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[TJPags]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

So true.

Was there a "toss Anders to the Templars" option in this game?  I'm guessing no.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, you're welcome to think the templars pee rainbows and poop puppies for all I care. Anders put an end to slavery, that's sufficient for me.

We don't know what he put an end to though. Depends how the war goes I guess. He will probably be revered as a sort of hero or martyr by many mages though. You know, I don't believe that the ends justify the means. If it was so, then you could as well use that as an apology for the templars. Thing is what Anders, or Justice/Vengeance did was bad. Really bad. Maybe something good comes from it, who knows. But I really hate the idea that blowing up buildings and killing innocents is the way to get things right.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 08:28 .

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, you're welcome to think the templars pee rainbows and poop puppies for all I care. Anders put an end to slavery, that's sufficient for me.

I don't think they do that at all.  I think Meredith is a lunatic, and needs to be put down like a rabid dog.  I think some Templars are probably nuts, too, not even counting the lyrium addicts.
 
But I've yet to find proof of their supposed atrocities - I did ask you to point them out to me, which you have not - while I did see blood mages running amok throughout Kirkwall.
 
I also asked you to explain why killing all those innocent people in the Chantry was acceptable.  You haven't done that, either.
 
So, clearly, you like Anders, and/or you think mages are wonderful people who should be allowed to do whatever they like, no matter who it hurts.  So be it.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, you're welcome to think the templars pee rainbows and poop puppies for all I care. Anders put an end to slavery, that's sufficient for me.

I don't think they do that at all.  I think Meredith is a lunatic, and needs to be put down like a rabid dog.  I think some Templars are probably nuts, too, not even counting the lyrium addicts.
 
But I've yet to find proof of their supposed atrocities - I did ask you to point them out to me, which you have not - while I did see blood mages running amok throughout Kirkwall.
 
I also asked you to explain why killing all those innocent people in the Chantry was acceptable.  You haven't done that, either.
 
So, clearly, you like Anders, and/or you think mages are wonderful people who should be allowed to do whatever they like, no matter who it hurts.  So be it.

Because you see the bloodmages crimes but not the templars crimes. Would be silly if templars were running around in the street and killing innocents for the lulz. They do it in their hidden templar places and sanctioned by the chantry. I was almost expecting that when they took Bethany I would only see her again as a tranquil. But luckily she is a smart enough girl to not do anything stupid.

[LobselVith8]

You want to pretend that Anders fabricated everything wrong with the Templars, TJPags. That's fine. It's not my responsibility or concern to convince you otherwise, your entitled to think whatever you like. What point is there in pointing out the high rate of death at the Harrowings or how multiple templars were fought in Anders quest to uncover the Tranquility Solution, how Anders' friend begged for death over continued life as a tranquil, how the Templar said he would rape the Mage as a tranquil, how no templar originally contests the order for the Rite when Meredith has no legal right to call for it without the Chantry's authority, because nothing is going to change your mind. So be it.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, you're welcome to think the templars pee rainbows and poop puppies for all I care. Anders put an end to slavery, that's sufficient for me.

I don't think they do that at all.  I think Meredith is a lunatic, and needs to be put down like a rabid dog.  I think some Templars are probably nuts, too, not even counting the lyrium addicts.
 
But I've yet to find proof of their supposed atrocities - I did ask you to point them out to me, which you have not - while I did see blood mages running amok throughout Kirkwall.
 
I also asked you to explain why killing all those innocent people in the Chantry was acceptable.  You haven't done that, either.
 
So, clearly, you like Anders, and/or you think mages are wonderful people who should be allowed to do whatever they like, no matter who it hurts.  So be it.

Because you see the bloodmages crimes but not the templars crimes. Would be silly if templars were running around in the street and killing innocents for the lulz. They do it in their hidden templar places and sanctioned by the chantry. I was almost expecting that when they took Bethany I would only see her again as a tranquil. But luckily she is a smart enough girl to not do anything stupid.

Yet I can't investigate any of this so-called abuse.  I can't visit my sister, can't ask about her, can't send her a message.  I get one letter from her, telling me she's HAPPY in the Circle, except for Alrik - who I kill later on.  I get a letter from her friend, who's life I saved, telling me SHE'S happy.

I hear rumors.  I hear Anders' suspicions.  There is nothing in the game - except Alrik - to support that, and Alrik is killed, and when I ask about him, I'm told he was acting on his own.  When I ask about the so-called Tranquil Solution, I'm told - by Elfinna - it was proposed and rejected, and not even Meredith is supporting it.

I don't decide things on unfounded rumors - I decide on evidence in front of me.  I can't credit the rumors of Templar atrocities when I don't see it, can't find it, don't have anyone willing to admit to it.  I find no secret notes, no hidden meetings of currupt Templars.  Hell, Thrask - a Templar - helps me let mages go free.  Tries to let my sister go.  It's a mage who stops him - a mage Thrask and I let go, who tries to kill my bound sister, and me.

Game problem, not my problem.  I see evidence of blood mages, no evidence of evil Templars.  If - as I did - I get the vibe that Anders himself is starting these rumors and spreading this dissension, where is the evidence otherwise?

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You want to pretend that Anders fabricated everything wrong with the Templars, TJPags. That's fine. It's not my responsibility or concern to convince you otherwise, your entitled to think whatever you like. What point is there in pointing out the high rate of death at the Harrowings or how multiple templars were fought in Anders quest to uncover the Tranquility Solution, how Anders' friend begged for death over continued life as a tranquil, how the Templar said he would rape the Mage as a tranquil, how no templar originally contests the order for the Rite when Meredith has no legal right to call for it without the Chantry's authority, because nothing is going to change your mind. So be it.

1.  What's the death rate in Harrowings?  Show me the figure.

2.  I was breaking into the Chantry at night to free a mage, who, by the way, had told the Templars we were coming.  What did you expect, a clean getaway?

3.  The Tranquil Solution was discredited by Templars, and by the Grand Cleric.

4.  What did Karl do to be made tranquil?  Do you know the circumstances of that?  Please, tell me.

5.  I killed that Templar  - and other than him, my own sister said the Templars are nice.  So did her friend, the one we saved in that quest.

6.  I'm pretty sure Cullen did exactly that, but was overridden by Meredith.  And while she may need Chantry authority, ummm, your saint and savior BLEW IT TO HELL!!!! 

No, it's not your job to find me any proof - it's the games job to do that.  The game failed.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You want to pretend that Anders fabricated everything wrong with the Templars, TJPags. That's fine. It's not my responsibility or concern to convince you otherwise, your entitled to think whatever you like. What point is there in pointing out the high rate of death at the Harrowings or how multiple templars were fought in Anders quest to uncover the Tranquility Solution, how Anders' friend begged for death over continued life as a tranquil, how the Templar said he would rape the Mage as a tranquil, how no templar originally contests the order for the Rite when Meredith has no legal right to call for it without the Chantry's authority, because nothing is going to change your mind. So be it.

Exaclty why Meredith needs to be ousted for instilling teaching this idealogy to the templars under her. But at the same time there are many logical thinking and sympathetic templars who don't agree with the way Meredith runs the organization. There's also a ****-ton of blood mages and abominations running about Kirkwall, but it wouldn't be fair to cull all the mages for the actions of what is most likely a vocal minority. It's a bit hypocritical to extend that mentality to the mages but then turn around and paint all the templars with the same brush.

[_purifico_]

Anders would have been the best written character i game if he were not Anders. But, alas, he is,. Which means he just has a heavy case of character derailment - nothing "best" about that. Very disappointing actually.
Other than that yes, I agree that he is even more important than Hawke to the story ,or at least is as important as Howke.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...
Game problem, not my problem.  I see evidence of blood mages, no evidence of evil Templars.  If - as I did - I get the vibe that Anders himself is starting these rumors and spreading this dissension, where is the evidence otherwise?

Well I agree, obviously Bioware had a focus on telling how dangerous and evil magic is. Or at least Bloodmages. Totally over the top in my opinion, but what can we do? We saw Anders' friend who was made tranquil and obviously would rather die. So question is why are mages made tranquil if they would rather die. Isn't really something I can support. Especially since his untranquil personality did seem totality different than his tranquil one. He was just man made into a robot or something. That's evil.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[AtreiyaN7]

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

Well they take Hawke's sister to the Circle despite the fact she was always with my Hawke, just not in the deeproads, and they let Anders roam free because he knows the Champion? Not likely. I didn't even have a friendship thing going, the only thing I ever did for him was the part in the main quest that could not be avoided.

Yes, but I had a romance with him, and he was living in my house. Meredith even brought up the fact that it was his association with my Hawke that protected him. I don't remember the exact wording, but he was kind of mouthing off to Meredith during one of our conversations.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Game problem, not my problem.  I see evidence of blood mages, no evidence of evil Templars.  If - as I did - I get the vibe that Anders himself is starting these rumors and spreading this dissension, where is the evidence otherwise?

Well I agree, obviously Bioware had a focus on telling how dangerous and evil magic is. Or at least Bloodmages. Totally over the top in my opinion, but what can we do? We saw Anders' friend who was made tranquil and obviously would rather die. So question is why are mages made tranquil if they would rather die. Isn't really something I can support. Especially since his untranquil personality did seem totality different than his tranquil one. He was just man made into a robot or something. That's evil.

Yes, I agree in part here.

Problem is, as I asked either earlier in this thread or in a different one, why was he made Tranquil?  We don't really know, do we?  He could have been repeatedly escaping, like Anders.  He could have been an agitator.  He could have been dabbling in blood magic.

Yes, he seems an okay dude in the brief glimpse we got of him - but Orsino seemed pretty cool, too . . until he went all Harvester on us.

Game failed.

I should probably mention - I have before, not sure where - that I did actually side with the mages, but the only reason I did so was because Meredith wanted to Annul the Circle after Anders blew up the Chantry, rather than actually kill or arrest him.  So, I couldn't stand for that.

[ExiledMimic]

schalafi wrote...

Anders was, in my opinion, the best written character in the game.

Actually I liked Bethany more.  But if it's a choice between Anders (who is nothing like his previous self from Awakenings) and Bethany (gone for 70% of the game) then you know there is fail sailing in this game.  And for once it's not Isabella's fault.

[AlexXIV]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

Well they take Hawke's sister to the Circle despite the fact she was always with my Hawke, just not in the deeproads, and they let Anders roam free because he knows the Champion? Not likely. I didn't even have a friendship thing going, the only thing I ever did for him was the part in the main quest that could not be avoided.

Yes, but I had a romance with him, and he was living in my house. Meredith even brought up the fact that it was his association with my Hawke that protected him. I don't remember the exact wording, but he was kind of mouthing off to Meredith during one of our conversations.

She didn't say that to me. She said I should deal with him after he blew up the Chantry because he is my companion though, after which I killed him ...

Because I really don't know how he can be my companion if I avoided him as much as possible.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Game problem, not my problem.  I see evidence of blood mages, no evidence of evil Templars.  If - as I did - I get the vibe that Anders himself is starting these rumors and spreading this dissension, where is the evidence otherwise?

Well I agree, obviously Bioware had a focus on telling how dangerous and evil magic is. Or at least Bloodmages. Totally over the top in my opinion, but what can we do? We saw Anders' friend who was made tranquil and obviously would rather die. So question is why are mages made tranquil if they would rather die. Isn't really something I can support. Especially since his untranquil personality did seem totality different than his tranquil one. He was just man made into a robot or something. That's evil.

Yes, I agree in part here.

Problem is, as I asked either earlier in this thread or in a different one, why was he made Tranquil?  We don't really know, do we?  He could have been repeatedly escaping, like Anders.  He could have been an agitator.  He could have been dabbling in blood magic.

Yes, he seems an okay dude in the brief glimpse we got of him - but Orsino seemed pretty cool, too . . until he went all Harvester on us.

Game failed.

I should probably mention - I have before, not sure where - that I did actually side with the mages, but the only reason I did so was because Meredith wanted to Annul the Circle after Anders blew up the Chantry, rather than actually kill or arrest him.  So, I couldn't stand for that.

Well if they have the choice to kill the mages or make them tranquil, and mages would rather be dead than tranquil and they still make them tranquil after which they turn into obidient pets then something smells fishy about that.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 mars 2011 - 09:28 .

[Dave of Canada]

Anders was a revolutionary terrorist who used extreme means to create a war amongst two factions, he may have his part in history but aside from starting the war he isn't much of an icon amongst the people. Templars / Mages respect Hawke and that's why Cassandra is looking for him/her, I doubt a lot of mages would respect Anders because of his extremist ways. Anders is better off dead.

Also I don't see how the comparisons to Al Queda and stuff as being a poor analogy, mind explaining that to me? They both have their goals, they both think they are being oppressed and they both fight back using extremes believing themselves in the right.

[nos_astra]

TheDarkRats wrote...

A dead crazy man isn't very important.

My thoughts exactly.

[Melra]

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

Well they take Hawke's sister to the Circle despite the fact she was always with my Hawke, just not in the deeproads, and they let Anders roam free because he knows the Champion? Not likely. I didn't even have a friendship thing going, the only thing I ever did for him was the part in the main quest that could not be avoided.

Yes, but I had a romance with him, and he was living in my house. Meredith even brought up the fact that it was his association with my Hawke that protected him. I don't remember the exact wording, but he was kind of mouthing off to Meredith during one of our conversations.

She didn't say that to me. She said I should deal with him after he blew up the Chantry because he is my companion though, after which I killed him ...

Because I really don't know how he can be my companion if I avoided him as much as possible.

She says that being friend of Hawke's has been protecting him so far, though Hawke was a nobody during Act 1 and I doubt they talked much about him, while he was away. So they had their chances, though Anders is more than likely, more powerful than Bethany.

And Bethany wasn't able to stay hidden as well. I don't know how it goes, if you leave your sibling onto the surface, I've played through twice and have seen the other two sides of the coin so far. So, if she's taken after Hawke comes back, then my argument is invalid. 

[Kemor]

TheDarkRats wrote...

A dead crazy man isn't very important.

Actually, dead crazy men are usually used as martyrs for zealots (Anders say that himself when you kill him) and they end up changing a LOT of things. Anders could actually be used, for ages, like a symbol, pretty much like Andraste is by the Chantry.

Also wouldn't be too surprised to see some kind of new religion develop from this among mages, where they try to re-create mergers between spirits and mages.

[AtreiyaN7]

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Yes, but I had a romance with him, and he was living in my house. Meredith even brought up the fact that it was his association with my Hawke that protected him. I don't remember the exact wording, but he was kind of mouthing off to Meredith during one of our conversations.

She didn't say that to me. She said I should deal with him after he blew up the Chantry because he is my companion though, after which I killed him ...

Because I really don't know how he can be my companion if I avoided him as much as possible.

I think it happened during the quest to find the three apostates and bring them in. I killed two of them and let the other guy go. Anders then got lippy during one of the conversations and received a verbal smackdown from Meredith. However, I could be wrong about when it happened since I'm operating on three hours of sleep atm.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 13 mars 2011 - 09:38 .

[TJPags]

Melrache wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The only reason Anders was able to get away with so much for so long, including the destruction of the Chantry, is that he was friends with Hawke and had an unusual amount of freedom for an apostate. Without her and her position as Champion, Anders probably would not have been able to pull it off. I suspect that he would probably have been arrested and made Tranquil long before he decided to blow up the Chantry.

Ugh, after he admitted that there was no potion to cure his condition, I had the sinking feeling that he might just be whipping up a bomb. I knew that sela petra had to be a reference to salt peter, but I just didn't want to believe that Anders would go that far - stupid romance. *sigh* Yes, I have a weakness for blonde mages, what can I say? Anyhow, Anders played a major role, but it was Hawke who set everything in motion.with her actions in Kirkwall.

Well they take Hawke's sister to the Circle despite the fact she was always with my Hawke, just not in the deeproads, and they let Anders roam free because he knows the Champion? Not likely. I didn't even have a friendship thing going, the only thing I ever did for him was the part in the main quest that could not be avoided.

Yes, but I had a romance with him, and he was living in my house. Meredith even brought up the fact that it was his association with my Hawke that protected him. I don't remember the exact wording, but he was kind of mouthing off to Meredith during one of our conversations.

She didn't say that to me. She said I should deal with him after he blew up the Chantry because he is my companion though, after which I killed him ...

Because I really don't know how he can be my companion if I avoided him as much as possible.

She says that being friend of Hawke's has been protecting him so far, though Hawke was a nobody during Act 1 and I doubt they talked much about him, while he was away. So they had their chances, though Anders is more than likely, more powerful than Bethany.

And Bethany wasn't able to stay hidden as well. I don't know how it goes, if you leave your sibling onto the surface, I've played through twice and have seen the other two sides of the coin so far. So, if she's taken after Hawke comes back, then my argument is invalid. 

She's being taken as you come back - you literally walk in the door as the Templars are taking her away.

I didn't mind, as Hawke really wasn't all that important during Act 1 . . .it's only in Act 2 Hawke seems to have some status.

[Lord of Mu]

Anders wanted to prevent a compromise, the only way to do this was to make a massive declaration of war.

I'm stuck trying to answer this question, are the mages becoming blood mages because of the way the templars are treating them or are the mages simply playing everyone and calming innocent?

From what I have seen so far the latter seems to be true. I spared a lot of mages who later turned out to be blood mages.

[Dave of Canada]

Lord of Mu wrote...

From what I have seen so far the latter seems to be true. I spared a lot of mages who later turned out to be blood mages.

Aside from like... two exceptions, every single time you have a choice to side with mages then you're going to find out they are blood mages and are unstable. It made me laugh.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mars 2011 - 11:46 .

[TJPags]

Lord of Mu wrote...

Anders wanted to prevent a compromise, the only way to do this was to make a massive declaration of war.

I'm stuck trying to answer this question, are the mages becoming blood mages because of the way the templars are treating them or are the mages simply playing everyone and calming innocent?

From what I have seen so far the latter seems to be true. I spared a lot of mages who later turned out to be blood mages.

I question how badly the mages are actually being treated.  Anders is the one who tells you about the Tranquil Solution, and IMO, he's the source of a lot of the mages being treated badly rumors.  I wonder if it's actually true.

On the other hand, like you said, 9 of every 10 mages seems to be an insane blood mage.

[The Cannibal Factory]

"So shouldn't Anders be the most important person in Thedas?"

I have to admit, at the end when we hear that all the Circles have fallen, the Templars are rebelling and the Chantry is apparently trying to fight back.... I wondered if we'd get any Anders Cults in DA3!

Like, pockets of underground Mages (a la Kolgrim's cult) who believe Anders is the "true prophet of the Maker" or some sort of Saviour figure. The name is quite close to 'Andraste' after all. She started a war and a revolution too...

I would like that just for the lulz. "He healed 500 people with a single wave of his hand!"... "He could touch the Fade and cure mages of their Tranquility!"... "He was beloved of the Hero of Ferelden AND the Champion of Kirkwall"... etc etc...

Come on, it would be hilarious, considering how we, the gamer, know the truth....

Modifié par Lady Vengeance, 14 mars 2011 - 12:11 .