167 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Overlander: Asari - hanar ... No, let's not go there.

[Oooh shiny]

This thread was some epic lulz.

[Overlander]

@Reorte: Actually, race you to it. The hanar are a possibility, but not the strongest one, due to the hangups the hanar hold regarding propriety and decorum. Considering that the hanar don't let those not extraordinarily close to them know their soul name, would you honestly think intimacy of that nature would be an easy subject to breach?

Drell: Too recent; only part of Council through the hanar, and only present as such for a couple centuries.

Quarian: Possible but unlikely. Structure of society before Migrant Fleet largely unknown, and afterward, either numbers too sparse (pilgrims) or encounters too infrequent (Fleet in nigh-constant motion).

Elcor: Communication problems. While asari can communicate via meld, not commonly used as such. For a fun parallel: similar reasons why mail-order marriages don't last.

Volus: Now THIS one, we shouldn't have gone there. *shudder* Oh well. Too late now. Serious answer: Actually, one of the better likelihoods, considering the extent that they've been a Council race, but it still seems a bit off. Considering the mercenary modus operandi of the average volus, it seems an ill fit for the centrist asari. (Translation: what's in it for the volus?) Quasi-serious answer: Ladies, take one look at the volus. Any one of them, take your pick. Now, look me in the eye and tell me honestly that THAT can excite you in that fashion. I dare you.

Vorcha:...Are you kidding me?...Just....no.

Modifié par Overlander, 23 décembre 2011 - 11:35 .

[CARL_DF90]

Don't forget the Krogan and Turian options. Ah, Turian romances. We have dismissed that claim. Wait, what?

[Reorte]

Overlander wrote...

@Reorte: Actually, race you to it. The hanar are a possibility, but not the strongest one, due to the hangups the hanar hold regarding propriety and decorum. Considering that the hanar don't let those not extraordinarily close to them know their soul name, would you honestly think intimacy of that nature would be an easy subject to breach?

It was just a joke reference to something mentioned in the game.

[Overlander]

@Reorte: Understood, and after some review, I get it. I just thought it was a good opening to cover some of the lesser-represented races that I ignored on the prior post.

[Drunken_Soviet]

What about the Elcor?

[xbeton0L]

I kind of had an epiphany while reading along, where Shepard randomly runs into a prospect while attempting to build his team, only to find out this person is someone... something never seen before. A large guy, silky blue skin, and a gun pointed right at Shepard's team - mistrusting at first, however through selective dialogue you earn his trusting approval to join your endeavors. Or not. Sort of like meeting Zaeed, and not really knowing what to expect of this guy, you come to discover his existence is evidence of a secret kept under wraps by the asari race for thousands of years, and that living for hundreds of years in exile he managed to settle discreetly on a planet which is indifferent to asari political affairs - where he prefers his life of silence, but also a life where he is accepted.

And then the whole breakdown on how he's an actual asari, the science behind him, and why the asari resent males. A potential scenario, no less at best!

Edit:

I actually didn't make it to the wall of text before posting this. It seems that we are taking on the first-person perspective of our prospective male asari? A profile build is a pretty good idea and there's lots of room to develop good personality traits, and with variance, although I initially thought of this asari to follow along the older ancestral and biological asari anthropology, where males were once concieved naturally however rare and uncommon, and through political strains have been made even more uncommon by modern-day asari mating rituals.

Regardless, I am still eager to hear what you say.

Modifié par xbeton0L, 30 décembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[CARL_DF90]

Hmm....it's a good idea. I like really it. Would be make for a rather good scenario in the ME universe too. Maybe Bioware should be taking notes from here. That would be great!

[Sturmwulfe]

Just my two cents, and I'm enjoying Highlander's theory because it makes a decent amount of sense from a anthropological and biological standpoint.

I do think asari probably have very similar sex organs to humans, since the asari partner in a relationship would have to carry and develop the child, and it has to come out somehow (obviously they put it into a mass effect field envelope and shoot it out), so unless they have to do C-sections every time there's a pregnacy, I'm pretty sure the lower regions wouldn't be too much of a shock if you saw them. Plus, most mammals on earth (I am loosely putting marsupials in here, too) give birth to live young, so they're not too different from humans. Wouldn't be hard to imagine a lot of aliens carrying that aspect too, like how almost all the aliens in mass effect have heads and are bipedial, it's a huge evolutionary advantage that is extremely likely to crop up all over the place. If I remember right, when asari join with each other (or other species), isn't it more of a mental bond and a connection of nervous systems telepathically? I can see that being that the father of the pair sends signals to the female which tells her body to release chemicals to start developing a child, which the male provides half of the genetic sequence that will be written as the child is formed. I'm not an expert in biology, and certainly not alien biology in a fictional universe, but I'm thinking that's pretty close to how it would work for asari. I don't think sperm would even do anything, since there would have been literally no reason to evolve to have that cause conception if asari always 'melded'. But because they have generally the same lower female anatomy as humans, they can still have sex the way everyone else does it, probably just not to any reproductive purpose without melding minds. I mean, for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years they only existed on their homeworld without contact with alien species, how would their bodies develop the need for that kind of reproduction? On a lighter note, I imagine if Liara didn't have the goods, Shepard would have had a very awkward sex scene with her. If there's one thing human men have asked since time immortal, it's been "where can I put it?"

Also, I imagine asari had a bit of surprise when they first started to mate with aliens. "By the maker, what is THAT?"

[xbeton0L]

Making it work from a logical standpoint is the root of all science-fiction. If it makes sense, the more it 'relates' to our current understandings of what "could be".

@Sturmwulfe If I may, scientists call this falcultative parthenogenesis - which is when a naturally sexual female begins to reproduce asexually, usually when exposed to highly unnatural circumstances.

Oh man, and where do I begin with what isn't supposedly 'natural' in mass effect? Whoo! Plenty of reason there to see how the asari came to be asexually reproductive. Which would further underline the explanation of their effeminate shape and biology.

Also, we can play some knockback with this one, as somehow other species perceive them as both masculine and feminine, however they are ultimately feminine. And they must be so, because all of them are capable of birthing a child. Like the whiptail lizard, they assume both roles of their sexes depending on whether they are currently ovulating or are already fertilized. Thus defeating, in one way or another, the concept that all asari share equalized traits that would span the spectrum of two sexes, when biologically they are at best emulating the role of what would-be their male counterparts.

Lets say element zero had something to do with their unnatural habitat, and severely affected the birthrate of male asari. It may have allowed them to adapt enough to asexually reproduce due to the lack of male numbers. It's a rare, but an actual phenomenon that happens with reptiles.

Ok, so on to figuring out how pure-blooded female asari are actually capable of giving birth to male asari. Lets say they've adopted the genetic map of earth-based reptiles, lacking much of the similarities of course, but utilizing their ZZ (male), ZW(female) and WW (female) sex chromosomes. Due to some other reason, females carrying the ZW genes began to decrease in number as females with WW genes became the more popular and now dominant gene carriers, thus reducing the chances of giving birth to a male. And for the sake of ill-gotten chance, there's an abundance of asari women with recessive "Z" genes, hereby noted as small 'z'.


Now here is the interesting part, when a zW female and, say a WW female (or another zW) create a child, however with an 'active' Z chromosome (i have yet to decipher this one, possibly a gene mutation) they are considered ardakt-yashi.

These ardakt-yashi are actually purer in blood than common asari because their genetics are closer to the nature of a full-blooded asari, which would be capable of giving birth (better chance) to a male asari, although not full-blooded themselves. Say through several generations of ardakt-yashi successively reproducing, suffice it to say they do not kill each other, they will eventually give birth to a more genetically balanced (speculatively less-lethal/unstable) child, which would be better suited for giving birth naturally although being half-blooded themselves.


As much as I would love to have a direct, high-speed connection to asari ancestry and pure, untouched asari genetics, i think the less conventional route will prove more challenging, if not it already presents more to explore and uncover.


Aagh... I need more time to think. I wrote this at work.

[Knubbsal]

Mono-gendered means they're neither male nor female... Asking what a male would look like is irrelevant as there are no female Asari either.
Apart from that, it is likely they have an organ to grow and give birth to their offspring; apparently, not used for intercourse as it is with humans. So there you go: you might as well put it in an Elcors ear.

[Reorte]

Knubbsal: No, to me all that means is that they are monogendered and the only gender is female. Whether or not there were any males in the asari past (if they were then IMO it's more likely that they weren't really asari but an older species that evolved into the asari) is therefore still worth discussing. As far as I can tell the asari have most of what's required to fulfill the definition of 'female'.

[Knubbsal]

Reorte wrote...
As far as I can tell the asari have most of what's required to fulfill the definition of 'female'.

Which is exactly what's wrong with all these posts. You're describing an Asari with human standards. They are not female and they are not human; their characteristics are female from a human point of view. That is probably most that anyone can say about it until the creators come with more information.

Then again you are of course free to speculate... As a counter speculation on that part: what good would a 'male' asari do, as they do not mate like humans. There is no reason for the existance of anything with a third leg as that third leg is not used. What else would you describe as 'male'?
It also does not sound logical that they 'evolved' out of needing males and females for offspring and then turned into a mono-gendered spiecies. It sounds more likely that the race Asari evolved from a species that also had one gender. It's just not right to compare them with humans.

Modifié par Knubbsal, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:42 .

[Reorte]

No, not from a human perspective, from the point of view of all life (admittedly that's Earth-based life, but the odds of something else out there really looking as similar to humans as the asari do must be pretty slim). They ARE female - what about them isn't? The comparison is a valid as saying that they've got arms, legs, hands, eyes etc.

The point about evolution was, of course, speculation, although having any two members of a species being able to reproduce together would seem to me to be an advantage that could evolve. It was merely meant to point out that if there ever was something that is (or is close to) an asari male that's the most likely place for them, not as a possibility for the current asari.

I'd argue that a monogendered species either has to be female or entirely asexual, and we've not got the latter since asari children aren't clones of their mother.

[Overlander]

@Knubbsal: You asked what good a 'male' asari would do, as the asari don't need a male for reproduction. To that, I posit this notion: who said the male asari needed to have ANYTHING to do with reproduction? If I may offer a parallel, consider worker bees. Fully capable of defense of the hive, and essential for making a hive run smoothly, yet have nothing directly to do with the reproductive process.
One thing that has only been glossed over in this forum is what a male asari could do in comparison to a typical asari. One of my hypotheses regarding their power is similar in nature to an ardat-yakshi (augmented biotic ability, capacity to enthrall others, etc.). Take those abilities and apply them to a more primitive version of asari society. Can you see no possible use for any of them?

A bit more food for thought, on an unrelated note: I also offer for consideration the idea that population density could be a triggering effect for the birth of males, should they have occurred naturally. With a sizeable enough population, the birth of a male might have a unifying effect, whereas otherwise, a dense enough population might become divisive. Remember, the asari lean toward centrist viewpoints, indicating a long-standing precedent with that mindset. Like I said, just a thought.

[CARL_DF90]

A very valid and logical thought as well. Oh, and to those who would debate whether or not the Asari would fit a female paradigm, get a clue. Unless I have missed something REALLY important the one in life that carries chiildren till birth (or hatched, depanding on species) is a female role, and since the modern day Asari are monogendered, all one has to do is put one and one together. Like Overlander and others have said, a "male" Asari would either be A) a mutation, or a primitive evolutionary throwback. I'd opt for both. Still, I pose this question: what if an Asari scientist saw her species dependancy on alien genetics as a weekness for the species and would try to correct that by introducing a genetically engineered "male", thereby creating the genetic diversity needed to carry the species forward without exclusive need of alien DNA. And let us not forget, when two Asari have a child they run the risk of birthing an Ardat-Yakshi, which I still believe was evolution's way of keeping Asari numbers in check given their long life spans. Without SOME type of population control the Asari would have died out from overpopulation and lack of resources to sustain said population before they had a chance to take to the stars. Food for thought for those who didn't go through past posts in this thread.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 03 janvier 2012 - 05:26 .

[xbeton0L]

Knubbsal wrote...

Reorte wrote...
As far as I can tell the asari have most of what's required to fulfill the definition of 'female'.

Which is exactly what's wrong with all these posts. You're describing an Asari with human standards. They are not female and they are not human; their characteristics are female from a human point of view. That is probably most that anyone can say about it until the creators come with more information.

Then again you are of course free to speculate... As a counter speculation on that part: what good would a 'male' asari do, as they do not mate like humans. There is no reason for the existance of anything with a third leg as that third leg is not used. What else would you describe as 'male'?
It also does not sound logical that they 'evolved' out of needing males and females for offspring and then turned into a mono-gendered spiecies. It sounds more likely that the race Asari evolved from a species that also had one gender. It's just not right to compare them with humans.

Thinking of the evolution of the reproductive system, factoring with evolution of course, DNA seems to seek the greatest genetic diversity regardless of species, i believe so that the organism can withstand the unpredictability of its environment. If the asari are known for using parthenogenesis for reproduction, there is an adamant lack of genetic diversity, sufficient to say it would ultimately hinder their ability to adapt.

I strongly use the whiptail lizard for an example, as it's the most common example we have of the asari. Two different species of whiptail can naturally hybridize, generating a lineage of asexual female lizards. As these hybrids produce children, they do not change much from the original parent of the lineage, regardless of what generation or how many siblings. They're pretty much clones of the parent.

Even if the asari did use each other for parthenogenesis-melding, their genetic diversity would be severely hindered as their ' DNA remapping' ability would serve very little purpose for providing genetic diversity with other asari, for the sake of survival. Unless there were many different types of asari-species, all of them contributing some form of genetic diversity (of which the purpose of the function of DNA remapping was first needed, i am sure) there would need to be some form of diverse medium. Also, while thinking of how genes are randomized however knowing that you cannot simply randomize genes and expect to create perfect offspring, this would have to be a fault in the birthrate-success of asari and perhaps an offset to balance-out the lifespan of such.

@Overlander
Since when have thoughts been dangerous? Lol, I believe I am content with any and all speculations regardless of the subject. Males should definitely have been present in asari history, even if our human 'perception' is wrong (which is almost like giving the "it is how it is because God made it like that" answer) as asexual reproduction is beneficial mostly to simple organisms or organisms with both genders and capable of self-fertilization. Parthenogenesis, particlularly Falculative parthenogenesis, came about so that within the lifespan of an organism its genetic information can be passed on without risk of being lost. In the case of hybrid lizards, since they have no male counterparts, and cannot reproduce sexually (by either host species) their bodies adapted to allow their genes to pass on without the need for males. It's only logical to deduct this hypothesis.

It seems we are somewhat biased towards preserving the information given by Bioware versus free speculation. I can understand the viewpoint of a mono-gendered species, however by ALL of them being capable of "giving birth" <-e.g. carrying a child, and perhaps even capable of "nursing" <-producing susteinance from their bodies for their young; by our current standards of nature, "we" consider these to be feminine, thus concluding that all asari are hencefourth 'female'.

Also, becoming falculatively parthenogenic is NOT evolution. It is a physical gender change that occurs ONLY when females of a certain species can't find a male to mate with. Therefore, their bodies biologically adjust and begin to fertilize themselves. They are perfectly capable of reverting back to being "normal" females when their male population returns.

@CARL_DF90
Don't worry dude, I already got ya.

Essentially what defines a 'male' here would be the one in a sexual relationship to initiate the fertilization process, and if such a person happens to be asari then the females would essentially stop being asexual. It happens like that. In nature. Lol

I like the idea of a genetically created one, although it leaves an emptiness regarding 'him' as a true asari - or even a true person for that matter. Almost like Grunt. I've always felt the disconnection knowing that he was borne of genes in a nutrient tank, so it's almost like looking at a ghost of a person. If that makes sense.

Modifié par xbeton0L, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:21 .

[Sturmwulfe]

I don't really have anything to add at this point, but I do want to say that I'm really enjoying this discussion and it's nice to see people who have a very solid education on the matter throwing ideas that could make the asari plausible. I'll keep on reading, just to see what comes up. xbetonoL, thanks for taking time to explain that, I was actually thinking along the lines of chromosomes as well, since using humans again as an example, we're all technically female until the fetus gets a y chromosome. I didn't, however, even begin to think that chromosomes and parents would actually be a logical explanation for the whole ardakt-yashi thing.

I wonder if the asari had that issue before becoming a part of the galactic community and mating with other species, or if it's always been an issue until they found out that by mating with other species, it doesn't occur in the offspring.

CARL also brings up a good point about the asari life-expectancy. Nature always has a way to keep population numbers in check so they don't overshoot the carrying capacity of their area. The Earth's is estimated about 10 billion people, and we're already straining the Earth's resources at 7 billion. One of the things that kept our population numbers in check up until the late 1800s to now is a moderate life-expectancy, people didn't last long and infant mortality rates and child deaths were quite high for a very long time. But with modern medicine, people are living longer, children tend to survive childhood in developed countries, families are becoming rather large. In the past 100 years, the population has skyrocketed, and people are only expected to live about 70-80 years. Imagine the 125 that humans live to in Mass Effect? There would have to be something that kept the asari from overwhelming their home world. Could be part of the reason males, if there were any, aren't around anymore.

I need sleep.

EDIT: I wrote million instead of billion, lulz.

Modifié par Sturmwulfe, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:32 .

[xbeton0L]

@Sturmwulfe
WOW, valid point! At first I thought it was something to do with element zero affecting their males, but if memory serves me right, I think I ran across an article about a species of frogs which change gender depending on the total number of the population - which in turn regulates the total remaining population. It would make perfect sense if that were applied to asari ecology, and their advancements in technology prevent them from giving birth to males. This would of course be an addendum to the low birthing-rate via DNA scrambling proxy (which might I add is actually a counterproductive mechanism that would hinder asari evolution).

And I think the earth's population is closer to about 7 billion with about 10 billion max. I once heard somewhere that our earth could comfortably maintain only 500 million people, as a solution for world peace. This is of course gauging from information that aliens told us. The ones that built the monoliths. The one's that chopped off the top of a mountain with absurd precision. And the ones that told people to build the pyramids, among other world wonders. Not exactly my words, but I pick up on things.

But who knows, maybe when the planet reaches it's 10 billion person max, something similar could very well happen to humans. Definitely not promising that, but it could happen.

[Sturmwulfe]

I had this decent sized reply typed up, and then my computer froze. Gah!

I was just reading the codex on the asari homeworld, Thessia, and apparently it's one of the most element zero rich planets in the galaxy. This in turn causes an eezo-rich environment, which causes a large percentage of wildlife to have biotic abilities or potential. It's possible the asari never had a need for a male species, since melding could have always been a feature of their species, and even ancestors.

I also meant to write billion instead of million, I was tired and not thinking all the way through. If it was 10 million, I think we'd have passed that quite a few centuries ago! I think 500 million sounds a bit low, especially applied across the planet. I think world peace has more to do with the average person having high quality of life and equal opportunities for life chances more so than how many people there are. I mean, look at first world countries. Not long ago a lot of them had been rivals and enemies since their civilizations began, and now everyone seems to have a good relationship with one another and benefit more from trade and cultural exchange instead of war. That's a different topic for another day though. Also I'm not going to speculate if aliens told ancient humans how and what to build, but if they did tell people to make pyramids, that was kind of a jerk move. Talk about a prime example of wasteful excess and manpower.

If the carrying capacity reaches 10 billion, there's really good chance that we'll start seeing signs of massive die offs caused by either freak storms and floods caused by a warmer climate, starvation due to lack of food availability, a reduced access to water, war over resources, et cetera. A prime example of carrying capacity and balancing populations comes from the snow lynx and rabbit populations in Canada. When the rabbits shoot over their carrying capacity and thus the ecosystem's ability to support their numbers, the lynx populations rise as well due to the over abundance of food, and eventually die off because of the lack of food since they brought down the rabbit population. The numbers are kept in check for a while. Now, put this on a global scale and with different factors, and we'll very likely find a similar scenario. It's not like we haven't experienced and survived massive disasters that killed off huge numbers of people in the past over the world.

In summary, element zero is affecting the asari population, and always has been, but I don't think they ever had a reason to have males to begin with. I don't think they'd have to artificially alter their birth rates with technology, or DNA scrambling proxies, since asari can breed regardless and not all children born from two asari parents end up being ardakt-yashi.

[xbeton0L]

@Sturmwulfe
And hence we have your classic super-race, totally powerful and lives 10 times as long as the average organism! #LOL

Just some humor there, but your point is valid enough to say such. However, exploring the plausibility, and just such plausibility of the chance that males were indeed part of their species I want us to speculate.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with what you said because it could very well be that eezo-contaminated environments remove the necessity for males to exist, however I'm trying to rule out some impartial benefactor from eezo to balance the 'superness' of the asari. From it being a relatively new part of asari evolution, meaning recently introduced to their planet and habitats versus having always been there, thus affecting what would-be male asari. Or via prosperity of the asari race reducing male numbers, although infused eezo allows enough stimuli through the nervous system to begin self-fertilization <- addendum: although males would pretty much be exempt from this rule, as they would lack the ability to carry a child.

Now, to say that melding would rule out the need for an external fertilizer, eg. a male, this could be true. It also could be that such an eezo-rich environment allowed for an advanced nervous system, which would include the development of the ability to meld or other psychiatric-psychological abilities such as telepathy, however I'm just not buying that eezo is enough to create an advanced reproductive system.

Parthenogenesis is one thing, and melding a completely different process. Perhaps an asari male and female engaging in sexual reproduction would be something akin to how Na'vi from the movie Avatar use their ponytails to 'link', or in other words 'meld' like asari, whilst still using their sexual organs to finalize the deal. Perhaps nervous stimulation has always been required by asari females in order to begin the fertilization process, which is why it only occurs when they meld with someone to produce a child.

On a side note, it actually compliments the psychology of a woman, as the majority of sexual stimulation is mental anyway. The same rule applies to men, but to a lesser extent. All the woman needs is to be attractive enough, and it's more than enough for us to go primal. Lol

[Eclipse_9990]

There are no male Asari, there are no female Asari either. There are just.. Asari.

[Reorte]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

There are no male Asari, there are no female Asari either. There are just.. Asari.

So is it best to say "he" , "she", or "it"? As mentioned upthread they fulfill most of the criteria for being female as opposed to asexual. Even if the term isn't 100% accurate (and I'd disagree with that) it's still the most appropriate description available in English.

[xbeton0L]

@Reorte
And at times we tend to overthink it. As if there were another way to explain it in a non-human language, you know?

@Eclipse_9990
That isn't the purpose of this thread. And just like Reorte said, by definition in reference to their current biological makeup, they are considered female. Particularly because they are capable of carrying child. If you care to read the thread now, you may learn we are addressing something different. Just a thought.