179 réponses à ce sujet

[toggled]

I am replying to the OP; I didn't bother reading the numerous other replies.

My mage is level 8-9, and I find tactics (on the PC) to be meaningless. I play on Hard difficulty; a couple of times I've had to bump that down to Normal, mainly because my companions keep running off willy nilly for unknown reasons instead of focusing fire. The game is hack & slash to me.

[TJPags]

Aermas wrote...

CAN ANYONE GIVE EXAMPLES OF TACTICS???

Apparently not.

I keep seeing posts about how you need to use "tactics".  I keep hearing about whether an RPG does or does not require you to use "tactics".

I've yet to see anyone explain what they mean.

Personally, I think it means pausing every 3 seconds to micromanage everything your companions do.

And if that's true, I'm glad I don't use "tactics".

[Melness]

Brenus wrote...

Melness wrote...

Darji wrote...

Yeah you maybe can play it like that but you dont need to. In DA2 on the other hand its the only way for many fights

I beg to differ. I can't imagine other way to get through a group of dire wolves on the beginning with only Imoen and another ranged character.

In the end-game though, kiting is a way to make the game more interactive. I'd say things get really easy after the Cloakwood Mines, with a Minsc that one-shots monsters like crazy and all that stuff.

I managed just fine without kite festing BG1.

I cant remember coming across dire wolfs before I already had a party consisting of My character, Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, and optionally Xzar and Monatron.

Also, the idea is that you level up a bit before fighting difficult enemies.

I think there was one near the diamond on the first map. And another near that suicidal npc.

[Brenus]

Melness wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Melness wrote...

Darji wrote...

Yeah you maybe can play it like that but you dont need to. In DA2 on the other hand its the only way for many fights

I beg to differ. I can't imagine other way to get through a group of dire wolves on the beginning with only Imoen and another ranged character.

In the end-game though, kiting is a way to make the game more interactive. I'd say things get really easy after the Cloakwood Mines, with a Minsc that one-shots monsters like crazy and all that stuff.

I managed just fine without kite festing BG1.

I cant remember coming across dire wolfs before I already had a party consisting of My character, Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, and optionally Xzar and Monatron.

Also, the idea is that you level up a bit before fighting difficult enemies.

I think there was one near the diamond on the first map. And another near that suicidal npc.

Dire wolves were the red ones if I remember. The first ones I came across were nearer to the temple area next to Beregost. I cant remember a single on on the first map where its just you and Imoen, only regular 65 exp wolves which were easy.

Also, I've soloed BG1 + BG2 using a Kensai / Mage dual class starting at level 1, and they cant use ranged weapons at all, so your point that BG = a kite fest is obviously false.

Modifié par Brenus, 13 mars 2011 - 07:40 .

[flushfire]

Melness wrote...
I think there was one near the diamond on the first map. And another near that suicidal npc.

I think we can all agree that it was not a kite fest. Saying that implies that in most fights esp. bosses you had to kite or not get through at all.

[Taxonomical]

Elton John is dead wrote...

People are saying DA2 is just hack and slash, I have no idea what game they're playing then (probably The Witcher) because tactics do come into play in DA2. If they do indeed own DA2, they probably play on casual. They should try the higher difficulties before saying that no tactics are needed because I certainly remember using tactics to win many fights and using certain abilities to disable enemies.

When did you get into CRPGs? 4 years ago?

Call me when you've played the SSI Goldbox games little boy, and we'll talk tactics.

[Ascorius]

Brenus wrote...

Melness wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Melness wrote...

Darji wrote...

Yeah you maybe can play it like that but you dont need to. In DA2 on the other hand its the only way for many fights

I beg to differ. I can't imagine other way to get through a group of dire wolves on the beginning with only Imoen and another ranged character.

In the end-game though, kiting is a way to make the game more interactive. I'd say things get really easy after the Cloakwood Mines, with a Minsc that one-shots monsters like crazy and all that stuff.

I managed just fine without kite festing BG1.

I cant remember coming across dire wolfs before I already had a party consisting of My character, Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, and optionally Xzar and Monatron.

Also, the idea is that you level up a bit before fighting difficult enemies.

I think there was one near the diamond on the first map. And another near that suicidal npc.

Dire wolves were the red ones if I remember. The first ones I came across were nearer to the temple area next to Beregost. I cant remember a single on on the first map where its just you and Imoen, only regular 65 exp wolves which were easy.

Also, I've soloed BG1 + BG2 using a Kensai / Mage dual class starting at level 1, and they cant use ranged weapons at all, so your point that BG = a kite fest is obviously false.

Ooh you also soloed with a kensai/mage? Over powered combination, but fun. Its actually nice to have the option to create a hero like that (Sorcerer was also fun to solo with). I know this was off topic, but I just had to mention it.

[Melness]

Brenus wrote...

Dire wolves were the red ones if I remember. The first ones I came across were nearer to the temple area next to Beregost. I cant remember a single on on the first map where its just you and Imoen, only regular 65 exp wolves which were easy.

Also, I've soloed BG1 + BG2 using a Kensai / Mage dual class starting at level 1, and they cant use ranged weapons at all, so your point that BG = a kite fest is obviously false.

Dire Wolves and Dread Wolves, I think, were orange. Vampiric Wolves were dark red. But I assure you there are Dire Wolves on the first map.

Saying that Baldur's Gate is a kite fest is as unreasonable as to say that DA2 is the same. In both games, hitting and running is a viable tactic, depending on the playstyle and party composition it may even be the way to go (I still remember some Drizz't killing strategies that relied on them).

Besides, as much as I loved to solo Baldur's Gate with a Kensage/Sorcerer/Wild Mage (the last one I just tried, never finished BG2 with it), its hardly a nice way to measure the game at all. Its like saying that the Baldur's Gate series were a painfully easy series because you could do a no-reload run with certain foreknowledge of the game.

Modifié par Melness, 13 mars 2011 - 07:48 .

[Grovermancer]

Elton John is dead wrote...

People are saying DA2 is just hack and slash, I have no idea what game they're playing then (probably The Witcher) because tactics do come into play in DA2. If they do indeed own DA2, they probably play on casual. They should try the higher difficulties before saying that no tactics are needed because I certainly remember using tactics to win many fights and using certain abilities to disable enemies.

HERE is why I say the combat looks, feels, and plays like the typical shallow, mindless, twitch-based, hack n' slash console garbage.

The only reason one isn't constantly mashing a button is because it has auto-attack.


(so what if you occasionally pause and click a power icon -- so what?  That doesn't change every other aspect of the combat)

Modifié par Grovermancer, 13 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Brenus]

I didnt call DA2 a kite fest though, I called it a hack and slash without a top down tactical view.

[AlanC9]

Brenus wrote...
Also, I've soloed BG1 + BG2 using a Kensai / Mage dual class starting at level 1, and they cant use ranged weapons at all, so your point that BG = a kite fest is obviously false.

Depends on the definition of "kite fest." If "kite fest" mans that kiting is a very useful tactic throughout the game, it's still true. If "kite fest" means that successful players need to kite, it's false.

[sonofalich]

it felt very press a button and something awesome happens to me. as long as i had a mage in the party, there was no need for tactics.

[Paul Sedgmore]

TJSolo wrote...


"1- DA2 uses the same rule system (slightly modified) as DA:O it is just hidden from view"
Removing all saves from spells and talents, resetting all cooldowns at the end of a fight, and giving a 1 to 1 bonus to each point placed into attributes are not just slightly modified DnD rules.

"2- the only thing you can't change is their armour, you have the same amount of control over them in DA:O"
I can't get Fenris to pick up a sword and shield or Izzy to even touch a bow.

I have no comment for the BG stuff because I never played it.

1- It uses the same rules as DA:O which weren't D&D rules but where similar

2- no you can't give them types of weapons they aren't trained in but you can change the weapons from thier defult weapons to another of the same type

[Melness]

Brenus wrote...

I didnt call DA2 a kite fest though, I called it a hack and slash without a top down tactical view.

I know, I did so to install a trap. Baldur's Gate isn't a kitefest not because kiting was impossible, but because it was not required. In fact, kiting was very much effective. Same deal with DA2.

This same principle goes over to many other factors.

Grovermancer wrote...

(so what if you occasionally pause and click a power icon -- so what?  That doesn't change every other aspect of the combat)

If I got it right, your post only complains about animations. Well, if every other aspect of combat equals to the animations... then some legendary classics really sucked.

Especially the tabletop games. Their graphics aren't even consistent over every player of the campaign, which sees something different and quite potentially unrealistic! The Horror!

Modifié par Melness, 13 mars 2011 - 08:00 .

[Morroian]

cosgamer wrote...

This will confuse some of you. The reason people are incensed over DA 2 is that we were promised a quality, more traditional rpg experience and then it turns out they lied

Every change to the game from DAO was revealed by the devs and discussed here so how exactly did they lie?

[Seitur]

First of all it is not combat which makes an rpg. Even most tactical game that will lack certain elements will not be an RPG. Becaue if not Close Combat or Jagged Alliance could be said to be be rpg's too...

That's what is one of mine greatest accusations towards DA2 (and to some degree even DA:O) there is too much combat! To make things worse combat is DA2 is extremely repetetive , boring and imho badly designed. And there is way too much of it because it provides filler role instead of other content. Thus adding to boredom.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Brenus wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Statistics dont make an RPG.

DA2 is NOT an RPG.

NWN was complete **** compared to BG and Planescape Torment, but it was still 100x better than DA2.

Well the fact you call NWN rubbish pretty much says everything. Did you even enjoy Origins? Statistics do make an RPG as does the character customization which DAII offers. Now tell me, what do YOU think makes an RPG? Did you enjoy The Witcher by any chance?

I didnt call NWN rubbish, I enjoyed it and DAO.

Read the post again with your brain switched on and try to make sense of what it meant.

And you haven't answered my question. Obviously you don't know what an RPG is. How old are you Brenus?

Older than you that I actually know what an RPG is, and that DA2 isnt one.

What is an RPG then? You still haven't said. If you are older than me (you don't even know my age so your logic fails) then start acting like it.

Baldurs Gate 1 + 2, The Elder Scrolls series, and the Ultima series are a few examples of RPGs.

DA2 is not anything the same.

Role-playing video games use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics as early pen-and-paper role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons.[2] Generally, the player controls a small number of game characters, usually called a party, and achieves victory by completing a series of quests and reaching the conclusion of a central storyline. Players explore a game world, while solving puzzles and engaging in tactical combat. 

Please, TES contains as much combat as DA2. It doesn't contain any tactics either or party members either. RPG's are about creating a character, leveling him/her up and even developing a personality for them as well as their own goals and beliefs. It's called role playing because you're creating a fictional character and playing as them. In DA2, we can choose Hawke's beliefs, gender, first name, who she/he hates and what he/she likes. That's role playing because we are still creating a character.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Taxonomical wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

People are saying DA2 is just hack and slash, I have no idea what game they're playing then (probably The Witcher) because tactics do come into play in DA2. If they do indeed own DA2, they probably play on casual. They should try the higher difficulties before saying that no tactics are needed because I certainly remember using tactics to win many fights and using certain abilities to disable enemies.

When did you get into CRPGs? 4 years ago?

Call me when you've played the SSI Goldbox games little boy, and we'll talk tactics.

Longer back. You're the one who is probably a little boy considering your immaturity.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 13 mars 2011 - 08:09 .

[skan5]

I think what people are getting is that for most of the fights, it's really the same. You have your tank (whoever or whatever class that may be) round the enemies up and grab aggro, and your other members simply stand there and blast them away.

The only thing that changes is moving your squishy characters out of reach from the wave spawns, and your tank goes and grabs them all, then repeat.

Going through nightmare, I've found very little need to do anything different than this. Yes, I pause and issue orders a lot, but I'm issuing the same orders for every fight. I think in the end, for many people, the fights are just a process of repeating the same thing over and over again.

There are some fights, I feel, that break this up, but for the vast majority of them, I'm finding them all the be the same. If we had more conditions for the Tactics Slots (like, "Self: Any enemy within short distance"), I think I could honestly set them up so I never have to pause, even on Nightmare.

[Eternal Phoenix]

flushfire wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Well the fact you call NWN rubbish pretty much says everything. Did you even enjoy Origins? Statistics do make an RPG as does the character customization which DAII offers. Now tell me, what do YOU think makes an RPG? Did you enjoy The Witcher by any chance? You've just joined and have no games registered...have you even played Origins? lol

This is true, The Witcher is not a cRPG like people claim because you cannot rename Geralt. You cannot even choose a class! You are always just a witcher L0Lz where is the role in that? And what is with this choices and consequences bull***? That is not what a RPG is about L0L0L elitists talk like they actually know what it is.

That is why Betrayal at Krondor, critically acclaimed until today and usually included in top cRPG lists of all time, is actually not a RPG! They are just old-timers that do not realize they are limited by the technology at the time.

The Witcher is an action RPG with POOR skill trees and no stat points. You can't control what you want Geralt to be and all builds turn out the same in the end anyway. Combat is based on dodging and combat styles not anything else. You can't choose Geralt's religion, personality and he's always horny and has a boner. It's an action RPG.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 13 mars 2011 - 08:15 .

[Grovermancer]

Melness wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

(so what if you occasionally pause and click a power icon -- so what?  That doesn't change every other aspect of the combat)

If I got it right, your post only complains about animations. Well, if every other aspect of combat equals to the animations... then some legendary classics really sucked.

Especially the tabletop games. Their graphics aren't even consistent over every player of the campaign, which sees something different and quite potentially unrealistic! The Horror!

"Only" the combat animations?  Ie, combat.

Unrealistic combat moves.  Unrealistic in every way.  Weapons that are apparently weightless.  Hyper-fast movements that can not come from any human body.  Flashy follow-throughs.  Leaping around.  Not real, proper use of body in moves.  Moving so fast, it's hard to see what's even happening.

All of which destroys realism.  Which was at the heart of DAO in general, and backed by the combat; a gritty, dire, real world, w/ rough, effortful, realistic-looking combat.

In DA2, the combat looks like it belongs in God of Dante's Castlevania Inferno War universe.

[Eternal Phoenix]

And tactics? That's about planning not pausing and even if you're using the same tactic over again, it's still using tactics and not just you running in and hacking and slashing which would get you killed on nightmare. If this is untrue, then I want someone to post a playthrough on YouTube - nightmare difficulty with no party members. They have to finish the game just as Hawke on nightmare difficulty. If it's a hack and slash game where running away and waiting for spells and talents to recharge help, then this should be possible

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 13 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[Morroian]

Grovermancer wrote...

All of which destroys realism.  Which was at the heart of DAO in general, and backed by the combat; a gritty, dire, real world, w/ rough, effortful, realistic-looking combat.

So it was realistic in DAO to dual wield a pair of longswords like they weighed nothing? All the flicker and shadow moves of rogues were realistic?

[Morroian]

skan5 wrote...

I think what people are getting is that for most of the fights, it's really the same. You have your tank (whoever or whatever class that may be) round the enemies up and grab aggro, and your other members simply stand there and blast them away.

Thats no different to DAO which was apparently the tactical rpg that DA2 isn't. In fact DA2 is more complex in this regard with the controlling abilities that 2H warriors can access.

[Melness]

TJPags wrote...

Personally, I think it means pausing every 3 seconds to micromanage everything your companions do.

And if that's true, I'm glad I don't use "tactics".

I believe the definition of "Tactics'' are a series of techniques that you use when engaging an enemy. In these forums, there appears to be two definitions of tactics in a CRPG like DA:O. The 'Tactics Window' were you may create an AI that better reacts to a series of pre-defined situations and, pretty much what you said, micromanagement.

Well, here are somethings that I consider to be 'Tactics':

Focusing on an enemy for a given reason, meaning a combination of how aggravating they are to you and how vulnerable (read, focus on mages and archers).

Making use of positioning to take advantage of your enemies (such as exploiting Line of Sight to lure Archers).

Making use of positioning to AoE.

Either avoiding or better enduring damage (Read: kiting, tanking, warding your allies against specific kind of damage via a myriad of ways).

Making use of crowd-control spells such as Sleep.

Making use of things such as elemental weaknesses and cross class combos to deal more damage.

Pre-buffing your allies (such as a pre-emptive Lifeward).