice, because truth be told, some battles I'm amazed I even lived through (though admitably, there were 4+ elites on the field at one time).

I'm in the process of a mini guide for Nightmare -- that is of course just my opinion, but I'll leave you with the way my initial run looked, and it literally owned everything up until the Rock Wraith.

1. Hawke: biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#miuhGrPSw1aVPwQh0Q - the main problem with this though is that I spent too much money overall during ACT 1 so I was short about 12 gold.  The easy solution is to simply not buy the Elixir from the Emporium since it carries over across all acts (I did not know this at the time).  I also found Pull to be one of the most garbage spells in the game, so I would not pick it up, and I would also probably replace Dessicate with Spirit Bolt until later on.  (Actually, I'd probably respec for the expedition, but that's for another time).

2. Aveline -- doesn't really matter what you do with her, because she's mostly garbage except for one redeeming quality: Improved Shield Bash.  It sets up the best CCC in the game with Chain Lightning and will kill any normal enemy and take off up to 85% of anything else that's not an Assassin.  For Assassins I believe it takes off 70% - 75%.  I had fooled around with the fully upgraded Battle Synergy, but found that with an all ranged team, it just wasn't worth it at all, although Rally isn't too bad, and Unite might be good for the Rock Wraith.  Shield Bash can also hit up to four enemies, you just need to have them lined up, or in a tight ball.  I'm going to experiment with Fenris later just to see how often Staggers happen from auto attacks when combined with Claymore and Battle Tempo, although I don't see him being as good as Aveline for staggers until ACT 2, and especially not on elites or bosses.  I am going to try this next time: biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#2BkriQRIbd1mR0PSw1k

3. Anders -- found the cost for Panacea and the micro needed to use it effectively not worth it at all up until the Rock Wraith.  So I made him pretty much all offense with the upgraded heal. biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#1qiSbhuIANrL  Would pretty much drop most of the Primal spells though for the Expedition and get him his group heal and maybe Crushing Prison or Firestorm.

4. My Varric was a mess.  I basically just upgraded his specialization and Archery trees, but his area of effect spells were mostly garbage and I never saw pinning shot disorient once.  He's a work in progress for me.

Modifié par Graunt, 14 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[TcheQ]

I started Nightmare first go. Chose Mage. No idea what I was doing, no respeccing, chose not to give myself any advantages (did not add black emporium, for example, even though entitled).

The result?

35 hours to get out of Kirkwall (desperately scraping together 50 sovereigns, then discovering i have to finsih some mandatory linear quest sucked, then a mission bugged out on me (Thrask)).
Ancient Rock Lord (or whatever) completely --cked. There is no way my Deep roads team can kill that thing. No one has resistances ( and only one of them has any health, and I'm not going to spend 40 minutes to kill another dragon. Ever.

The Saarebas mission almost made me quit, my team just can't seem to kill people. I don't kite btw - i do take asvatnage of a mob attack pattern, and my mage can solo a few, and I get instkilled by assassins. And now my only good char just got killed in the weakest plot device ever.

SO yeah, turned the difficulty down for Rock Wraith. Looking forward to noobing this up some more.

NIghtmare on DAO was a total cakewalk compared to this. Hell on my 3rd playthrough with 2h warrior, I killedthe Archdemon by myself. Now, a single assassin will kill my entire team....

And I only read today somewhere that the reason my potions were disappearing from my inventory was cos i was getting pickpocketed. greeeeeaat (i thought it was a bug)

SO anyway, my build (from what i can remeber)
2xspirit bolt
1xwalking bomb (which i cam going to try and use more often since the one time it did work ws awesome)
1xfist maker
1xsuper_fortitude (or whatever it's callled, it's awesome for running away from ranged enemies)
1xcold
2xHOrror
2xCrushing prison
I have like 36 magic (+ a worthless full Spiral Eye Outfit)

I know. I'm screwed. I'm sure there's a great way to powerclass but I'll stick with my terribad speccing decisions. Then cry some more later

Modifié par TcheQ, 14 mars 2011 - 11:21 .

[Stammwuerze]

I have tried couple of builds now. My conclusion: mages are really bad.
You run around with close to nothing health and the damage is just meeeh.
The spells are awesome, the feeling is right, just one thing missing: nothing dies.
I have Fenris in my party and he is running havok against anything.
And, it is really easy for an enemy to stagger you, throwing you to the ground until you die -
yeah, that force mage talent will take care of that.

If you are ok with being the sidekick, meaning, playing spirit healer/supporter, mage will
do fine for you. But, seriously, Hawke is supposed to be the jaw dropper, the Champion, not some
cantrip pooping fair show.
I have little to no hope that Bioware will change anything, given that they didn't in the past. So far I am enjoying this game a lot, but I will reroll today to warrior or rogue. I am a hardcore mage player in every game, but it is too frustrating being a damage dealing mage in da2.

[rumination888]

I notice a pattern with people having trouble as a mage... they're all building mages like they would in DA:O, as in, dumping every stat into magic. You need some points in constitution as a mage(or any character), even if you aren't a blood mage.

Constitution does 3 things:

1.) Allows you to survive burst damage.(enemy rogues become nothing more than a nuisance)
2.) Every heal you take heals more health.(healing cooldown won't feel so bad)
3.) The enemy requires more damage or physical force to knock you around.(if you don't add any points into constitution[or the force mage talent], then low ranked enemies will eventually be able to knock you around with just their normal hits)

You rarely hear of warriors having trouble because they're forced to add points into constitution to wear armor. And for those who are thinking, "hey, wait! thats not fair! mages and rogues need to add points into willpower/cunning to wear their armor!", you need to realize that you only need 31 points to wear the best armor. Heck, there's probably enough attribute potions and accessories in the game to reach that score.

Modifié par rumination888, 14 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[DJRedLine]

Only lvl10 at present but have gone mainly Elemental with basic Heal and Force Mage. I currently have -
Mind Blast
Winter's Grasp (updated to Blast)
Fireball (updated to Searing)
Firestorm
PyroMancer
Cone of Cold
Heal
Force Mage
Fist of the Maker

I'm enjoying the spells that i currently have so should i just leave them as it is and start putting points into Chain lightning etc? Or have i gimped myself and should respec?

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...

I notice a pattern with people having trouble as a mage... they're all building mages like they would in DA:O, as in, dumping every stat into magic. You need some points in constitution as a mage(or any character), even if you aren't a blood mage.

Constitution does 3 things:

1.) Allows you to survive burst damage.(enemy rogues become nothing more than a nuisance)
2.) Every heal you take heals more health.(healing cooldown won't feel so bad)
3.) The enemy requires more damage or physical force to knock you around.(if you don't add any points into constitution[or the force mage talent], then low ranked enemies will eventually be able to knock you around with just their normal hits)

You rarely hear of warriors having trouble because they're forced to add points into constitution to wear armor. And for those who are thinking, "hey, wait! thats not fair! mages and rogues need to add points into willpower/cunning to wear their armor!", you need to realize that you only need 31 points to wear the best armor. Heck, there's probably enough attribute potions and accessories in the game to reach that score.

I'm going to try going 2 MAG and alternate 1 WIL/1CON every other level and see how that works out.  I'm sure it will help slightly with non Assassin survivability and does make healing spells more efficient (as well as potions), but this also means you can't run more than a single sustainable usually (without more +mana gear) and you may struggle on boss fights unless you bring a lot of extra mana potions.  I had planned on upping CON eventually anyway simply because there's no point in going beyond the max needed WIL, but I'm not sure how great it will be in the 1-10 level since your mana pool is really low at that point.

It's similar to how I'm going to have Aveline go 2 CON each level and alternate 1 WIL and 1 STR

Modifié par Graunt, 14 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[NightfallAU]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Your party may be "annihilating" everything in NM (which I doubt) but I know your mage is not annihliating everything. I am playing a primal-force mage in NM. Chain Lightining is ok but tempest is weak.  and stonefist does ony single target damage. So your mage is not contributing that much to party damage. Your two handed warrior (they are gods) and Isabella with her "I backstab everything with one skill" are doing the damage eh?

Chain Lightning combos extremely well with a 2H tank, it's one of the best damage spells when used in this way.
Stonefist is a decent base damage spell, but it really shines when your focus killing an enemy mage; they can't cast heal or chug potions as they fly through the air from the huge knockback.
Upgraded Tempest is great not because it does awesome damage, it's great because it interrupts enemy archers and does okay damage.
Petrify gives you decent basic CC, but yeah, I don't use it enough to justify upgrading it.

[maegi46]

People stop min maxing everything and just play the damn game. If someone elses build intrigues you and you want to try it, by all means give it a shot. Respec potion or reroll. Any build CAN work, some work better than others for sure. This isn't DA:O it's DA 2. Don't be afraid to experiment and then come back and let people know what did or didn't work.

[Ignoble Fat Man]

FYI using Petrify + Archer's lance with a mage archer combo is simply ridiculous. It seems simply over powered, but it is so fun. I haven't tried using the staggered Chained lightning to much but I am sure it is as much gory fun as any other combo.

[Graunt]

m14567 wrote...

Unless you are good at micro, pumping con seems critical for early levels. If you pick up force mage and unshakeable you can respec some of those points out of con back into will or you can go blood mage and make use of it.

It's pretty easy to micro when you already know the fights, and even when you don't, you can always run away and regroup.  On my new game I'm level 8 so far and haven't come close to dying once, nor have I had to use a health potion yet other than on Aveline once or twice. 0 in CON either on my Mages, but I'm about to respec them since I just had not yet.  Anders could definitely use the health.

People stop min maxing everything and just play the damn game. If someone elses build intrigues you and you want to try it, by all means give it a shot. Respec potion or reroll. Any build CAN work, some work better than others for sure. This isn't DA:O it's DA 2. Don't be afraid to experiment and then come back and let people know what did or didn't work.

The problem is that Nightmare doesn't allow you the luxury of freedom.  Some builds make it significantly harder than it should be, while others almost trivialize most of it.  For any difficulty below that though...go nuts.

Oh, and for the early levels, Assassins and Mages are lulz to destroy when you have Stone Fist + Mighty Blow + Shield Bash.  When I did the Family quest at level 5 or so it was a complete and utter joke.

Modifié par Graunt, 14 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[Graunt]

m14567 wrote...

Graunt wrote...
...

It's pretty easy to micro when you already know the fights, and even when you don't, you can always run away and regroup.  On my new game I'm level 8 so far and haven't come close to dying once, nor have I had to use a health potion yet other than on Aveline once or twice.

Yeah, for me, most fights on nightmare start with me running away.  I also always have Aveline and Varric in my party to handle stray aggro but it has been mostly manageable. I found the fight with Captain Qerth to be hard going for my mage.

It was hard for me too until I replaced Varric and simply blew him (or her?) up really quickly by bringing Merril in.  Simply double Tempest the main room where the boss is at, run to the stair to the left or right while taking out the two or three archers on the way, Gravitic the floor to prevent the door spawns from reaching you, use Merril's hex and then blow the boss up.  I didn't even have Tempest on Merril either, just Anders and Hawke, so a third would just make this fight laughable.

Then just run upstairs and finish the adds off.  Also did that fight with just the 80% heal, although no doubt having Anders' group heal would make it significantly easier. It pretty much revolved around Gravitic though, so I didn't do this until level 10.  Didn't even know about it until I was running around High Town trying to get extra coin and experience killing the night life.

Modifié par Graunt, 14 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[Bachmors]

Hm, I thought strength adds to fortitude? Constitution just adds health to my knowledge.

[Graunt]

Bachmors wrote...

Hm, I thought strength adds to fortitude? Constitution just adds health to my knowledge.

Right, but the way the effects trigger in the game is if an attack or spell does X% of your total health.

[Siven80]

Take it for what you will but the offical guide states regarding attributes:

"There is a sweet spot for levelling up that makes most efficient use of the attribute point spent. To maintain an optimal value, you need to invest roughly 1.25 points per level (5pts every 4 levels) in your primary attribute for attack, and 1 point into cunning per level for optimal defense. The effect on derived attributes - such as attack, defense, damage and armor - is that a small investment sees little return, but ramps up quickly as you approach the optimal value for that level.
Attribute points above that optimal value will still increase the characters power but will give diminishing returns in effectiveness."

While im only playing on normal, this approach was worked well for me. Warriors are going 1 str, 1 cun, 1 con per level but every 4th level i place 2 in Str and 1 cun.
Mages in going 1 magic, 1 will, 1 cun (2 magic, 1 cun every 4th). I prefer defense to con for mages. Rather not be hit than hit and soak thru con.
Rogue is 1 dex, 1 cun, 1 will though will drop will often to make sure i have enough cunning to lockpick, while also dropping the will every 4th for 2 dex.

[Graunt]

Siven80 wrote...

Take it for what you will but the offical guide states regarding attributes:

"There is a sweet spot for levelling up that makes most efficient use of the attribute point spent. To maintain an optimal value, you need to invest roughly 1.25 points per level (5pts every 4 levels) in your primary attribute for attack, and 1 point into cunning per level for optimal defense. The effect on derived attributes - such as attack, defense, damage and armor - is that a small investment sees little return, but ramps up quickly as you approach the optimal value for that level.
Attribute points above that optimal value will still increase the characters power but will give diminishing returns in effectiveness."

While im only playing on normal, this approach was worked well for me. Warriors are going 1 str, 1 cun, 1 con per level but every 4th level i place 2 in Str and 1 cun.
Mages in going 1 magic, 1 will, 1 cun (2 magic, 1 cun every 4th). I prefer defense to con for mages. Rather not be hit than hit and soak thru con.
Rogue is 1 dex, 1 cun, 1 will though will drop will often to make sure i have enough cunning to lockpick, while also dropping the will every 4th for 2 dex.

Yeah, I have the guide too, and it gets a B- for useful statistical information.  If you want anything remotely technical, that's the last place to look.  I don't use CUN on Warriors and Mages, it's simply not worth it...ever.  The irony is, it's great on Rogues for damage, but it also means you can completely skimp on CON for the most part -- Assassins and giant room clearing AOE notwithstanding.

Modifié par Graunt, 14 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[rumination888]

Siven80 wrote...

While im only playing on normal, this approach was worked well for me. Warriors are going 1 str, 1 cun, 1 con per level but every 4th level i place 2 in Str and 1 cun.
Mages in going 1 magic, 1 will, 1 cun (2 magic, 1 cun every 4th). I prefer defense to con for mages. Rather not be hit than hit and soak thru con.
Rogue is 1 dex, 1 cun, 1 will though will drop will often to make sure i have enough cunning to lockpick, while also dropping the will every 4th for 2 dex.

At 1 cun per level, elites and bosses equal to your level will still have a 95% chance of hitting you.
Increasing cunning for the purpose of defense just isn't very useful except on certain builds(duelist rogues, or a very specialized turn the blade + battle synergy + arcane shield + heroic aura party build).

There is another thread with comments about who the worst party member is and Isabela's name comes up often because she dies a lot. There's a reason for that... despite what people may think, cunning is awful at increasing survivability.

[Killjoy Cutter]

On the subject of mages, it seems that there's a lot less choice in how to build mages, so that they all end up feeling the same. There are fewer actual spells, and in each "tree" the high-level spells/abilities so often require two or more "paths" to be bought, and a minimum number that's high enough to include upgrades -- so in the end, you have a lot less choice in how you build than you did in DA:O's linear system.

[Killjoy Cutter]

rumination888 wrote...
At 1 cun per level, elites and bosses equal to your level will still have a 95% chance of hitting you.
Increasing cunning for the purpose of defense just isn't very useful except on certain builds(duelist rogues, or a very specialized turn the blade + battle synergy + arcane shield + heroic aura party build).

There is another thread with comments about who the worst party member is and Isabela's name comes up often because she dies a lot. There's a reason for that... despite what people may think, cunning is awful at increasing survivability.

Based on what I've seen in the game, it looks like Cunning-based Defense tops out at 5% for non-rogues.   Is this actually the case?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Stammwuerze wrote...

I have tried couple of builds now. My conclusion: mages are really bad.
You run around with close to nothing health and the damage is just meeeh.
The spells are awesome, the feeling is right, just one thing missing: nothing dies.
I have Fenris in my party and he is running havok against anything.
And, it is really easy for an enemy to stagger you, throwing you to the ground until you die -
yeah, that force mage talent will take care of that.

If you are ok with being the sidekick, meaning, playing spirit healer/supporter, mage will
do fine for you. But, seriously, Hawke is supposed to be the jaw dropper, the Champion, not some
cantrip pooping fair show.
I have little to no hope that Bioware will change anything, given that they didn't in the past. So far I am enjoying this game a lot, but I will reroll today to warrior or rogue. I am a hardcore mage player in every game, but it is too frustrating being a damage dealing mage in da2.

Huh -- my mages seem to tear things apart very adeptly, to the point that I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to ever play an archer (I refuse to play the Holywood Ninja SFX wackjob that this game calls a "melee rogue) and get the party build I want.