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[MortalEngines]

Mustang678 wrote...

I took Anders with me. He made an extreme move that I didn't approve of but we still needed him for the war to come, and I consider the Chantry's evils on the mages to still be greater

But this is thing, how many of the Chantry directly oppress the mages. The templars act under the Knight Commanders, who generally only listen to the Divine most of the time, the Grand Cleric, the Lay Sisters, the priests. Many of them feel sorry for mages but don't have the power to change anything, yet mages have no trouble killing them.

Just like the Templars have no trouble killing mages who may have dabble with blood magic or associated with someone who has.

TJPags wrote...
Exactly.

I kept hearing these rumors, I kept looking for confirmation, and other than Alrik, I found none.

I asked other Templars - including Cullen - about Alrik and the so-called Tranquil Solution and was told there was no such thing.  That Alrik was acting on his own.  I asked the Grand Cleric about the Tranquil Solution - she told me it was something that was suggested, and soundly rejected.

I really get the agitator vibe from Anders, got it early, and it really only grew every time I could find no evidence of this rumored abuse, and it got worse every time I ran into more groups of insane blood-mages.

Please, where is the evidence of this abuse?  I really wanted to find it - and still do!!!

I spared Anders to keep my character consistant but I plan to kill him next time for certain, and I'll be watching him much more closely to see his actions. He was definately plotting something from a long time ago, I would say towards the end of Act 2 he had made up his mind about what he wanted to do.

I mean, Anders has a very strong sense of Justice/Vengence by Act 3 because he and justice have finally become one. And seeing how Vengence was willing to kill that mage girl because it was 'Justice' I can't see how anyone can defend Ander's 'Justice'.

He was manipulating Hawke in Act 2 and 3, I just know it.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 13 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that templars and mages were conspiring to overthrow Meredith, I doubt Anders concerns were imaginary. There was indeed a Templar Solution proposed, so why do you think there was no such thing when a templar was clearly pushing for it? Alrik wasn't alone when I was fighting him, so other templars were involved in the abuses, not just one. Meredith was also getting out of control. Even Meredith's own templars wanted to see her removed from her position as Knight-Commander.

I didn't say there was no such thing as a Templar Solution.  I said it wasn't in effect.  Something proposed and rejected is completely meaningless.

Alrik had, what, 2 people with him?  Hardly the entire templar order.

Meredith was insane, I grant that.  Yet there were indeed blood mages running amok all over Kirkwall.  Even so, removing her would be fine - blowing up a building filled with innocent people instead was, well, despicable.

[AlexXIV]

We can't say if any of this happened or not because of Hawke. Varric's brother wasn't doing the expedition because of Hawke, actually he didn't want her to be part of it at first. And Varric was the one who gave the hint with Anders, so he could even have asked him for the maps without Hawke.

The Qunari could probably have been killed without Hawke, she just was a bit faster than Meredith to harvest the credit for it and become 'champion'. We don't even know if the Orsino-abomination would have killed Meredith or she it. Obviously it was Hawke who did it in any case.

So if Hawke is/was the most important person of Thedas, then it didn't show in DA2 yet. Right now I think the Warden is the bigger hero still. Champion of Redcliffe, Hero of Ferelden, saviour of Amaranthine. Nothing Hawke did was even close as impressive. I am even really disappointed at how they did the Qunari uprise. I never even had the feeling the Qunari could win. If the templars were all beaten and Hawke had led the last desperate attack of Kirkwall's citizens with pitchforks and shovels or whatever, then ok. But Hawke 'merely' won a duel and she was just a few minutes before Meredith and her templars came in.

So all in all I didn't see more 'rise to power' or more politics or whatever in DA2 than in DA:O. Pretty much disappointing.

[AdrianC25]

Anders is as important as Ben Laden, they both took down a tower to make a point. If anything Anders solidifies the fact that abominations , either with a Demon or a "Spirit" are a dangerous unstable problem.

[AlexXIV]

AdrianC25 wrote...

Anders is as important as Ben Laden, they both took down a tower to make a point. If anything Anders solidifies the fact that abominations , either with a Demon or a "Spirit" are a dangerous unstable problem.

He gave Meredith the excuse to invoke the right of annulment. Without that there was a chance for a peaceful solution. But Anders wasn't interested in peace, he was only interested in starting a war, which he did. What Hawke did was at best saving Kirkwall. Hawke could neither cause nor prevent the war. That was Anders.

If you think about it. Canonically the Hero of Ferelden saved Anders from the templars and made him a Grey Warden. So even my Warden had a bigger role in DA2 than Hawke ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[TJPags]

AdrianC25 wrote...

Anders is as important as Ben Laden, they both took down a tower to make a point. If anything Anders solidifies the fact that abominations , either with a Demon or a "Spirit" are a dangerous unstable problem.

Although I think there are comparisons to Bin Laden, it's a touchy issue.  Might be wise to avoid it as much as possible.

[LobselVith8]

AdrianC25, maybe you can keep the inaccurate comparisons out of this thread? Anders isn't a religious fanatic, he wanted to free his people from slavery. He felt there shouldn't be concessions when it comes to freedom. He's an abolitionist.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

AdrianC25 wrote...

Anders is as important as Ben Laden, they both took down a tower to make a point. If anything Anders solidifies the fact that abominations , either with a Demon or a "Spirit" are a dangerous unstable problem.

Although I think there are comparisons to Bin Laden, it's a touchy issue.  Might be wise to avoid it as much as possible.

Well what Anders did was nothing more or less than an act of terrorism. He might have had good intentions or whatever, but if you act like this you don't need to expect respect from any honorable person.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags, there are no valid comparisons with that analogy. Anders is trying to put an end to slavery, not using religion for malevolent purposes. Whether you think he was right or wrong, that was his goal.

[MortalEngines]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, there are no valid comparisons with that analogy. Anders is trying to put an end to slavery, not using religion for malevolent purposes. Whether you think he was right or wrong, that was his goal.

His goal may have been honourable but his method was far from it.

[OmegaBlue0231]

I think since Hawke is left to sort it out and decide who will win Templars or Mages they should probably share that honor since they each played their part.

[AlexXIV]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

I think since Hawke is left to sort it out and decide who will win Templars or Mages they should probably share that honor since they each played their part.

Just that Hawke doesn't decide that. If Hawke sides with the mages, the templars win. If Hawke sides with the templars, the templars win.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 07:46 .

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, there are no valid comparisons with that analogy. Anders is trying to put an end to slavery, not using religion for malevolent purposes. Whether you think he was right or wrong, that was his goal.

You clearly do not understand Bin Laden, or the comparison.  So, let me explain it to you, from my point of view:

It's not whether it involves religion.  It's about a man (Anders in DA2, Bin Laden in the RW) who believes his people are being oppressed by someone.  Doesn't matter that it's slavery in Anders case, or being kept from prosperity in Bin Laden's case.  They both believe there is oppression by some organization - the Chantry for Anders, the US, UN and western civilations for Bin Laden.

Bin Laden uses religion to gather supporters, who engage in acts of terrorism, which involve blowing up trains, buses, and buildings, killing thousands of innocent people in the process.

Anders lies to Hawke to have Hawke help him find ingrediants for a bomb, which he uses to blow up a building full of innocents.

The instant that Chantry blew, my first thought was "WTF??  The Chanttry is the World Trade Center???"

Get it now?  Because frankly, this hits home for me, intended or not by Bioware, and while I'll gladly continue discussing Anders' actions, I will not discuss Bin Laden or 9/11 on this board any further.

[efrgfhnm_]

I think his aim was just to either get the mages to uprise out of fear of being slaughtered or to get them all killed and spare them a draw out fate, so he achieved his goal.
However, the war was inevitable, but Hawke was the one who wiped out the leaders of both sides, as well as the Arishok, and was the one who got the idol which drove Meredith crazy and sparked the whole thing

[LobselVith8]

TJPags, stop using a poor analogy. The theatrical example doesn't work on any level. Considering Anders attacked a religious institution that has been terrorizing mages, raping and torturing them, and killing them, I could turn this situation around and say he attacked a group who have been terrorizing mages for centuries. Considering how many dead mages lay at the Chantry's feet, it's not even remotely the same comparison.

[DarkSpider88]

TheDarkRats wrote...

A dead crazy man isn't very important.

this

[sonofalich]

i killed him, so now i'm the most important.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, stop using a poor analogy. The theatrical example doesn't work on any level. Considering Anders attacked a religious institution that has been terrorizing mages, raping and torturing them, and killing them, I could turn this situation around and say he attacked a group who have been terrorizing mages for centuries. Considering how many dead mages lay at the Chantry's feet, it's not even remotely the same comparison.

You don't get it, I'm not explaining it again.  Back to Anders.

Explain to me how all the innocent people in that Chantry - and I've listed them so many times I don't need to anymore - deserved to be blown to hell.

Go ahead.  Do that, and I'll gladly continue discussing this with you.  Otherwise, if all you want to do is claim that rumors of terrorizing mages, raping them, torturing them, and killing them is fact, and not something planted by Anders, I'll just politely cease discussion with you.

[Dante Angelo]

Alathin wrote...

I think Anders should be renamed to Anders 2.0 because of the whole Justice/ Vengance thingy.

I think Anders should be called "Anders" because the DA:II to Anders isn't the Anders I remember I liked him better when he was voiced by Greg Ellis. I ended up killing him in the end and I always will kill him in the end. Believe it or not he used to be one of my favorite characters now he's one of my most hated characters. Now my favorite character is Varric.

[AlexXIV]

sonofalich wrote...

i killed him, so now i'm the most important.

LOL

Well you killed him too late though.

[AtreiyaN7]

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

[Arppis]

sonofalich wrote...

i killed him, so now i'm the most important.

"Nobody is going to steal my thunder, YOU HEAR!?" 
*Slit throath* 
"...nobody..."

But seriously, he was undermining my character's efforts and killed someone who was actualy trying to bring peace in the Chantry. I just couldn't let him go unpunished, there was no way. It was pretty hard though, Anders was only healer I had left and he was Hawke's friend. But he abused that trust, so there you go.

I still sided with mages. That was simply because mages were oppressed under templar rule and they didn't give them almost any quarter.

Modifié par Arppis, 13 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[Augustei]

Arbalest7 wrote...

 I mean he's the one who decisively and actively changed the face of the world forever. All Hawke can do is passively join the cause or fail to clean up his mess. 

Well in my game Anders is face down in a ditch so I doubt he is that important

[LobselVith8]

TJPags, you're welcome to think the templars pee rainbows and poop puppies for all I care. Anders put an end to slavery, that's sufficient for me.

[AlexXIV]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

Well they take Hawke's sister to the Circle despite the fact she was always with my Hawke, just not in the deeproads, and they let Anders roam free because he knows the Champion? Not likely. I didn't even have a friendship thing going, the only thing I ever did for him was the part in the main quest that could not be avoided.